Hindus versus Tibetan awakening

[selfonlypath]

Hi,

Tibetan tantric schools mention there are mainly 10 gates (chakras) where one can dissolve the winds (dualistic energy) into the central channel (spinal nerve aka sushumna) to awaken kundalini. The most famous and also considered the safest gate is navel chakra leading to gTummo or inner fire yoga which is the first yoga of the 6 yogas of Naropa.

There seems to be other schools who awaken kundalini through crown chakra, third eye, heart chakra, sexual chakra (Kaula) or root chakra (Tirth lineage). From what i've observed, indeed persons who got such initiation have more difficult kundalini symptoms confirming what Tibetan suggest, which is first dissolve in navel chakra then clear progressively up and down sushumna.

My question is about AYP school: through which gate does one attempt to awaken kundalini ?

Albert

[Scott]

Interesting.  I didn't know that about the Tibetan schools.

In AYP, practitioners just focus on practices and don't necessarily attempt an awakening at a certain chakra...however, awakenings will probably generally occur at the third eye, since most of the practices tend to make energy move there.

[sadhak]

Hi Selfonlypath,
Welcome to the forum. Ayp does not focus on specific chakra openings, with the approach being that each individual will take a separate route based on unfathomable need (each one comes with a unique set of karmas and samskaras/impresions). But that is an internal process, or 'under the hood'. This is disscused here:
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/47.html

If you do a search for 'chakras' in the support forum, a lot of threads will come up too.

[x.j.]

In addition to the AYP lessons here, Yogani's novel "Secrets of Wilder" will answer that question for you.

[selfonlypath]

Well, isn't a way to answer my question by a post instead of directing me towards a book ?

Besides hindus or tibetan system, i've been recently practicing quechua shamanism which is a system containing tantrism and non duality awareness. Quechua shamanism seems to do the same thing as tibetan, which is opening the navel center first called qosqo.

Please note i'm not advocating any system but rather trying to find a common procedure which is safe when dealing with an authetic spiritual awakening some call kundalini experience.

There is not such a clear and safe path between all these systems, it is tricky like this other topic has shown:
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=2516

Albert

[kadak]

Hi selfonlypath, I was the author of the thread you mention, now that I know more, I can tell 1) that tummo awakens the spinal nerve indeed, but 2) the central channel is not the spinal nerve. I posted another thread here http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=3320 about the subjet.
As for the white and red drops, indian yoga knows them well, but, as many buddhists students don't know anything about highest teachings, we can guess that many yoga students don't know the Yogachudamani Upanishad, mentioned in Satyananda's book :
http://www.eng.vedanta.ru/library/kundalini_tantra/2_bindu_visarga.php
Go to the bottom for "the red and white bindus".
But this is only the beginning. When the 2 bindus are merging, there are many things left to do. I suppose that there are further details in some Upanishads, but I don't know them, for now...
So, indian and tibetan are very close, but few people know the texts which demonstrate it. It took me much time to find them.
Satyananda's book gives a practice to trigger exactly the same thing that tummo is supposed to (now I can say it, because I went far enough in tummo to know it), with different means. But at the end, you find the same things. For example, tummo practice doesn't mention Bindu Visarga or some other points, but I found them anyway, it doesn't mention kundalini, rather "clear light", but kundalini reveals clear light... So, once you've have advanced enough in one system, you can help it with the other one.  

[selfonlypath]

Thank you so much Kadak for wisdom, time and delightful information.

If the spinal nerve is not the same as the central channel, this could explain the different risings I mentionned on this thread which you might give your personal opinion:
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=3301

By the way, I'm a bit lost: sushumna would be the spinal nerve or the central channel ?

Albert

[x.j.]

Wouldn't it be better somehow to read the core AYP teachings on this website (that shouldn't take too awfully long), the novel(which is a wonderful and insightful source of all that needs to be known about the AYP paradigm), and take it from there? Unless the author of this topic has joined us just for the cameraderie which is fine, really...

[yogibear]

Hi Albert,

According to Swami Rama, the central canal of the spinal cord or nerve is the Sushumna or at least corresponds to or is the physical representation of it.

Best, yb.

[tallis]

Exactly: I've read the same thing in numerous Indian/Hindu sources regarding sushumna corresponding to the central canal of the spinal cord.

Recently I've been reading about Tibetan practices in The Bliss of Inner Fire by Lama Yeshe and Clear Light of Bliss by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.  (By the way, thanks, Kadak, for refering to the latter in your earlier post - it's a great book.)  In both works it's clearly stated that the central channel is located in front of but does not touch the spinal column.  According to Tibetan practice, what is the role of sushumna then?

I have two more questions:

(1) Both books clearly state that the central channel moves up through the body to the throat chakra, then the crown chakra and then follows the skull forward to the third eye.  This also diverges from the AYP perspective of sushumna.  (It seems more closely related to the kriya version of spinal breathing that I know of.)  What is going on here?

(2) Tibetan practices of Tummo also rely on the left and right channels.  These seem to correspond to ida and pingala, especially in that when the two side channels are operative the central channel is dormant and vice versa.  The left and right channels, however, do not criss-cross from side to side of the body as they pass each chakra, in the way that ida and pingala do.  They wrap around each chakra, forming a knot, but (unless I am mistaken) the right channel always remains on the right side of the body, whereas the left channel remains always on the left.

Can anyone clear up these issues?
Thanks!

[Scott]

It'd make the most sense to pick one system, do the practices, and find out where these things are for yourself.  Learning it in books is absolutely useless knowledge.  Someone here could clear up the issues with their own opinions, yet you'd still have no understanding.  To quote the Hatha Yoga Pradipika:

 

quote:66. Whether young, old or too old, sick or lean, one who discards laziness, gets success if he practices Yoga.

67. Success comes to him who is engaged in the practice. How can one get success without practice; for by merely reading books on Yoga, one can never get success.

68. Success cannot be attained by adopting a particular dress (Vesa). It cannot be gained by telling tales. Practice alone is the means to success. This is true, there is no doubt.

69. asanas, various Kumbhakas, and other divine means, all should be practiced in the practice of Hatha Yoga, till the fruit of Raja Yoga is obtained.

[tallis]

Hi Scott,

Scott wrote:

quote:It'd make the most sense to pick one system, do the practices, and find out where these things are for yourself. Learning it in books is absolutely useless knowledge.

Agreed.  I, for one, do stick to one system (AYP) as far as practices go.  And I agree, knowledge from books alone is completely empty.  But that's not to say that I'm not interested in reading about other systems in my free time.  Surely, trying to learn as much as you can about other approaches will broaden your knowledge and, over the long term, will help to reduce the centuries-long isolationism between different traditions.  Surely, sharing knowledge is a good thing.  Isn't that part of what this forum is all about?

quote:Someone here could clear up the issues with their own opinions...

In a way your words prove my point.  People's points of view and the experiences they relate can remain only 'opinions' in somebody else's mind until we have enough knowledge and understanding of the context of where that person is coming from.  Otherwise, until we ultimately reach the same goal (and most of us haven't yet), we end up travelling down a thousand different roads babbling as many different languages.

[Scott]

Hey Tallis,

In no way was I saying it's wrong to discuss the similarities between systems.  Or to research the systems in books.  I was just saying that if you want to know if they are similar, then finding out for yourself is really the only way.  Because I could say: "yes they are the same, and any written differences are based on the writings of people who haven't experienced anything".  But then, what would you get out of that?  A belief that they are probably the same, yet, what if in truth they are different?  So, another person could tell you: "these two systems both work with subtle energy but utilize entirely different pathways".  That still may or may not be true.  Who finds out, and who will benefit from the knowledge?  It's only the person who practices the techniques and finds the truth about energies and the body.

So, I agree absolutely with what you've said here:

quote:But that's not to say that I'm not interested in reading about other systems in my free time. Surely, trying to learn as much as you can about other approaches will broaden your knowledge and, over the long term, will help to reduce the centuries-long isolationism between different traditions. Surely, sharing knowledge is a good thing. Isn't that part of what this forum is all about?

I also research other systems.  There's no sense in throwing our researching and thinking brains away.  They are good for making sense out of spirituality.  We can turn it into more of a science this way, instead of a mystery like it is to most people.  I do think this is what AYP is all about!

[yogani]

quote:Originally posted by Scott
I also research other systems.  There's no sense in throwing our researching and thinking brains away.  They are good for making sense out of spirituality.  We can turn it into more of a science this way, instead of a mystery like it is to most people.  I do think this is what AYP is all about!

Hi Scott:

Yes, this is the crux of it. It is the move from closed to open systems, and continual research and development on the level of the individual practitioner. Eventually this will reach the large research and educational institutions, and I am all for it. That will be when integrated spiritual practices become permanently established in the mainsteam, and AYP can be a stepping stone in that overall process. Not the end -- only a beginning for a new paradigm of ongoing development and practical applications of spiritual knowledge.

See here: http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=3267

Interdisciplinary (multi-tradition) studies and effective integrations of practice are central in the migration to open Applied Spiritual Science. That is why we encourage such discussions in the corresponding forum categories here -- exploring the full scope of practices and experiences (causes and effects) associated with the process of human spiritual transformation.

Many thanks to everyone for contributing!

The guru is in you.

[tallis]

Hi Scott - glad to hear our viewpoints aren't so dissimilar after all.  Even when we're both talking plain English, I guess sometimes we don't always speak the same language!