Hi Ethereal Ecstasy,
quote:
Originally posted by Ethereal_Ecstasy
A couple of days ago, I reread a post in the forum questioning the effectiveness of the SPB, which I guess made me question the effectiveness of AYP overall:
quote:
"When kriya pranayam is taught with only inhalation and exhalation in the sushumna nadi or spine and excludes the mantra japa at the chakras, the student is merely doing a physical exercise and not a spiritual exercise. The physical exercise of inhaling and exhaling through the sushumna nadi may prove relaxing, you may feel more physically energized, and may even clear the nadi of blockages but it will not lead to higher states of consciousness because without the use of mantra only the 5 pranas of material substance are being used. When the appropriate mantras of the Lahiri tradition are used, the light of the Soul / Krishna Consciousness is invoked and eventually experienced. The correct method for this practice should be learned from a qualified kriya guru....It is very sad that many people have been taught kriya proper without mantra japa at each chakra. Some have practiced this incorrect method for many years with no spiritualizing results."
As a kriyaban and an AYP practitioner, and as one who has completed sadhana (realized liberation in this life), I can tell you:
The information you quoted above is not correct.
AYP Spinal Breathing, and the initial Kriya (breathing/visualization) given upon kriya initiation, are very, very similar. There are slight differences, and Yogani gives his reasoning for these differences in the AYP Spinal Breathing Pranyama book, and in the AYP Lessons (as well as in the post above, I just saw ....
![Big Smile [:D]](http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/Smileys/akyhne/icon_smile_big.gif)
).
Part of the power of both kriya yoga and AYP, is that both systems offer incremental enhancements for practitioners, as they become ready.
The AYP Spinal Breathing Pranayama book, and related AYP lessons address the specifics of AYP's approach to optimizing spinal breathing/pranayama, just as various kriya yoga groups and paths offer their own views on the best ways to approach spinal breathing/pranayama, overall.
In my own experience, AYP was significantly more effective than kriya yoga ever was, for me, from the outset (I practiced kriya for a few years immediately prior to AYP).
Seeing the similarities between the two approaches, and appreciating Yogani's logic, and having no strong prejudice in favor of kriya yoga, I had no issue simply giving AYP a try.
I had also been initiated into TM (Transcendental Meditation) back in the 90s, which I had practiced off and on, prior to becoming a kriyaban.
I was astounded at the results of AYP practice, which I posted about at the time. I joined the forum within a year or so after starting AYP - there are posts from me, from 2006, the year I joined the AYP Forum, which talk about my happy surprise at the power of AYP, in comparison to other systems.
Is this because AYP spinal breathing is superior to kriya pranayama?
I can't say, definitively, per the fact that the foundation of AYP is that each practice session includes spinal breathing *&* deep meditation, and this is clearly very much a case of "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts".
Kriya Yoga is a relatively powerful system; some of its schools have produced enlightenment, which is more than many spiritual systems can say.
Ditto TM.
Ditto quite a few other systems - the practices found within Dzogchen and Vajrayana Buddhism; Tantric Shaivism; Advaita Shaiva (aka Kashmir Shaivism), Advaita, neo-Advaita, Zen, Kabbalah, Sufism, Mystical Christianity, Sikhism, Jainism, Alchemy, Gnosticism, Taoism, and at least a few other systems around the world, and throughout history.
No one system's, or even "two systems'" or "few systems'" practices, have any kind of "corner on the enlightenment market".
It all boils down to the complete earnestness of the practitioner, and daily dedication to a proven set of practices/observation, until enlightenment results.The advantage of AYP, in my experience and therefore in my estimation, is that a very experienced yoga practitioner (Yogani, who had at least 30 years' experience or so, when he created AYP), was willing to take a fresh look at "all things yoga" from an open-minded, fresh, and technically astute standpoint.
Without any reliance on the either benefits or the prejudices of a given tradition, Yogani just looked at structuring a system that seemed like it could be an improvement over existing systems -- to be determined and verified (or not) by the actual experience of practitioners.
Worked into AYP from the outset was the "open source" philosophy of being willing to build upon what works, discard what doesn't, and add in anything else that might prove to be important or effective.
Two Examples Of This:
1. Self-Inquiry
AYP initially didn't focus on self-inquiry, but rather on body-based practices, only. However, as AYP evolved (mostly via practitioners experiencing tangible results, and thus becoming ready for practices that are even more advanced than what AYP offered at the time), Self-Inquiry was officially added into AYP, the Self-Inquiry book was published, and as with both spinal breathing (similar to kriya/pranayama) and deep meditation (similar to other mantra japa forms of meditation, such as TM), Yogani saw and articulated some specific nuances regarding how to help Self-Inquiry be most effective.
2. Self-Pacing
AYP self-pacing is exactly analogous to common-sense wisdom in the world of exercise: if you overtrain, and your muscles aren't just sore, but super-sore ... take it easy for a "day or few". If you have a slight injury, take a break for a few days, and so on. However, most other systems either don't address this at all, or they have the guru offer the guidance (one of the key reasons a guru is said to be necessary, or that one needs to be part of a spiritual community with a guru, and advanced acharyas, teachers, who can provide so-called technical support). AYP brings the simple wisdom of self-pacing, which nearly anyone can manage on their own, if they're genuinely willing to do so, into self-directed sadhana, such as we have here.
In my experience, the combination of self-directed practice, combined with opening, in ever greater degree, to the highest intuitive wisdom (pratibha, in Sanskrit) of the inner guru (aka Self, aka God), is at least as effective as connection with, and guidance from, any so-called outer guru (per my attaining the same ultimate results that any system can offer, I can say this not only "with confidence", but from a place of knowing that is far deeper than mind can imagine knowing to be).
And so, purely as an alternate point of view regarding kriya "vs." AYP discussion, that's an overview of my experience, and experience-derived conclusions.
![Smile [:)]](http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/Smileys/akyhne/icon_smile.gif)
quote:
Although this statement did disturb me somewhat, it also did seem like a very closed-minded, presumptuous thing to say, especially seeing as it was from a Kriya Yoga practitioner, who, if I’m not mistaken, often argue among themselves over which traditions are the most authentic through these “Kriya Wars”. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell myself, anyways. ![Woohoo! [:p]](http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/Smileys/akyhne/icon_smile_tongue.gif)
With good reason.
The more close-minded a given statement is, the more at odds it is with reality, inherently.
If someone says "this is my experience", this may well be useful, in terms of the actions it inspires you to undertake ... but even then, "your mileage may vary" as they say .... and so, the only experience that really ever matters is your own.
If someone says "this is my idea" ..... which usually amounts to "this is actually someone else's idea, that my mind feels motivated to accept as true, and therefore I am adamantly telling you is true" ..... it is very similar to discussing the possible reasons for the euphoria often displayed by Bugs Bunny (drug habit? Bi-polar tendencies? Effect of cartoon-show scripting? All three?
![Big Smile [:D]](http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/Smileys/akyhne/icon_smile_big.gif)
) .... namely:
"Possibly entertaining to discuss {or not}, but utterly unconnected with any aspects of actuality."
Ideas, and ideas about ideas have nothing to do with enlightenment; in fact, they are what preclude enlightenment and create unenlightenment.
This is why Yogani's ongoing statement, especially recently, related to this, has been:
"Practice wisely, {and thereby} come see for yourself."
I concur, and based on results, I'm in at least a somewhat-reasonable position to do so, I'd say.
![Smile [:)]](http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/Smileys/akyhne/icon_smile.gif)
quote:
I did read the remaining replies in that thread, but what I’m probably looking for above all else is confirmation from direct experience that AYP indeed works rather than pure scientific explanations.
You have it ("please see above").
AYP works all the way; AYP can facilitate enlightenment --- and at least as quickly and effectively, and I'd say quite possibly more so, in certain ways ... than the most effective systems the world has ever seen, prior to AYP, and up to this current moment.
The one variable than could make it seem otherwise, depending upon who you ask, who is speaking from experience rather than prejudicial belief, is the earnestness and dedication of the practitioner.
(All belief is prejudicial, by the way - a pre-judgment - an evaluation based in conditioned memory and imagination -- is what belief
is - which is why it is said:
no belief is true.)
As I said recently in another thread, a dedicated kriyaban will run circles around a lackluster AYPer, just as a dedicated AYPer will run circles around a lackluster kriyaban, and a dedicated practitioner of inquiry-only will run circles around lackluster practitioners of AYP or kriya yoga.
Earnestness and dedicated are the fuel ..... practices are the vehicle.
Airplane travel costs more, per person, than auto travel - until you factor in what is actually involved, pragmatically, in a five hour flight, vs. (in some cases) a five-day drive (including fuel, comfort, time-cost, food, lodging, etc. etc. etc.).
Kriya Yoga may well be the "airplane route to God" as Yogananda said.
And in my own experience, I would say that AYP is then the "Hyper-sonic transport" (new, compared to airplanes -- and being tested for global roll-out -- with some people having taken flights, and happily reporting that the trip is *awesome*).
![Smile [:)]](http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/Smileys/akyhne/icon_smile.gif)
quote:
I’m sure that the AYP following wouldn’t be as large as it is now if it didn’t provide any results and I know that there are probably a lot of posts in this part of the forum that refute what the above quote says, but I thought it would save me a few hours of reading if I directly asked the question in my own post.
"Here's hopin'".
![Big Smile [:D]](http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/Smileys/akyhne/icon_smile_big.gif)
quote:
Even if I say this repeatedly, I have never meant it more than I do now: any help is greatly appreciated! ![Big Smile [:D]](http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/Smileys/akyhne/icon_smile_big.gif)
~Ethereal Ecstasy~
Well, I hope what I wrote above is useful for you.
It's not a matter of Kriyaban saying one thing, and some of us saying another; this is the AYP Forum, after all (i.e. go to a kriya yoga forum, and you'll find at least as many kriyabans touting kriya - and probably more, since kriya has been around longer than AYP).
It's about what resonates with you as true, accurate, reasonable and motivating ... not in terms of conclusions your thinking-mind might reach (as I wrote above, those don't matter at all .... not even a little ... in and of themselves) ...... but in terms of consistent practices, fueled by dedication, which ultimately facilitate knowing your own true nature, liberation in this life, aka enlightenment in your experience.
That's the important part (enlightenment ---- yours).
![Smile [:)]](http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/Smileys/akyhne/icon_smile.gif)
And for that, nothing anyone else says matters at all, really --- or, rather, the more you accept, realize and act upon the actuality that nothing anyone else says matters at all ... and simply practice daily, with unswerving dedication to realize liberation and enlightenment .... the sooner your dream will end, and the sooner your enjoyment of enlightenment will begin.
For this, it's not the words of others that matter, and it's most certainly not the word-based ideas in thinking-mind, either.
It's the light of your own highest intuition ........ what do you genuinely feel drawn to? What truly feels right .... without thinking about it?
![Smile [:)]](http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/Smileys/akyhne/icon_smile.gif)
As Yogani ends every post and every lesson with:
"The guru is in you."
And I'm here to tell you: that statement is true, but only utterly.
![Smile [:)]](http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/Smileys/akyhne/icon_smile.gif)
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
![Smile [:)]](http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/Smileys/akyhne/icon_smile.gif)