quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by Akasha
he,osho, says something like saying the mantra and listening to it can keep us alert so we don't drift into a sleep-induced state. But the rationale presented for the dm approach is presented as a technique to transcend the mind,and it's agenda.
And these are different ... how, exactly??
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Hello Kirtanman
I'll try to elaborate....
When we decide to listen to the mantra,then we are relinquishing perpetual control of the process(i.e meditation) to the Mind, it's own agenda,it's constant proliferation of thoughts, so the Mind is not transcended, as it is free to do it's thing- that means divide,strucuture & organise our experience. We observe the thoughst bubbling up,monitor our experience,watch, rather than attempt to silence the mental eddies and thought streams through the vehicle of the mantra, viv-a-vis , by plunging into the thoughtless state of PBC.
What always has been fudging these kinds of analyses of "experiential phenomena"( that seems like a loose enough bracket), for me, is definitions of Mind and Consciousness.
This is my understanding(albeit unlearned as i have studied some western philopshy ,years ago now, but not eastern) Mind is subsumed by Conciousness. It is a part of it but it is not PBC- Pure bliss Consciousness. From AYP perspective mind is thought and PBC is free from thought, our natural state, thought-waves being modifications of the mind.
PBC transcends the Mind, is free of Mind.
This now i feel is a a debatable area for me, and it is an interesting conceptual teaser..As i say,You could make the point that there might be nothing to distinguish between the two,saying and thinking,the mantra that is, on an experiential level..As it is a valid point . Are they saying the mantra or thinking it or arguably they are doing both, both being indistinguishable. For the purposes of discussing mantra procedure/technique, listening and saying
are different . But experientially they could be the same.
We could transcend the mind and it's activites by listening to the mantra but it might seem by gently favouring saying it( that is you could also be conceivably listening to it in the background which creates another division in the mind,separation, not dhyana) we avoid lettting or allowing Mind have it's way.
I'd really need to read Osho's book myself and try other technqiues described there or elsewhere to justly comment. So even if i knew all the conceptual philosophy to discuss i'd still need to qualifiy it with experience.
Perhaps you can clarify some of this, particularly definitons of Mind and Consciousness and how they relate.I've never been big on jnana yoga although i do get those very satisfying nisrgardatta ahaaaaa moments when the rational mind has something to feel satiated with and it is not chasing it's tail with fruitless loop-the-loop enquiries.
In my remark I was referring to the difference between techniques. One is Oshos' suggestion(i.e to guard against sleep by also listening to the mantra), and the other is Yogani's formulation( simply just say the mantra). The effects being the same, more inner silence. ONly then does all this jnana yoga
really make sense, as it were.
What does it mean to transcend the Mind-?- in ayp terms it is to reach PBC, a place where inner silence is resident.It almost seems like it is a place of nothingness or "emptiness" as Carson or Lahiri mahasaya put it.("emptiness and euphoria"/inner silence and ecstasy)) beyond space & time , an invisible no-place,awareness ,consciousness beyond Mind, thoughts, constrictions,divisions and endless labelling.
How would Osho have explained it- well i have'nt read enough of his books which i guess i'll get round to at some point, as well as 'I Am That'. I used to believe he was a quack- like willaim blake he's just misunderstood.
You will have got by now that i was referring to practical differences in technique, not theoretical. Any superifical differences boil down mainly to a matter of interpretation,what we mean when we talk about these experiences.
So the osho technque might transcend Mind but just listening to the mantra may be less effective than saying or a combination as osho suggested..In some ways just listening pre-suposses some mantra vibrational tuning has already been undertaken, if that makes any sense. That the mantra will mysteriously emanates ,of it's won free will ,from the Source or well of inner silence.
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Yogani said himself in that V. informative thread I reference above that Osho was not big on mantra meditation- it was not his forte( 'focus of his teachings'), he was a “liqourice allsorts” teacher- these are all my words btw. I find that at once surpising ( though I trust Yogani's knowledge) that he was not up on mantra meditaion given his supposed classic 'Book of Secrets' which i've never read btw( i'll get it off ********** :@))but covers the full gamut(or a lot perhaps), spectrum of meditation techniques( 104 or so, for every type of individual) I am surpised that he is not up on it but I can also understand why he might have not liked or favoured such a practice either. I remember the 3 months rule/suggestion too- or was it 40 days- perhaps that was it. And those videos on U-tube paint this charismatic figure that literally looks like an alien from another planet( another side-effect of enlightenement perhaps :@)) he would say-' try it ,see what happens,what resonates with you' or something like that. Like a cross between a sheik and the ambassador of neptune.
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I like Osho's message, soul & style,his heart; he sounds a liberated individual free of neurosis or societal ,repressive atiitudes, not anally-retentive, if I can use that word here, or prudish...He is his own master-he does not follow the herd. In short, one of the cool folk[8D]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeEDKBxkNgMHope this makes sense..
