Not much happening :) & other issues

[nfgodinho]

Hello my friends,

I am in a bit of a crisis I guess. I will try to summarize my overall situation with AYP. I have been practicing (with my ups and downs) since August. After two months of practice I was lucky enough to have an amazing experience (see here http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=496). Besides that, in the first three months or so, even though nothing extraordinary would happen, I could always feel some kind of "awareness" or at least I would feel like if my mind had entered a different "mode". Anyway, this all stopped and now I just fell calm. Calm like someone who sits calmly for half an hour.

I have read the "nothing much happening" lesson and understand that one should not be looking forward to experience bliss. But I am still a little afraid that I may be doing something wrong. Here are some clues to what I mean:

1 - For the first 3 months or so I practiced sitting in a chair with back support. Since my right knee was hurt I couldn’t succeed at comfortably cross my legs. Now that it’s healed I started practicing sitting cross-legged (right over left in half-padmasana) in my bed with my back against the wall (using a pillow to make it softer). I sometimes tried to do it without back support and after 15 minutes of meditation I get pain in my back which starts asking for attention degrading my meditation. Question: How should I try to evolve? Should I do half of the time without back support and then slightly relax my back in the pillow regaining support from the wall? Or should I just forget back support and try to ignore the pain (it’s not unbearable anyway)?

2 - Spinal breathing. I still didn't get it. Some days (like this morning) I just can't get to it. It's like my body rejects the effort, it refuses to breath deeply. It’s weird to explain. Sometimes I think it is me being lazy. Other times it really feels uncomfortable even for some seconds. It’s not uncomfortable in a painful way, but more like a burden,
 Question: I added spinal breathing about 3 months ago but am still doing only 5 minutes of it because I figured that I should only increase the time to 15 minutes once I felt I was doing it right. Nevertheless I already added mulabandha and sambhavi because they both felt really natural to me having practiced Asthanga Yoga and Kundalini Meditation in the past. Is this silly? Maybe I should be doing 15 minutes already? Maybe I should be doing 15 minutes before I moved on to mulabandha and sambhavi?

3 - Meditation. Someday I feel very comfortable and relax; others I feel anxious for the 20 minutes to finish. I guess this is normal. What frustrates me is that I got used to feel kind of "lightweight" during and after meditation and parts of my body would always get numb (in a nice way) but not anymore. Now “nothing much happens” AT ALL. This seems contradictory but I fell like if I had never felt anything it would be easier to have faith. Question: I must be patient, right?

4 – I read in the lessons and in the forum that spinal breathing should be having some positive impact on meditation. That is one more reason why I think I am doing something wrong. I read in the forum somewhere that, for example, if my face wrinkles during meditation the pranayama would help overcome that effect, that it would help meditation in many ways. Well, it doesn’t for me. I get out of pranayama exactly as I entered it. Same question: I must be patient, right?

I don’t doubt AYP at all. I am just afraid that I am wasting my time doing it wrong.

Thanks in advance,
Nuno

[david_obsidian]

Hello Nuno,

Question 1: How should I try to evolve? Should I do half of the time without back support and then slightly relax my back in the pillow regaining support from the wall? Or should I just forget back support and try to ignore the pain (it’s not unbearable anyway)?

There's no right answer here.  The underlined bit sounds good to me though.  That is probably what I would do.

All postures require muscular activity to sustain them.  The good ones require less muscular activity,  the bad ones often more,  but not being used to the particular muscular activity profile of the better postures,  they can appear to tire our muscles more,  because they are working on different muscles which are not used to it.

The (underlined) approach will develop your postural muscles over time,  and keep out of the way during meditation.  In time,  you will find yourself taking the back support later and later in the meditation,  until you are not doing it at all.

The other approach,  (just ploughing ahead) which is what any zen teacher would probably tell you,  has its merits too.

Another thing to think about is watch your posture during the day.  Keep your back straight always when you sit down.  This will help too to speed up your development of good posture and eliminate the discomfort during meditation.

2 - Spinal breathing. I still didn't get it. Some days (like this morning) I just can't get to it. It's like my body rejects the effort, it refuses to breath deeply. It’s weird to explain. Sometimes I think it is me being lazy. Other times it really feels uncomfortable even for some seconds. It’s not uncomfortable in a painful way, but more like a burden,
 ... And also Question 4.


I think people differ a lot in their need for spinal breathing.  It's a tool to help getting the energy straight when it starts coming up.
 If there are no energy integration issues then it can be needed less.  My suggestion (this is what I do myself) -- do a smaller amount of it unless you see the need for more (that is,  stick to the five minutes).

3 - Meditation. Someday I feel very comfortable and relax; others I feel anxious for the 20 minutes to finish. I guess this is normal. What frustrates me is that I got used to feel kind of "lightweight" during and after meditation and parts of my body would always get numb (in a nice way) but not anymore. Now “nothing much happens” AT ALL. This seems contradictory but I fell like if I had never felt anything it would be easier to have faith. Question: I must be patient, right?

Nuno,  waiting patiently for exactly what?    Here's another more important question:  how does you life compare with meditation to without it?  If it is better,  you already have a pay-off.

So rather than waiting patiently for some pay-off,  better to enjoy what you have.  Enjoy the now.  Enjoy the day.  Every day.  Forget about meditation when you get up from your seat.

Almost anything you notice is a side-effect of meditation, not the real payoff.   When you notice things like feeling lighter,  what is happening is that your body is not used to feeling lighter (and has not integrated it) and you notice it.  When your body integrates that, you won't notice it at all.

When the real payoff is kicking in,  you aren't noticing,  or looking for payoff at all.  You are enjoying the now,  the day,  the world,  the people you meet,  your time alone,  your sleep,  your waking,  your source -- and all those silly,  individual passions that keep us going.

There's every chance that your meditation is as good now as when you noticed the side-effects -- or even better.  Your body has integrated those effects and you don't notice them.

Watch out for becoming a fussy meditator -- looking for your payoff every day on your seat.  I used to be like that myself -- trying to grab again in my next meditation the same experience that made me feel something unusual or good was happening in the last.  It's a fool's game,  not just because it spoils the meditation,  but because,  in the light of the fact that the noticeable events are just happening because integration is needed,  the very ongoing and positive process of integration is thwarting the arrival of these experiences.  

More power to you on your path,

Blessings,

-David

[Jim and His Karma]

[I didn't see David's post when I started writing this! I hope between both replies you can relax into the practice a little]

Hi, Nuno

Let me try to offer easy help, because my feeling is you are making things too complicated!

I'll go point by point.


1. nowhere does AYP tell you to do half padmasana (of course, you're welcome to do or ignore whatever parts you want). Also, Yogani specifically says that using the wall is fine. So why are you making problems for yourself? Do practice in simple cross legs on a nice soft bed with your back against the wall. If it hurts....don't do it! And don't move or change anything during practice. Sit however is most comfortable for you to get through the time. This isn't torture!

2. You are describing anxiety. It's fine, don't be angry with yourself about it. If you get anxious about being anxious, it's just a mess. So be easy on yourself! The practice will fix this if you will let it.

Here's my advice: absolutely don't add ANYTHING...no mulha banda, no sambhavi...until this smooths out (that's the self-pacing AYP talks about so much....if it's not smooth and easy, you are not ready to add new things!). Just do five minutes of spinal breathing, no more. If you can do five minutes of simple spinal breathing with your body in a comfortable position without feeling bad, great! If that still gives you anxiety, be easy with yourself! Try 3 minutes. Even 1 minute. If you can't bear any spinal breathing, it's not defeat. Just meditate....and remember that meditation is ALL YOU NEED (Yogani says it, many other people say it, I say it, it's very true). In a few months, you may be a different person, completely happy in adding spinal breathing.

To help with the anxiety, practice some light asanas for 5 minutes before practice. Don't do any heavy exhausting astanga sequences, don't do energy cultivating kundalini maneuvers. Just nice, gentle, light-weight, physical fitness asanas, ones that calm you down (start a new discussion on this if you want advice). You may want to also use asana to work on your knee and back problem (I practice Iyengar yoga, which is very therapeutic). Also, walks are good for centering and grounding and calming.

3. we don't meditate to get a certain feeling afterwards. Totally drop your expectations. Let mantra and meditation do its work, don't try to control it, don't judge the meditation or yourself. Just let go totally, and let the mantra do its work on you. We're looking for results over years, not over minutes.

4. In this and in all things you're getting much much too complicated. You need to make this process easier. AYP is very very very easy. Don't "be patient"....that's still too much control. Instead, take yourself out of the practice entirely. Use your analytical mind the OTHER 23 hours per day, and accept the fact that during practice, your mind will get no rewards, and your mind will not be called upon to find the way, judge the result, or figure out the solution.

If you feel this even a tiny little bit, your deepest center will find it a tremendous relief. You sound like you're a little bit sick of your mind. That's very good. Time to let it go and see the incredible ocean of calm that lives just barely underneath all the electricity. Let go.

Go easy on AYP, go easy on yourself. Do asana for anxieties (I have a strong feeling that stopping asana practice was a mistake for you....practicing asana and then stopping can make you more anxious than never having practiced at all). Go easy on yourself. Go easy on yourself.

And welcome to the forum. I love Portugal. Portugal needs to go easier on itself, too. I understand. It's ok. Just let this practice be like brushing your teeth and don't hope for anything big. Or small. Or anything. Just do it without hope.

[riptiz]

Dear Nuno,
I think David and Jim covered most of it but I'll add my thoughts if you wish. There is no necessity to meditate in a posture, you can sit simply comfortable with your back straight.Obviously in a posture brings another tool into the picture but if you are struggling with being comfortable then you may find it better to sit comfortable and not think you need to be in any specific asana.
Alternate nostril pranayama can be benficial before meditation and can often lead to more relaxed start. We are not looking for specific meditations as the other gents have already said but the pranayama does calm things to allow you to meditate more 'naturally without looking for specifics.
As Jim rightly said we are looking at years for effect and not minutes.When you get the cleansing effects , simply tell yourself that when you get to the 'other' side that your levels will have risen further and everything is happening for a reason, which it is.Gentle relaxed practice and not forced concentrated action is required and then everything that happens is correct for you at that time.
L&L
Dave

'the mind can see further than the eyes'

[Jim and His Karma]

"simply tell yourself that when you get to the 'other' side"


With all respect, riptiz, I don't think that's helpful. We're not going anywhere. There is no "other side". We're just clearing vast amounts of dirt off our windshields so we're able to glimpse what we already are and have always been.

If anything, we're learning to STOP going to other places and just relax into the eternal present here and now.

The illusions of going somewhere and advancing somehow are both creations of the mind. Only the mind takes trips. The soul knows no time or place.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
[br






4. In this and in all things you're getting much much too complicated. You need to make this process easier. AYP is very very very easy. Don't "be patient"....that's still too much control. Instead, take yourself out of the practice entirely. Use your analytical mind the OTHER 23 hours per day, and accept the fact that during practice, your mind will get no rewards, and your mind will not be called upon to find the way, judge the result, or figure out the solution.

If you feel this even a tiny little bit, your deepest center will find it a tremendous relief. You sound like you're a little bit sick of your mind. That's very good. Time to let it go and see the incredible ocean of calm that lives just barely underneath all the electricity. Let go.

That's very good advice Jim and I am sure everyone on this forum would gain from heeding it.

Terrific post

RICHARD

[Jim and His Karma]

"That's very good advice Jim and I am sure everyone on this forum would gain from heeding it."


Oh, great, I'm glad. I'm trying to leave breadcrumb trails...little things I've figured out. Others are doing likewise. I'm trying to give out as much as I take! I love the Internet!

BTW, the point I was making (and you were quoting) is something I'm currently thinking about. Zen teachers try to stop your mind with inexplicable puzzles (koans). The point is you get so damned sick of using your mind to solve the problem that eventually you just get sick of your thought processes and let them go. I'd always considered this result to be "skillful means". It's not. It's everything.

I am as sick of myself as any human being on the planet (not self-loathing...I just annoy myself). This fact is by far my biggest ally in spiritual work. I can't tell you how happy I am to more and more deeply realize that I am not my neurotic, clinging, grasping, prideful, worrisome, regrettful, niggling, fun-ruining, buzz-killing, glib, overanalytical accomplishment-oriented mind.

Bhakti, shmakti. Samadhi, baloney. I'm unfathomably relieved to be able to find that that annoying static isn't me, it's just a radio playing. It's such a relief, in fact, that I don't care a bit if I ever get enlightened. The term has no meaning for me. Trying to get enlightened is just more static, more of the problem. Ugh.

[Frank-in-SanDiego]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

quote:Originally posted by Jim and His Karma

I am as sick of myself as any human being on the planet (not self-loathing...I just annoy myself). This fact is by far my biggest ally in spiritual work. I can't tell you how happy I am to more and more deeply realize that I am not my neurotic, clinging, grasping, prideful, worrisome, regrettful, niggling, fun-ruining, buzz-killing, glib, overanalytical accomplishment-oriented mind. It's literally the thrill of a lifetime.

Hello Jim,
Glad to hear of your progress here... this is the dispassion that has  been written about over and over again. This is the small self you have just described. Like that.

Peace,

Frank In San Diego

[riptiz]

Dear Jim,
 "simply tell yourself that when you get to the 'other' side"


I think you misunderstood my statement above. When I spoke of getting to the other side I did not mean a place, I simply meant the cleansing moments we sometimes get.If you were in a walking in the sunshine and  suddenly found yourself in a rainstorm but in the distance could see the sunshine further up the road.Maybe this rain is simply washing a bit more off the windscreen as you put it, but doesn't the thought of the sunshine in the distance make the rainstorm a little bit more easier to handle?
L&L
Dave

'the mind can see further than the eyes'

[nfgodinho]

Hello,

Thank all for all your help. Your posts were most helpful. I guess, even when I kind of know you shouldn't carve on sensations, I still need someone to tell me that. I am following your suggestions. I dropped mulabandha and sambhavi in spinal breathing, stick to 5 minutes and went back to the lounge chair.

But still, there are some issues I would like to ask you.

Jim, when you say I shouldn't expect anything, that meditation will do its work over time. That makes sense to me. But, on the other side, Yogani suggests that I should be adding more "instruments" to my practice in a self-paced way. And both in the lessons and in the forum I keep reading about observing the effects of each thing you add to the practice. As I understand from reading the posts one is expected to be able to evaluate on the effectiveness of each thing added to the practice. If I can't evaluate my spinal breathing how can I decide to move forward and add something else on top of what I'm already doing? Is "being comfortable" the only criteria? If it is, it still makes sense to me but I would like to know your opinion because from reading the lessons and the forum I would say there's more to it for most practitioners.

For example, I read posts discussing subtle differences in specific exercises and arguing about advantages and disadvantages based on self-observation. Also, I believe Yogani speaks often about bliss, and I read somewhere that the success of meditation (through out your life of course) can be measured by the amount of bliss you feel.

I believe these are the reasons why I am "worried" about "feeling" the meditation. Because I wanna get it right. Not necessarily because I am becoming a fussy meditator. I do hope not :|. If this system tries to have a scientific approach to spiritual evolution, this implies an "experiment <-> observe" relationship, right?

Love,
Nuno

[Anthem]

Hi Nuno,

I am sure Jim will give a detailed reply, I would just add to whatever he says that the self-evaluation takes place after the practices. In other words, how do you feel during the day after making some changes or additions to your routine. Are you showing any signs of over-doing it? If so, then self-pacing measures are required. During meditation one simply comes back to the mantra repeatedly until practice is complete for that session.

Good luck,

Anthem

[Jim and His Karma]

quote:Originally posted by nfgodinho

Hello,
Jim, when you say I shouldn't expect anything, that meditation will do its work over time. That makes sense to me. But, on the other side, Yogani suggests that I should be adding more "instruments" to my practice in a self-paced way. And both in the lessons and in the forum I keep reading about observing the effects of each thing you add to the practice. As I understand from reading the posts one is expected to be able to evaluate on the effectiveness of each thing added to the practice. If I can't evaluate my spinal breathing how can I decide to move forward and add something else on top of what I'm already doing? Is "being comfortable" the only criteria? If it is, it still makes sense to me but I would like to know your opinion because from reading the lessons and the forum I would say there's more to it for most practitioners.

Great question.

I can explain best by saying this:  I myself am doing almost nothing. I have a ton of bhakti in my system anyway (who knows why? past lives, yadda yadda, whatever), so I just do meditation, spinal breathing, mulha bandha, sambahvi, and samyama. Really, most days I just meditate. And I'm deliriously happy with my practice. So the answer is......you really don't need to climb the ladder, so to speak. And Yogani confirms this, he is very careful to say that meditation is all you need, and the other stuff are little pushes and helps....not necessary, but nice tools.

But your question is how to know when to move forward, and, again, it's a great one. Yogani is very careful to explain the process by which you hold back, but a bit fuzzy on the process by which you move forward. There's good reason for this. And here it is: when it's time to add something, you'll know it. If you feel an overwhelming burning deep non-ego desire to add some fuel, then slowly, carefully, gingerly, observantly add the next step. And stay right there until, again, you have overwhelming burning deep non-ego desire to add more fuel. And if you NEVER EVER DO....that's ok. Meditation is all you need.

Here's the weird thing. Doing AYP meditation, reading the AYP lessons, and doing almost nothing else is vastly different than just "freelance" meditating. Having the framework of AYP, and Yogani's brilliantly constructed system of viewing this pursuit, is so valuable. So even if you're doing almost nothing, you're doing a lot. I speak from experience on this.

quote:Also, I believe Yogani speaks often about bliss, and I read somewhere that the success of meditation (through out your life of course) can be measured by the amount of bliss you feel.

Yogani's a good salesman. He really wants lots of people doing AYP. Not (I believe and hope) because he's a megalomaniac, but because it'll make things better. So he goes on about the bliss and stuff in attempt to entice people into sitting on the floor going "I Am" a lot 20 mins a day. Some people need a tangible goal. I don't believe you do. So forget about it, and consider AYP to be like brushing your teeth. Will the resulting white shiny teeth make you a sexual superstar? Will your clean minty breath revolutionize your social life? Not necessary...tooth brushing is just good to do for many smaller reasons.

Oh, and I"m not saying the bliss promises are empty hype. It's all true and more. No b.s.. But my point is you're best off NOT practicing with the goal of grabbing that gold ring. Just practice to practice. Do goals the other 23 hours per day. Let your practice work on you, don't use this as a tool to get somewhere or do something or become something. Just sit and say "I am" and let yourself go. So blessedly simple!

quote:
I believe these are the reasons why I am "worried" about "feeling" the meditation. Because I wanna get it right. Not necessarily because I am becoming a fussy meditator. I do hope not :|. If this system tries to have a scientific approach to spiritual evolution, this implies an "experiment <-> observe" relationship, right?

yup, but first you have to get started. You have to log hours. Just do basics and get past your expectations. START SIMPLE and get into the groove. Your worrying and fussing and complication and desire to experiment and observe are going to work against you. You're coming into this ultra simple practice with way too much complexity. My suggestion is to commit to two months of twice daily practice with the offhandedness of brushing your teeth. See what happens. Or take up Tibetan Buddhism or other complex system that will offer you lots to inject your mind into. If you're attracted to AYP, the simplest of practices, respect and honor the simplicity. You yourself, underneath all the static, are simpler than you could ever imagine.

[avid_seeker]

Hi guys!

I have a problem, which i am hoping you can find a solution for. I came across the AYP Site about a year or so ago, quite by accident (if you can call it an accident!), after an experience which i had, out of the blue, one day while meditating. I won't go into the details of that exerience, because it is posted in the main lessons (I think it is 261), under "kundalini surge". What is interesting is that i wasn't doing anything exotic when that spiritual tsunami hit me, just breathing deeply, slowly and steadily, while focussing on the process.

Anyway, i have been practicing both spinal breathing and "i am" meditation since then, though regularity of practice is what is missing. I also use moolabandha and sambhavi. The order of my practice is.....first energy raising in standing position, filling the 'dan tien'(and here i can actually feel energy rushing in), 10 mins of focusing on slow, deep breathing, colour visualisation to get into a light trance, spinal breathing, meditation and lastly grounding visualisation. But, i still don't feel anything happening in my spine per se, though i sometimes feel my third eye throbbing and many a time my eyes feel hot and heavy and i also become a bit irritable and edgy. I haven't got into the habit of timing my efforts, thinking that it will all fall into place automaticaly. The point is that i am not able to go deep into the meditative zone. I wold love to feel that 'inner silence' that i have heard so much about, but all that seems to happen is that i seem to just wait for the 20 mins to be up so that i can wind up! Talk about downers! Invariably, when i check the clock, what seems like an hour is just 20 or 25 mins. Why on  earth can't i go deep inside? Is it something i am doing wrong? Or is it that my expectations are retarding my progress?  Incidentaly i also exercise a lot.....Walking, weights and yoga for about two hours. Any help you can ofer would be greatly appreciated, because i fear at this rate i might one day just quit in frustration!

Regards,
Venu

[weaver]

quote:Originally posted by avid_seeker

regularity of practice is what is missing...

I haven't got into the habit of timing my efforts...

Hi Venu,

Regularity and timing are very important in AYP to get steady results from our practice. First, regularity, to do (at least some amount of) practice twice every day no matter what. If we find that our inner clock is not very accurate, it's good to use a clock or other device to time our practice. Regularity comes in here also, we try to keep the practice sessions fairly even in length, if we decide to meditate 15 min. every time we keep it around that length and only vary it gradually over time, instead of meditating 10 min. one session and 25 the next etc. The nervous system is best fed with a steady, persistent diet of practices. If you feel that 20 min. of meditation causes restlessness, you could make it shorter, like 10 or 15 min. for a while, and see if that feels better, and then only increase the time very gradually, and not go over 20 min. finally. Feeling irritable and edgy can be symptoms of too long meditations.

It's also important to know that the meditation works it's intended effects in our nervous system even if we don't have the experience of 'inner silence', and that expectations during meditation is a hindrance rather than a help. I find that if I make a general resolve before the meditation that "I will not care how the meditation will go or feel, I will just do it", then it will actually turn out with more silence.

[Anthem]

Hi Venu,

I agree with Weaver, the irritability you mention is likely from over-doing, you might want to try reducing your meditation time down to 15 minutes.

All the additional visualizations and energy raising etc. are also making it difficult to know where you should cut back. The throbbing you are getting at the 3rd eye and also your inability to go deep during meditation suggests to me like you are building up too much energy/ prana prior to meditation. When lot's of energy is going on, I have noticed it keeps you at the surface, we need to have a balance between inner-silence and prana.

You might want to try letting go of the visualization exercises and sticking more closely to the AYP script. In regards to you not feeling anything in the spinal nerve, for me energy flows rose up initially through the chakras as well. Eventually things settled down (after many months) and then a gradual build-up of prana became more present in the spinal nerve in a very slowly evolving and subtle way.

good luck,

Anthem

ps- Just throwing in something I should have mentioned earlier, expectation and/ or frustration can definitely serve as blocks for going deeper. You may also want to try allowing the mantra to manifest in a more subtle (fuzzy/ quieter or distant way) rather than on the surface of the mind.