Chakra location

[x.j.]

Hi Kadak,
As far as Kala chakra mantra, (or any mantra for that matter)  requiring some ritualistic initiation and transmission from our teacher or guru, who is the flesh and blood representation of H.H. The Buddha, or from H.H. Lord Shiva, could one say, along the lines of AYP principles, that we have or ARE that guru within us?  Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism in particular, seems steeped in ritual and formality which may not be so culturally needed in our free ranging and fiercely independent minded western culture.  Besides I am just a simple guy, with no physical guru in sight, and so we have little recourse but to have faith in that guru within us. Or alternatively,  you may be willing to conceed to the premise that we had the pleasure and the grace of sitting with this allegedly required guru in a previous lifetime whom we needed so much to have as the flesh and blood representation of Divinity, during that previous incarnation, and our guru has dropped the body and now you have become that representation of the guru, yourself. And so ultimately, in this brief and sweet physical incarnation of yours and mine, we are left with the ultimate wisdom of H.H. Yogani and his thematic statement which it is a great honor to now myself recite and resolve, as his momentary representative, here, in webspace, that...The guru is in you. Much love to you.
John

[kadak]

Hi John, I'm not someone very fond of gurus, and during 10 years I worked alone. But now that I can "feel" what gurus do (at a certain level, at least), I know that they help much. Tibetan buddhist seems to be stuck in some ritualism, but it is our ignorance which makes us believe this. As soon as you can feel the subtle body (and higher), you can feel the transmissions, which are done directly from subtle level to subtle level, and it is not imagination. There is another level of transmission, which is said to be "mind to mind", but I cannot feel it because it affects the causal body which I can't feel for the moment. But, as the subtle body has proved to be true, I think the causal and supracausal body are themselves existing, and that direct transmissions exist at this level.
If you had seen a fully accomplished master, an avatar like Amma or Mother Meera, you wouldn't say that. What they do is really astonishing. The Shakti that Amma has put in her practices is great, but if you do the practice without the transmission, it'll be worth nothing. Tibetan practices are designed like that, especially mantras.

[x.j.]

I disagree regarding your comment regarding a mantra practice: "if you do the practices without the transmission, it will be worth nothing".
So let's agree to disagree!
John

[kadak]

OK, but please note that it is not I who says this, but the masters. A tertön would say his terma is ineffective without transmission, and Amma says her mantras are ineffective without initiation. There are of course effective mantras like Om mani padme hung etc... which can be used without initiation but for Kalachakra for example, the "discoverer" of the practice would say that one needs an initiation. And personnally, I couldn't do a practice against the advice of its discoverer. If you disregard a master, you cannot think better of his practice. That's just logic.

[Jim and His Karma]

kadak, a few thoughts, if you don't mind a bit of disagreement!

There isn't a lineage/tradition in the world that doesn't maintain that lineage (e.g. by requiring initiation) with at least some degree of tenacity. That's how you preserve a teaching, and I'm not knocking teachers for building in such procedures (though I suspect it's just as often about preserving profitability as preserving a lineage...in fact, the two are inextricably close). But time has proven, again and again (particularly in the past hundred years, when the cats have gotten out of the bag) that one can definitely unwind such political procedures from spiritual practice without ill effect.

Nearly everything taught in AYP is torn out of the playbook of one or more lineages/traditions. It's VERY pick-and-choosy, it's VERY about disregarding the bulk of injunctions and instructions from those who've passed down these practices. And it works well, nonetheless. This proves one needn't buy the whole package to extract the pearls.

I'm not saying that gurus don't help, however.

[yogibear]

Hi Jim,

 

quote:Jim wrote:

There isn't a lineage/tradition in the world that doesn't maintain that lineage (e.g. by requiring initiation) with at least some degree of tenacity. That's how you preserve a teaching, and I'm not knocking teachers for building in such procedures (though I suspect it's just as often about preserving profitability as preserving a lineage...in fact, the two are inextricably close).

Wouldn't you say that it is also fundamentally and basically a way to preserve the ego as well?

"My school, my tradition, my way, my importance. I/we am/are right and you are all wrong." Etc., etc., etc.

Best, yb.

[Jim and His Karma]

There are good and non-egoic reasons to preserve a lineage. That motives of preservation can be copted by ego is undoubtedly true. But fundamentally and basically? I think that's overstatement.

[yogibear]

quote:Jim wrote:

That motives of preservation can be copted by ego is undoubtedly true. But fundamentally and basically? I think that's overstatement.

Perhaps initially it is an overstatement. But who can say what were the initial motivations of the founder of a lineage? You would hope they were pure.


 

quote:though I suspect it's just as often about preserving profitability as preserving a lineage...

This statement is what I was thinking about. I was thinking more about the inevitable inclusion of egos in the group with less altruistic motives than those of the initiator which is maybe what you are referring to in the above quote.

[riptiz]

Hi Jim,
"There are good and non-egoic reasons to preserve a lineage. That motives of preservation can be copted by ego is undoubtedly true. But fundamentally and basically? I think that's overstatement."

I agree with you on that, in my experience that is an overstatement although in some cases that may be the case.In my experience there are valid reasons for preserving lineages although I only speak of the one I am a part of.Following the siddha path which uses shaktipat as a means of spiritual growth I can categorically state(in my experience)that there is no substitute for advancement than shaktipat.If done in the correct manner it eliminates many years of practices neeeded to awaken the Kundalini and in a safer manner with fewer problems or side effects.Again as we have stated before shaktipat is no sustitute for practicing, it is only 'lighting the stick' so we still need to work.If only to preserve the means of 'lighting the stick' and aiding others in their spiritual path,then I think there is a serious argument for preserving some lineages.
L&L
Dave

[selfonlypath]

Hi,

I would like to know if AYP system makes a difference regarding the physical locations between the sexual chakra, Ida and Pingali for a woman and a man.

The reason for my question is that Tibetan schools introduce three secret or sexual chakras: secret, middle secret and tip secret. When  reading Lama Yeshe book "The Bliss of Inner Fire", one can find a different location in the body for a man and a women for these three secret chakras. Furthermore, there seems to be specific red tantric technique to merge the feminine secret chakras with the masculine secret chakras.

The other book by Gueshe Kelsang Gyatso "Clear Light of Bliss" does not introduce for some reason such polarity and biology position difference. In fact, this book seems to be really oriented for man only unless the book does not want to reveal specific secrets about the  uniqueness of a woman sexual chakras.

Another difference I've found is about Ida (Left channel) and Pingali (right channel) where from Hindu or Tibetan, both start at the respective nostrils hence that part is in sync but there is a difference where they end. The tibetan schools say Left Channel ends up at the end of the sexual organ and Right Channel ends at the anus. Again both books do not give a precise location of what is the end of a sexual orgam for a woman which is a missing information I'm looking for on AYP, Hindu or Tibetan perspective.

Thank you in advance if you can answer my questions, Albert

[yogani]

Hi Albert, and a belated welcome!

There have been discussions in the forums on unique experiential factors noticed in the lower centers for women practitioners. I can't put my finger on the link(s) at the moment, but perhaps the ladies who were involved in those discussions can point you to them.

Generally, in the AYP approach we do not focus too much on the inner mechanics, either intellectually or experientially, as the practices we use are sufficient to cultivate the necessary awakening in both sexes, which is the expansion of inner silence no matter where we happen to be looking in the neurobiology. There is a potential cost in focusing on the detailed mapping -- it can distract us from the whole of human spiritual transformation. This was also discussed in my previous post in this topic, regarding localized kundalini/energy symptoms.    

All the best!

The guru is in you.

[emc]

Hehe... I remember this one - For the ladies!:

http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=1787&

If you read it it will become obvious why it got me to conclude Yogani was absolutely right about not diving too much under the hood...

[kadak]

quote:
Nearly everything taught in AYP is torn out of the playbook of one or more lineages/traditions. It's VERY pick-and-choosy, it's VERY about disregarding the bulk of injunctions and instructions from those who've passed down these practices. And it works well, nonetheless. This proves one needn't buy the whole package to extract the pearls.

I'm the first to pick techniques everywhere, with or without proper initiation...  but it has its limits. It is difficult to evaluate the effect of a technique, compared to another. But since Amma's shaktipad, it seems to me that everything has become different.
I received initiations which proved uneffective. Others which proved effective. I'm just saying that an effective initiation can spare much time... and time is precious.
If it wasn't the case, tulkous of the old times wouldn't travel the whole Tibet to meet dozens of masters. They would just stay home and practice by themselves. But to attain buddhahood (I mean omniscience and rainbow body) as did many of them, one may need some help.
Of course, I'm not aiming for that, but anyway, I'm trying to get the help I can.

[Jim and His Karma]

Well, it sounded like you were arguing all one way. And you maybe thought I was arguing the other way. In fact, we seem to agree right in the middle!

[x.j.]

Several footnotes on nadis and chakras:
1. Ida and Pingala appear as a half moon and full moon in visual consciousness when first awaking from sleep. That's my personal long time every morning observation since I started this funny yoga stuff.
2. Laying on right side appears best regarding insights at time you awake. Another personal observation. Suspect due to Ida and Pingala, and that for men laying on right side is best because of Ida the non-dominant side nadi in men being allowed to flow more freely when the male anatomy is laying on the right, and suspect the opposite is true for women, who would do better not compressing Pingala, and thus laying on their left side best.(theoretical, not a personal observation since I am male.) Comments? Also, at time of death same reasoning applies as to body positioning and Ida/Pingala function. (See observation in the last paragraph, regarding The Buddha at death.)
3. Toes, feet, knees are very active energy centers, and as far as second chakra(Swadhisthana) issues: the testes, and glans penis are all active chakras (my observation). So that by analogy, regarding second chakra findings, I assume that the cervix and ovaries are the female anatomical counterparts that  intuitively correspond to the male chakras noted above. Intuitively both sexes should be very similar as far as the  hard wiring goes.
4. Lastly the obscure observation about The Buddha. He was reputed to have intentionally laid on his right side at the time of death. That is kind of interesting.