Hindus versus Tibetan awakening

[yogibear]

From Raja Yoga by Yesudian and Haich:

"Yoga is not a religion; it is crystallized truth. This is the reason why Yoga has remained unchanged for thousands of years. Its secrets are guarded by those who see. There is no error, nothing which, in the course of time, must be improved, corrected or changed. Among the peaks of the Himalayas there are no currents of thought subject to fashion--coming into vogue and disappearing again--for in the hearts of the yogis in their Himalayan retreat, there dwells the eternal, unchanging TRUTH itself."

Best, yb.

[sadhak]

Scott said:

quote:I was just saying that if you want to know if they are similar, then finding out for yourself is really the only way.

I suppose one has to remember the distinction between, what Aurobindo had said about the Intellect, the helper, and Intellect the barrier (or some such equivalent). Each seeker will have to assess and know when the intellect is helping and when it is hindering.

[selfonlypath]

quote:Originally posted by sadhak
I suppose one has to remember the distinction between, what Aurobindo had said about the Intellect, the helper, and Intellect the barrier (or some such equivalent). Each seeker will have to assess and know when the intellect is helping and when it is hindering.

So far, I was taught to practice grounding in conjonction with third eye and gut instinct in order to not get trapped by a trickster.

Which lesson on AYP proposes a solution and practice to develop this ego-free vision which is necessary once high levels of kundalini start to manifest unlocking very deep core inconcious blockages ?

Albert

[yogani]

quote:Originally posted by selfonlypath

 
Which lesson on AYP proposes a solution and practice to develop this ego-free vision which is necessary once high levels of kundalini start to manifest unlocking very deep core inconcious blockages ?

Hi Albert:

That is an easy one. Deep Meditation -- Lesson 13, and all related writings, including on Samyama and Self-Inquiry (new book).

This is the cultivation and expansion of inner silence/witness, which transcends and illuminates all energy experiences. Ideally, it is undertaken before kundalini awakens, but any time after will be okay too. The awakening of Silent Self is the essential ingredient on any spiritual path. Natural kundalini awakening is both facilitated by and secondary to That.    

All the best!

The guru is in you.

[yogibear]

Yogani,

Is this 'silent self' you speak of the same condition that Tolle refers to when he says that his thinking has been reduced by 80% and that his mental commentary is basically absent most of the time and he is just choicelessly aware, as Krishnamurti would put it, without any labeling of environmental phenomena occuring by the mind?

Isn't this the reverse way of saying that your mind is clear of thoughts?

The awakening of the 'silent self' is simply the quieting of the mind?

But can't a person reach a state where there is turmoil in the mind as purification is occuring and it is simply seen as that because there is no fusing of the silent self with the mental phenomena? It is seen as "not I" and there is no longer identification with it?

So there is a condition of noisy silence?

Thanks, yb.

[yogani]

Hi YB:

Silent Self (inner silence, witness), once cultivated, is abiding whether there are thoughts or not. So it is not only a condition of no-thinking, though it does give the mind a foundation in stillness, which tends to calm the mind. It is also the prerequisite for self-inquiry as described in the new AYP book on that subject.

But, no, Silent Self does not mean a condition of no thinking. Rather, it is the ground state of inspired and illuminated thinking, which is what perhaps the others are describing. Same condition, different words.

However, it is misleading to present Silent Self as a condition of "no thinking." Then people get the idea that enlightenment is about killing thinking (and desires). This is not true. Not any more true than yoga being about sitting in a yoga pose. The field of play is beyond such external things, including our thoughts and feelings. Effective yoga practices cultivate the witness without getting into a wrestling match with the mind, emotions or body. It is about going beyond all that and coming back in as Silent Self, even as all the external stuff is continuing.

Yes, once we have been meditating for a while, abiding inner silence will be there even as purification and opening are underway. At some point we begin to see our thoughts as objects separate from our Silent Self, and this is where real self-inquiry begins. It is the beginning of being able to discriminate between Self and all objects, including our thoughts, emotions, the physical environment, and the ongoing purification and opening that are occurring within us. From this point on, kundalini becomes a cakewalk, along with the rest of life.

Silence with noise -- not "noisy silence."

This is why Silent Self (the witness) is at the heart of all spiritual progress. Until we cultivate that, we will continue to be identified with external objects, beginning with our own thoughts. But it isn't our thoughts we have to get rid of. It is abiding Silent Self (witness) that we want to add. That is the result the sages are describing in one way or other, depending on their current experience and personal perspective on how they got to that condition themselves (if they know).

The real question is: How can everyone bring about this condition in themselves quickly and safely?

It is one thing to talk about enlightenment. And something else entirely to be cultivating it by effective means. Then all the answers will be coming from within, and we can give our own description. I am looking forward to hearing about it from more and more people. Bring it on!

The guru is in you.

[selfonlypath]

quote:Originally posted by yogani
The real question is: How can everyone bring about this condition in themselves quickly and safely?

Hi Yogani,

After reading your last answer, it makes me think of what tibetan sects calls rigpa or Nature of the Mind" via Dzogchen system which is considered as a secret practice as opposed to shamanism (external practice) and tantrism (internal practice).

Does AYP system provides at a certain yogic level the equivalent of Dzogchen teachings and if yes, what specific lessons adresses the self introduction to rigpa ?

Namaste, Albert

[yogani]

quote:Originally posted by selfonlypath

Hi Yogani,

After reading your last answer, it makes me think of what tibetan sects calls rigpa or Nature of the Mind" via Dzogchen system which is considered as a secret practice as opposed to shamanism (external practice) and tantrism (internal practice).

Does AYP system provides at a certain yogic level the equivalent of Dzogchen teachings and if yes, what specific lessons adresses the self introduction to rigpa ?

Namaste, Albert

Hi Albert:

That I can't tell you, not being well-versed in the Tibetan systems. Perhaps others can shed some light?

One thing I can say is that the awakening is the same regardless of the system that is being used to approach it, assuming effective means are being applied. There is only one human nervous system with its inherent profound spiritual capabilities, and once things are set in motion via practices, the process will go to the same fruition. The experiences will be of the same nature, with the descriptions colored by background, culture and religion.

A rose is still a rose when called by any other name.  

So I don't agree that there are Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, etc. awakenings. All are the same process of human spiritual transformation, stimulated by one systematic approach or another, or an evolving integration of approaches (something new) which is where all of this is going in the information age. Modern Applied Spiritual Science.

All the best!

The guru is in you.

[Shanti]

quote:Originally posted by yogibear

So there is a condition of noisy silence?

Love it.

When there is prevailing silence and purification happens.. there is turmoil.. but there is no association with the turmoil, no mind stories attached. Everyone (I think) has triggers for reactions.. I have a few.. and when no major purification is taking place, there is a sense of "nothing can touch me" even when the triggers are there.  However when there is purification happening.. and when I experience something (triggers) that would otherwise make me tense and worried and get my mind racing with stories and make me lash out and make me want to cry and make me sad or make me angry..   the body  reacts.. so, my neck and back get tight, I may get a headache.. and emotions arise.. the ego gets a hold of these emotions.. but in matter of minutes (at times even seconds) the entire thing dissolves.. its like there is nothing that can keep the ego reactions in place. The body has still not forgotten how it's supposed to react.. and this is really strange (strange because it seems like the body reactions are independent of the emotional reactions).. it's like the brain sets off the physical reactions it always did during stress.. and the mind tries to hold on to the feelings and stories arising.. but fails.. it all dissolves away into the silence.. at least this is what I experience.. and from my level this is really huge (not when it's happening.. but later when I think of how I reacted or handled a situation.. when it's happening, there is no effort involved.. the silence just does its thing) and yet so normal that I wonder how I missed it for so long. The mind is confused, so is the body.. but the silence just is.. and like Yogani says the silence moves, or like Adyashanti says, Emptiness Dances.. The silence moves to encompass whatever else is arising, you don't have to surrender (trying to surrender is a mind concept too).. there is nothing to do.. it is all done once the silence moves (that is why being in some kind of regular practice that increases your inner silence, is so important). There is no noise.. because the noise arises when the mind is active.. when the silence is active.. the noise does not have a chance to squeak.
 
The triggers too  get less and less.. even a trigger that may have bothered me all my life.. even till yesterday.. even the slightest hint of it may have send me into a downward spiral.. (purification or no purification) may not not touch me today (mentally or physically).. it's like the brain gets re-wired and that trigger loses its strength/power.. and you are left in amazement of the process.  

And yes.. there are times I catch myself not thinking (of course, the min I think "Hey! I am not thinking".. I am thinking ..).. like in meditation,  really, never did think this was possible.. but if you are not thinking of the past or worrying about the future.. there are times when you have nothing to think about.. don't ask me how this happens.. but it has something to do with the silence moving in and taking the space of the constant chatter..
 
You also find yourself able to communicate more succinctly without trying to do so.. like words that should be spoken at that time just flow. No matter how much confusion is going on around you, you stay centered and are present and your ego does not get carried away by the situation (reminds me of "the eye of the storm").. you don't react.. and soon everything around you picks up on the calm and kinda sorta settles down... and yet when you are there you are not thinking.. "Hey, wow.. look at me.. how calm I am!!!".. you only realize it later.. Then you are awestruck.. and yet don't find it necessary to tell anyone or make a big deal about it.. guess one of the paradoxes of  yoga.    
 
 
PS: Just saw Yogani's reply..  "Silence with noise -- not "noisy silence." .. perfect!!

 
 

quote:Originally posted by yogibear

Yogani,
Is this 'silent self' you speak of the same condition that Tolle refers to when he says that his thinking has been reduced by 80% and that his mental commentary is basically absent most of the time and he is just choicelessly aware, as Krishnamurti would put it, without any labeling of environmental phenomena occuring by the mind?
Isn't this the reverse way of saying that your mind is clear of thoughts?
The awakening of the 'silent self' is simply the quieting of the mind?
But can't a person reach a state where there is turmoil in the mind as purification is occuring and it is simply seen as that because there is no fusing of the silent self with the mental phenomena? It is seen as "not I" and there is no longer identification with it?
So there is a condition of noisy silence?
Thanks, yb.

[Richard]

Terrific post Shweta

 

quote:The triggers too get less and less.. even a trigger that may have bothered me all my life.. even till yesterday.. even the slightest hint of it may have send me into a downward spiral.. (purification or no purification) may not not touch me today (mentally or physically).. it's like the brain gets re-wired and that trigger loses its strength/power.. and you are left in amazement of the process.

Thats exactly where I am at this moment

 

quote:You also find yourself able to communicate more succinctly without trying to do so.. like words that should be spoken at that time just flow. No matter how much confusion is going on around you, you stay centered and are present and your ego does not get carried away by the situation (reminds me of "the eye of the storm").. you don't react.. and soon everything around you picks up on the calm and kinda sorta settles down... and yet when you are there you are not thinking.. "Hey, wow.. look at me.. how calm I am!!!".. you only realize it later.. Then you are awestruck.. and yet don't find it necessary to tell anyone or make a big deal about it.. guess one of the paradoxes of yoga.

Yep thats exactly it

[VIL]

I wanted to ask if you've experienced, Shanti, Richard, yogani, or anyone else for that matter, if you continue to reexperience those triggers over and over again, until your mind relents and you just let go of it?  Kind of like trying to kick chocolate, by abstaining, but the reverse is true, like eating so much of the stuff that you get just sick of it.  In other words, instead of trying to separate yourself from the actual thought or behavioral trigger, you reexperience those things until the mind is tired of exhausted?  It's a sort of disensitization that is mentioned within the Writings of Tao Te Ching.  (can't seem to find the verse). Maybe yogani discusses this in his book or could add further wisdom to this topic?  Anyway, it's not a cake walk, for me, right now, yogani, and is more like walking a tight rope:  



VIL

[yogibear]

Thank you, Yogani.

We are thinking the same, I think, but I am using a play on words to express the paradox. Silent noise vs. noisy silence. Would it be accurate to say that the silence is in the background or perhaps surrounds the noise or contains the noise? Or it just co-exists with the noise.

The latter seems to be what you are saying.

 

quote:However, it is misleading to present Silent Self as a condition of "no thinking." Then people get the idea that enlightenment is about killing thinking (and desires). This is not true.

I understand.

 

quote:Effective yoga practices cultivate the witness without getting into a wrestling match with the mind, emotions or body.

Maybe the Silent Self uses akido?

What is the nature of the silent self? Is it a static entity or is it dynamic?

If it is a witness it implies to me that it has no activity. Or is it an active silent witness?

It doesn't think and it doesn't speak and it doesn't act or does it?

Is the witness cultivated or is it there and revealed once self enquiry has released it from identification with all mental and physical phenomena? Or is the cultivation the dis-identification process?

Who is cultivating it?  

 

quote:It is about going beyond all that and coming back in as Silent Self, even as all the external stuff is continuing.

Yogani, what does this mean? Who or what is going beyond and coming back? Is what goes beyond what comes back?

Are they  different entities or the same entity, only.....different?

Does it mean having achieved a total dis-identification of myself from all of my false identifications?

Is the silent self an addition? Or a revelation? Or what is left over as the end result of self enquiry?

In other words, "oh, this is what I have always been, I just didn't realize it because I confused myself with all the noise. But now I see that I am different from this noise. I have a different relationship to the 'noise.' I no longer mistake it for myself."

Thanks again, yb.

[yogani]

Hi YB:

There is only One. Yet, perceptions change within the One as our vehicle of awareness (the nervous system) purifies and opens. During this process, the witness is first noticed as static, and later on as dynamic, within and synonymous with all that is happening -- stillness in action. Paradox ... and more...

The Silent Self is both the noise and is untouched by the noise. It is perception without identification...

The going out and coming back is the journey from pre-witnessing to witnessing, to discrimination, to dispassion, to outpouring divine love, to unity/Oneness. It is a journey from here to here. No place to go.

The word "realization" conveys what it is. Effective meditation is the primary means for cultivating realization. Samyama and self-inquiry move and reveal living stillness.

Silent Self is not primarily a mental habit. It is a whole body neurobiological awakening. This is why self-inquiry cannot do it alone, except in rare cases.

The energy techniques (pranayama, mudras, bandhas, tantra, etc.) give wings to stillness, facilitating realization of the dynamic nature of Silent Self. This is the natural role of kundalini -- the ecstatic radiation of Silent Self from within us.

The new Self-Inquiry book attempts to present all of this in a practical, usable way. I'm not sure if it succeeds. Let me know.    

The guru is in you.

[selfonlypath]

quote:Originally posted by yogani
A rose is still a rose when called by any other name.  

So I don't agree that there are Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, etc. awakenings. All are the same process of human spiritual transformation, stimulated by one systematic approach or another, or an evolving integration of approaches (something new) which is where all of this is going in the information age. Modern Applied Spiritual Science.

Dear Yogani,

I hope you realize that i'm totally in the same line.

There is the map to explore the territory. Map is the system or the method and territory is the human spiritual experience. A good system or method can work for someone and not work for another person but this does not mean the system is bad.

In other words, the map is not the territory so at some point, one might need to not attach anymore to the system who provided the initial awakening because attaching is an ego trap but also gives lots of unnecessary arguments (my system is better than yours).

I've studied different systems to realize that they all take you to the same place but the method might be different as well as the speed and associated safety.

The spirit of my posts here is really trans-system integration where I'm looking for certain subsets, techniques so I can recover missing information from no name system I practice.

From what you've shared plus the fact i'm totally new to AYP, i suspect the book (self-inquiry) you are about to publish is really connected to Dzogchen. If it is the case, this would mean it is above sutras, tantras and AYP itself.

I would be also very interested to know your views or experiences with authentic shamanism.

In Shakti, Albert

[Sparkle]

Great thread, the posts re the silent witness and self inquiry are of particular interest to me.

quote:Shanti said: And yes.. there are times I catch myself not thinking (of course, the min I think "Hey! I am not thinking".. I am thinking ..).. like in meditation

I wondered about this, whether it was possible somehow to observe the thinking process as something separate from thinking?.

Like the thinking objects that Yogani refers to are not actually observed as objects from a witness perspective, if that witness was in no-thinking mode.

When, for instance, we realise - oh there I go again with another thinking story - what happens here. Does another part of our thinking brain identify the thinking story or do we temporarily come out of thinking mode into silence in order to be able to identify it?

This may seem pedantic, but it's good to have some sort of reference as to where one is in this.
Many years ago I did enter a state where I seemed to be observing myself from a point above me and able to converse with people from this witness place, I just needed to have the intention to say something and the words flowed out, the timing was perfect and I could observe a group of three or four people from this vantage point and see and hear everything going on from what seemed like a very intelligent place. Is this more like the kind of thing people are talking about? or was that some sort of fluke scenary going on?

Thanks[]