symptoms of purification or of practice?

[Black Rebel Radio]

Sounds good to me Tallis. I'm just along for the ride!

With regard the star, I thought a reference to this lesson was
appropriate as well.

http://www.aypsite.com/plus/T25.html

I just happened to pick the AYP book of lessons and instantly came to 91 and 92 and then Yogani referenced them today and then after my sitting practices again I stumbled on this Tantra lesson.

Peace
Mac

[emc]

John,
"...is scenery just imagery, that is not substantial in the least? Like all the Third Eye stuff? Is that just so much baloney? It seems real, like a window into the universe."

I don't know which state I'm stuck in, but to me, existence is not substantial in the least. It seems real. But it's not. That is the illusion.

You are not looking into the universe through the third eye window. It is exactly the other way around.

Yogani writes:

"So, it is not about going off into the star. It is about
bringing the star in here, into the earth plane."

I'd say - you are not looking INTO the star, into a universe inside you. You are the star, which is pure consciousness - heaven - looking OUT at the marvellous world of existence, which is itself manifesting itself!

It is YOU all the way. The identity shift goes from the "I" being the physical body with a personal mind - looking for spiritual development, being surprised and delighted to find such a vast spiritual world inside when closing the eyes - to realizing "I" am that vastness which contains it all, the universe, the sun, the moon, the stars, the Earth, all beings, and further, that the present physical body with a little bubble of personal mind attached to it is the vehicle I have for my journey of sense-perception experiences in this existence.

John: "How unreal is that scenery? You can see where I am going with this. Personally, I think your concept of scenery is being carried A LITTLE TOO FAR. Will death be scenery? Are your toes scenery?"

I am not stable in my realizations and can't live them in the Now fully, but yes. What I have come to know is that it is all, what I call, very unreal. I am accused sometimes of taking things too far , also being a great fan of Nisargadatta. My toes and my body is total scenery. It is not MY body at all. It is A body, which is actually totally see through and transparent, built out of... nothing..., temporarily existing in time and space as an appearance, a projection in the mind, and as soon as time and space is transcended, the body is a funny thing to feel through and watch. And when the body is gone, I will still be here. Death is illusion. Nobody ever died on this planet, since individual identities are fake/illusion/not real. That is what detachment is about. To realize my personal identity was fake all the way. IT is experiencing itself in living life through different nervous systems.

When stillness is the eternal base it becomes the only reality, everything else which is temporal is unreal. I 'survive' or overlive all temporal changes. I watch it all come and go, watch the dance of life and death, which is only a beautiful performance of energies changing form. I am that form, and the non-form, and the Source behind it all.

Yogani:
"Then we have it all, become it all, heaven, earth, the cosmos, LA, everything. Then we become an expression of heaven on earth..."

And today's quote from Nisargadatta was very conveniently this:

quote:You may die a hundred deaths without a break in the mental turmoil. Or you may keep your body and die only in the mind. The death of the mind is the birth of wisdom.

/Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

(from http://www.mpeters.de/nisargadatta/index.cfm)

The Dhammapada says:

For consider the world -
A bubble, a mirage.
See the world as it is,
And death shall overlook you.

[x.j.]

Very nice discussion! Thankyou. Sounds like Advaitic Vedanta to me.
I have read Nisargatta and Ramana Maharshi, so had exposure to the whole concept.

I wonder if one could simply say that we are experiencing consciousness expansion, or consciousness de-contraction, but that since we are incarnate, the sense of self is the natural paradigm for us in this usual consciousness-contracted state, until we die. Often times, and daily in fact in meditative state, I lose all sense of individulized duality-based consciousness, but then I am not conscious of the mystical imagery, until on the precipice between nondual consciousness and the usual waking state. And the mystical visions and imagery that I and others bring up here, of necessity requires the consciousness of this Earth realm, wakeful consciousness of  duality, for it's perception and remembering. Speaking just for myself, I love the mystical insights and the greasy under the hood stuff, though dual.
Advaitic Vedanta's most well known proponent is of course the wonderful and renown Shankara who stated:
"Brahman is the only truth, the world is illusion, and there is ultimately, no difference between Brahman and the individual self."
John

[Christi]

Hi EMC and all

 

quote:
EMC wrote:
I don't know which state I'm stuck in, but to me, existence is not substantial in the least. It seems real. But it's not. That is the illusion.

You’re not stuck at all EMC! You’re exactly on the right path. First of all you have to realize that everything is not real, which you have done. Then, later on, you have to realize the infinate reality of everything that is. In both cases the phrase “only Brahman is real” is true, because Brahman (the supreme reality) is not a “thing”.

The confusion comes about, I believe, because all these great teachers who say the world is not real (and there are many of them) actually mean, “the world of form (akara) is not real”. I think they leave the words “of form” out deliberately as it is difficult to understand. After all, what is a world of form? And what does a universe without form look like?

So they simply say, “the world is not real”, which leads the spiritual practitioner to deny the world and merge with the infinate formless state (Purusha/ Parashiva) in satchitananda (pure bliss consciousness). From that vantage point it is far easier to distinguish between the real and the unreal as the consciousness is already seated in the formless.

 

quote:I am that form, and the non-form, and the Source behind it all.

That's the viewpoint coming back in, after the denial of the world. So you see... it happens automatically.


 

Christi
 

[Anthem]

"All is Illusion
Only Brahman is Real
All is Brahman"

[emc]

"All is Illusion
Only Brahman is Real
All is Brahman"

When the illusion is seen through, when Brahman only is real, then it is obvious that it is all Brahman since Oneness is, but the world of form/the world of illusion does not become "real" in the same sense again as before. It is impossible to take it in with the same seriousness as before since so many ideas that was believed before just turned out not to be true! Believing solid is solid, that anything is separated from The Whole, that death is a tragedy and means some kind of loss... ridiculous! It is impossible to believe the world exists outside of 'me' as something else than me. Outside and inside looses it's meaning, since IT is everything, everywhere.

Discovering the illusion does not mean denial of the world. It is not even logically possible. On the contrary. Seeing through the illuson means embracing, loving and holding and being the world, the totality. Impossible for One to deny any part of itself... since it's only One - there are no parts to be denied.

The whole idea of being able to deny the world is only possible from a separated state of mind.

[Christi]

Hi EMC,

 

quote:"All is Illusion
Only Brahman is Real
All is Brahman"

When the illusion is seen through, when Brahman only is real, then it is obvious that it is all Brahman since Oneness is, but the world of form/the world of illusion does not become "real" in the same sense again as before. It is impossible to take it in with the same seriousness as before since so many ideas that was believed before just turned out not to be true! Believing solid is solid, that anything is separated from The Whole, that death is a tragedy and means some kind of loss... ridiculous! It is impossible to believe the world exists outside of 'me' as something else than me. Outside and inside looses it's meaning, since IT is everything, everywhere.

Discovering the illusion does not mean denial of the world. It is not even logically possible. On the contrary. Seeing through the illuson means embracing, loving and holding and being the world, the totality. Impossible for One to deny any part of itself... since it's only One - there are no parts to be denied.

The whole idea of being able to deny the world is only possible from a separated state of mind.

And seeing all this has what effect on the mind?

[Jim and His Karma]

Yeah, the problem with saying "we are naturally attracted to the  star....it is 'heaven.'"  is that one reads that and then immediately wants to GO THERE. The mind craves a goal!

I find it far more conducive when Yogani refers to all this stuff in one sweep as "Scenery". Perfectly nice, interesting, even profound, but utterly and intrinsically disregardable.

Who can disregard "heaven"?

[Christi]

Hi Jim

 

quote:Yeah, the problem with saying "we are naturally attracted to the star....it is 'heaven.'" is that one reads that and then immediately wants to GO THERE. The mind craves a goal!

I find it far more conducive when Yogani refers to all this stuff in one sweep as "Scenery". Perfectly nice, interesting, even profound, but utterly and intrinsically disregardable.

Who can disregard "heaven"?

I hope you are not confusing my meaning. When I asked EMC what effect seeing all this has on the mind, it was not a rhetorical question. I was not saying, “seeing all this has no effect on the mind, so it is not a worthwhile discussion or process”, and then phrasing it as a question which I had already answered! It was a genuine question, and I asked it because I see the relevance of discussing truth only comes when it is really seen. When it is really seen, it has an effect on the mind. We are discussing something in the mind, on the mental level using words, but a discussion about truth is a peculiar kind of discussion because it has the power to awaken. The Buddha once said, “the stories I tell you are like dreams. They are like dreams within a dream. But they are special kinds of dream because they have the power to wake you from your sleep.”

So discussing truth can just go round in circles if it remains only on the level of the mind. Then it can just become another form of false identity, like a belief system, something to become attached to. Attachment to a particular view of existence is just another form of attachment. It is not particularly special. It does not become truth unless it is seen clearly. And that is not an easy business.

EMC gave a most beautiful and insightful description of truth. But the usefulness of such a discussion (and such descriptions) as I see it, only comes when there is a transformational effect on the mind. Then only it has some meaning, some power, and that is why I asked the question. So my question remains: Seeing all this, what effect does it have on the mind?

Of course the matter, and usefulness of visions (stars or anything else), and the danger of attachment arising in connection with those visions is another question, and that is what you were referring to, so we are really discussing two different things.

I hope that clarifies something.

Christi

[Jim and His Karma]

Christi, FWIW  I was neither addressing nor referencing anything from you in my posting.

[tallis]

Jim wrote:

quote:Yeah, the problem with saying "we are naturally attracted to the star....it is 'heaven.'" is that one reads that and then immediately wants to GO THERE. The mind craves a goal!

I find it far more conducive when Yogani refers to all this stuff in one sweep as "Scenery". Perfectly nice, interesting, even profound, but utterly and intrinsically disregardable.

Who can disregard "heaven"?

bingo - you hit the nail on the head

but can you sweep heaven under the carpet?
is ignorance bliss?

(just being provocative, but you take my point...)

[Christi]

Hi Jim

 

quote:Christi, FWIW I was neither addressing nor referencing anything from you in my posting.

No worries Jim ! I was confused by the word "Yeah", in my country it means "yes"... like when you are agreeing with someone.

Christi

[Jim and His Karma]

My country as well. I was agreeing with EMC in this case. I maybe should have quoted back, but I was more riffing than replying.

[emc]

Christi: "Seeing all this, what effect does it have on the mind?"

Sorry for being late with an answer. It is a good question, Christi, and you bring up an important subject. It IS easy to get attached to the idea itself and formulate a model that just becomes another mind game. I agree that discussing something without anchoring it in stillness can be a tiresome merry-go-round, leading nowhere. When Truth is behind it, it will shine through and bring depth. You will have to be the judge of whether what I write rings true for you or not! I can only continue to write when impulses come, and sometimes they are totally 'unconnected' mindy posts, sometimes they are written through automatic finger movements (on such occasions my mind has a strong urge to express things like: "I didn't write that!!!" since it has nothing to do with what I actually think at that moment. I just watch with astonishment what comes out.), sometimes they are written from a state of tears flowing, presence, now.

I have tried to describe my journey continously in my posts, and still, I fear it is probably very unclear what it looks like. It is a roller coaster ride, where my mind has gone through several states in a non-logical order, and is still flip-flopping back and forth. It is a total mix, which sometimes drives me crazy and freaks me out, and sometimes is just totally accepted and easy to live with.

The first answer that came to my mind was:

I don't know. I don't remember. When being in the Now, there's sort of no need for remembering what the mind invents or what pops up. It is pretty quiet, and the thoughts that pop up are noticed but not believed, very often recognized as attempts to trigger old emotional wounds - I sort of just know what it tries to trigger, and it's my choice to believe it or not, to act on it or not, to fall for the emotion or not. Thoughts are seen with a bubbling joy as beautiful attempts to lovingly protect me somehow. On those occasions I just love my mind and welcome any thought that might pop up. And there's this huge feeling of freedom not to do anything but notice the patterns rising without any automatic emotional response to them. It's like everything just stops. As if the tennisball comes towards me in slow motion, and stops hanging in the air in front of me, and I have all the time in the world to try different positions with the racket before I have to hit it. I laugh. It's so amusing.

The next answer that came was: My most common thought/feeling when these moments of clarity hits me is a total humble gratefulness, and what flies through my mind is "I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy of this". And what follows then is an increased chain of thoughts leading to self-doubt, diminishing of myself, and *snap* I'm out of the peace, back into time and illusion, and I doubt I have come anywhere on this spiritual journey. It is SO NOT RATIONAL and NOT LOGICAL that me, little emc, is able to see all this. I am not an advanced yogi, it should not be possible, I must just be inventing this in my mind etc etc...

Then... there's this instant recognition when I read Truth in some of the books, or here on forum... I KNOW what they write about. They are exactly describing states I recognize.

And sometimes, when I'm deep in self-doubt... that soft, soft, gentle love comes and lifts my arms, moves my hands toward my face, and strokes my cheek so tenderly, strokes my hair, moves my arms so that I sort of hold myself as a baby and carress myself, and I cry helplessly... It is saying "You're doing fine. You are worthy. You are my love. You know. Trust. Have faith. Be patient."

And like this, my journey continues... with a mind eagerly trying to take credit of realizations, owning them and making stories out of them; with an increasing inner silence pushing the mind aside, taking its place and showing me what's real again and again...

As soon as the mind makes a story out of an experience or insight or realization, the universe does not shout for joy. It is a leaving of the Now, going into past events and the openness and expansion is immediately gone. Only living the realizations in presence as a direct experience brings freedom. I am not able to live Truth fully aware yet. I am still too muddy. But I cannot either go back and believe what I have come to know as NOT TRUE. I have swallowed the red pill, and I'm now on my training camp, going in and out of Matrix in order to detach more and more from the old belief patterns while inside it, being challenged every day. Daily practices means going out of the Matrix, to land in Truth and regain strength and courage and download even more wisdom to help on the quest...

Did that answer your question?

[Christi]

Hi EMC

That answers the question very well, thank you.

Christi