Reaching out

[CarsonZi]

Hi Beckon and welcome to the AYP forums!

You've gotten plenty of great advice from other's here, I just wanted to mention to you that zopiclone, the "little blue pill" you are taking to help you sleep, can *really* screw with the energies and likely compound things in the long run.  If you can figure out a way to go to sleep without it, I highly recommend that.  I would suggest a vigorous workout directly after dinner.  

Just wanted to mention that and say a quick welcome to a fellow Canadian.

Best of luck to you!

Love!
Carson

[brother neil]

I know I may sound like a broken record, yet meditating with my feet on the ground in the evening helps me to feel tired, but not in a bad way, earlier and gives my body a cool relaxing energy.

interesting video, funny.  from what I have seen of mooji, he is not against practices, he does have some guided meditations on his site and satsang is a so called practice as well. in this video, in a sense he is saying something similar to what yogani says, focus on the destination not the scenery.  Mooji talks in one of his talks about having certain experiences arise during a cleaning out process for himself, a burning away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5vF8ABbj5M&feature=related

[beckon]

Carson: thank you so much for that information and the warm welcome. Very helpful indeed.

Brother Neil: great video, it certainly bolstered my spirit. Thank you for sharing.

[brother neil]

your welcome

[Bodhi Tree]

I was raised in a family of con men, drug dealers, ponzi scheme swindlers, and intellectual elites...all of them highly skilled in the art of persuasion and verbal gymnastics. Consequently, my ability to discern between truth and falsehood has been honed since an early age. Inner silence also gives rise to this ability for discernment.

Mooji is much like Adyashanti. They speak very cleverly, constantly weaving in and out of non-duality linguistics. They will always come back to one thing: that there really is no path, nothing but here and now. "You're already enlightened." They scoff at the usage of techniques like refining a mantra in the mind, and instead promote "do nothing" or guided meditations (using their own reassuring voices ). In my opinion, if you observe their body language and tone of voice, you can hear the ever-so-slight pretension: the air of someone who believes they have arrived--it is very subtle indeed, but unmistakably present (again, just my subjective perspective). Yet they would be the first to say there is nowhere to go, so their bases are covered.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy some of their talks, and this is not guru bashing. I'm just sharing some heartfelt words of warning: caveat emptor (let the buyer beware). Yogani covers all of this in the field of non-relational self-inquiry, where we can build castles in the air based on intellectual efforts to "snap out of it" and "awaken" instantaneously.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." John 8:32

[gatito]

quote:Originally posted by Bodhi Tree

I was raised in a family of con men, drug dealers, ponzi scheme swindlers, and intellectual elites...all of them highly skilled in the art of persuasion and verbal gymnastics. Consequently, my ability to discern between truth and falsehood has been honed since an early age. Inner silence also gives rise to this ability for discernment.

Mooji is much like Adyashanti. They speak very cleverly, constantly weaving in and out of non-duality linguistics. They will always come back to one thing: that there really is no path, nothing but here and now. "You're already enlightened." They scoff at the usage of techniques like refining a mantra in the mind, and instead promote "do nothing" or guided meditations (using their own reassuring voices ). In my opinion, if you observe their body language and tone of voice, you can hear the ever-so-slight pretension: the air of someone who believes they have arrived--it is very subtle indeed, but unmistakably present (again, just my subjective perspective). Yet they would be the first to say there is nowhere to go, so their bases are covered.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy some of their talks, and this is not guru bashing. I'm just sharing some heartfelt words of warning: caveat emptor (let the buyer beware). Yogani covers all of this in the field of non-relational self-inquiry, where we can build castles in the air based on intellectual efforts to "snap out of it" and "awaken" instantaneously.

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." John 8:32

You may find this thread interesting, as I have the impression that yogani doesn't actually disagree with Adya's approach and certainly wouldn't characterise him as someone who is building castles in the air (I hope not anyway ).

http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=1502

[karl]

It's all choice, there are multiple paths and what suits one does not appeal to another.

Sometimes the words used hint at there being only "one way".  They often lack the humility which many find to be more appealing, because there is a clear path of unlimited choice.

Read anything by Sri Ramana Marahashi and the teaching is reflective, it is matter of fact and very inclusive of multiple paths, without any preaching. That is not to say that Adys descriptions are anything but genuine, but the style doesn't appeal to those who have a need for a less guided approach.

You can see this in action during holiday trips. Some like a guided tour, others like to pick up a guide book and wander at their leisure. Both see the sights, just in different ways. The one who prefers the guided approach is not as happy trying to find his way, that isn't fun, it's just wasteful. For the unguided adventurer, freedom and  adventure is the key.

[Bodhi Tree]

I'm primarily just venting, which I don't like to do, but it happens. Sorry. I'm only voicing a personal opinion, not a stance against their teaching. If their teachings are working for their students, that is good. Hurray, really. As I said, I like some of their talks too.

I was actually thinking after I posted that: Ah, why did I post that? If Adyashanti or Mooji are misleading aspirants with their words, what good does it do to try and de-fraud them in this forum? Not much. I waste my energy sometimes on getting involved in fights that don't lead to any victories.

Anyway, re: the thread Gatito referenced above, here is a Yogani quote from that string:

"Non-dualists have plenty of finesse of their own. They talk about the experience of non-dualism a lot, going to great lengths to convince incarnated consciousness of its true nature. Non-dual teachers are valued not only for their perceived condition, but also for their ability to convey to others how to unfold it. That is finesse, yes?"

Adyashanti and Mooji in a nutshell.

To each his own! Thanks for your replies, gentlemen!

[beckon]

I tried skipping the zoplicone last night and ended up taking melatonin instead at around 2 am. The effect was something like rubber-banding between vivid dream state and consciousness. Most unpleasant. Quite distressing, actually.

[brother neil]

quote:Originally posted by Bodhi Tree



Mooji is much like Adyashanti. They speak very cleverly, constantly weaving in and out of non-duality linguistics. They will always come back to one thing: that there really is no path, nothing but here and now. "You're already enlightened." They scoff at the usage of techniques like refining a mantra in the mind, and instead promote "do nothing" or guided meditations (using their own reassuring voices ). John 8:32

I dont believe this is accurate of mooji.  One pitfal could be that if you watch one or two videos of mooji, or maybe even ten you may not get the whole picture of what he does.  Now, with no need for arrogance I say that I have watched at least a hundred hours and listened a hundred more, or more to recordings of his.  He has two guided meditations that you can download on his site.   He also has an I AM practice  that he describes in a video, he does not like to call it meditation or a practice, however he gives directions.  

He also talks about how if sometimes someone is not ready for direct realization, in this moment, that they may need a practice to calm the mind.  He also speaks fondly of one sage/guru in particular who chants hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare

personally I myself have been arrogant and not humble on others practices, even on this site, some as recent as a few days ago, yet in this moment and future ones my intention is to respond humbly and with respect to others paths and if in certain sh*tuations i feel i can possibly assist, may I offer my input humbly so as to not make myself and or another stumble.

[gatito]

quote:Originally posted by beckon

I tried skipping the zoplicone last night and ended up taking melatonin instead at around 2 am. The effect was something like rubber-banding between vivid dream state and consciousness. Most unpleasant. Quite distressing, actually.

Hi beckon

Have you considered that of you've been taking zimovane regularly for a while, you could be addicted? If so, you might need to get some help to get off it.

http://www.non-benzodiazepines.org.uk/zopiclone.html

This might help - but you should really discuss it with a sympathetic and knowledgable doctor in order to be properly supported.

Best Wishes.

[gatito]

quote:Originally posted by Bodhi Tree


To each his own! Thanks for your replies, gentlemen!

You're welcome. []I hope the thread was useful.

The problem with advaita is that there are advaitans and neo-advaitans and it's difficult to distinguish between the two sometimes.

Another problem is that even when you find a real teacher, you need to realise that everything that's said is not really true but only a provisional truth tailored to the individual student's current understanding - the thorn to remove the thorn.

[maheswari]

quote:To each his own! Thanks for your replies, gentlemen!

i really like your expression style Bodhi Tree

[Bodhi Tree]

@gatito: That thread = incredibly useful.
@maheswari: Your style = equally enjoyable.

[CarsonZi]

quote:Originally posted by beckon

I tried skipping the zoplicone last night and ended up taking melatonin instead at around 2 am. The effect was something like rubber-banding between vivid dream state and consciousness. Most unpleasant. Quite distressing, actually.

Hi Beckon

Sorry to hear you had a distressing and difficult sleep last night.  

How long have you been taking zopiclone for and (if you don't mind my asking) what other meds are you currently regularly taking?

I would not recommend (not that anyone is looking for my recommendations ) switching over to valium as suggested in the link posted by Gatito simply because benzo's are just as difficult, if not more so, to downdose from.  What I would suggest would be to start downdosing from zopiclone by breaking the pill in half and using only ~3.75mgs instead of 7.5mgs (I assume you are only using 1 pill a night).  Personally I never had withdrawals from zopiclone, but that could be because I was using heroin and a plethora of other CNS depressants in conjunction with zopiclone and that likely eased any withdrawals that may have been happening.

Just wondering, but did you engage in some vigorous exercise like I suggested after dinner last night or did you just not take the zopiclone and hope for the best?  I highly (can't recommend this enough) suggest that you tire yourself out as much as possible before going to bed if you are not going to take the zopiclone.  You may even find it helpful to have a full ejaculatory orgasm before falling asleep as that could lower the internal energies to a point where less sedation is necessary for sleep.

One last thing.... taking melatonin at 2am is not a great idea (although I totally understand why you did that).  If you are going to use melatonin it's a good idea to take it at around 9pm.  And keep in mind that melatonin only helps if there is a natural lack of melatonin being secreted.  If the pineal gland is secreting a normal amount of melatonin and your sleep disturbance is not related to a lack of melatonin, taking melatonin suppliments will likely not help much.  Just something to be aware of.

If you want to try a more natural sleep aid (these will also ease withdrawal symptoms from zopiclone) you could always try things like valerian capsules, lemon balm, chamomile, passion flower, and hops capsules.

Again, sorry you are struggling like this, hope everything sorts itself out soon.

Love!
Carson