Kabbalah, Gnosticism and Christianity

[david_obsidian]

Chiron,

"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:20


I don't know if you want your righteousness to exceed anyone else's,  but it's not my agenda here at all.   I ain't interested in being more righteous than no scribes and no Pharisees.    [deliver in the rap-song idiom  -- finish with downswipe and then folded arms]. I am merely giving advice about how to hold a civil conversation.

I don't feel very involved in this conversation,  rather, I'm making an effort to have people be fair in the way they conduct it.  if you want to be fair, think about symmetry -- don't use a tactic or mode of expression that you would find objectionable in a person you would disagree with.   Another utterance of questionable fairness, by the way, is: " It should be obvious to anybody who has ever read it seriously."

Chiron said:
Most Christian churches today whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Greek or Eastern Orthodox have lost their core esoteric teachings. This is evident from the fact that the hundreds of millions of people who follow them and claim to be Christian are not actually living spiritual lives. This is because the Bishops and the Deacons of those churches are not leading by example and are not walking in the footsteps of Christ.

Chiron,  is it really the fault of the Bishops and the Deacons?  Tell me that you didn't include 'Deacons' because you know Doc is a Deacon.... Was there ever an established great esoteric core which those churches lost?   I don't think so,  but never mind that ---  one thing I can say with certainty in their defense:  however short you may believe the 'Bishops and Deacons' are in good example, all the ones I know of can give you good example in this: they don't preach outside their congregations.

[VIL]

Christi,

I think that your intuitive sense is correct.

We can relate to God through the nervous system and call the experience dimensions or something else, as long as we derive its benefits.  The reason why we have great practices like AYP:



VIL

[Chiron]

quote:Originally posted by david_obsidian
I don't know if you want your righteousness to exceed anyone else's,  but it's not my agenda here at all.   I ain't interested in being more righteous than no scribes and no Pharisees.    [deliver in the rap-song idiom  -- finish with downswipe and then folded arms]. I am merely giving advice about how to hold a civil conversation.

Yes I definitely want my righteousness to exceed those of the fat priests and Pharisees who claim to be religious yet live materialistic lives.  As far as I could tell you were simply picking on irrelevant things and ignoring the main points of Philip's posts.

quote:Originally posted by david_obsidian
I don't feel very involved in this conversation,  rather, I'm making an effort to have people be fair in the way they conduct it.  if you want to be fair, think about symmetry -- don't use a tactic or mode of expression that you would find objectionable in a person you would disagree with.   Another utterance of questionable fairness, by the way, is: " It should be obvious to anybody who has ever read it seriously."

Well, have you not noticed the mathematical patterns and puzzles throughout the Bible?  If you haven't then you haven't read it seriously because the whole book is littered with them.  

quote:Originally posted by david_obsidian
Chiron, is it really the fault of the Bishops and the Deacons? Tell me that you didn't include 'Deacons' because you know Doc is a Deacon. Was there ever an established great esoteric core which those churches lost? I don't think so, but never mind that --- one thing I can say with certainty in their defense: at least all the Bishops and Deacons I know of have stopped preaching outside their congregations.  

All the Christian churches have their roots in the esoteric teachings such as kabbalah, gnosticism and hesychasm.  In today's materialistic world religions have become exoteric, polluting and pushing out of sight the true teachings of Jesus Christ (esoteric).  This ofcourse is not completely the fault of Bishops and Deacons (representatives of those religions) as it is the age we live in when materialistic energies are at their strongest. But when people go around knocking on doors telling others they need to join a church to be saved when they themselves are attached to materialism then they do begin to bear responsibility.  But I guess you don't know that many Bishops or Deacons.

[Doc]

quote:Originally posted by Chiron

There is no doubt that the Bible is written in code.  It should be obvious to anybody who has ever read it seriously.  

Most Christian churches today whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Greek or Eastern Orthodox have lost their core esoteric teachings.  This is evident from the fact that the hundreds of millions of people who follow them and claim to be Christian are not actually living spiritual lives.  This is because the Bishops and the Deacons of those churches are not leading by example and are not walking in the footsteps of Christ.

You have now transited from the ridiculous to the absurd.

"Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact."  George Eliot

You should really stick to writing about things that you actually know something about! Are you a Christian? A clergyman? How many Bishops or Deacons do you know personally, that you can speak of how they may or may not "lead by example"?

People of ALL religious persuasions worldwide lead non-spiritual, materialistic lives because they choose to do so. They make what they 'have' physically the top priority, rather than 'who' they are spiritually. This choice is seen among Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Gnostics, et al, and probably has nothing whatsoever to do with the presence or absence of any "core esoteric teachings" in their respective religions, since they are not interested in such things anyway....even if they had access to them!

If the merit of your spiritual path and practices can only be validated by denigrating the spiritual paths of those who hold a different view from your own, how good can it be? Please speak freely of the merit and value of your path, based on your personal experience with it, but please do so without constantly drawing negative comparisons to other paths.

"Very few men are wise solely by their own counsel, or learned solely by their own teaching; for he that was taught only by himself had a fool for his master." Ben Jonson

Happy Holidays!

Doc

[Chiron]

Who am I?  Well, I am just dust.  I have no authority or power over anything.  That is why I will not call anyone a fool or their teaching a heresy.

But the spiritual level of today's people is miserable.  This is an obvious fact and I am not drawing any negative comparisons.  Hundreds of millions of those people call themselves Christian.  Yet they do not seek God inside themselves and they do not bear the cross of Jesus Christ (Which, by the way, is inside each one us (http://www.omnadelight.com/Images/YogiSm.jpg).  And neither do their Bishops or Deacons.  I know this because I have never come across a Christian bishop or deacon or minister who's abilities exceeded that of a normal person which tells me that they have not made much progress in their spiritual path, maybe you are an exception to that Doc, I don't know.   So in my opinion the established churches and their representatives bear responsibility, at least in part, for the low spiritual levels and materialistic attachments of their followers.

Why do most people today not seek to be still and do not hold the progress of their soul as the most important goal of their life?  Why do the Bishops and Deacons of the established churches not stress that God must first be found inside each one of our hearts?  Found through specific spiritual practice that involves the development of the body, mind and soul.  Why do so many truthseekers turn to yoga and himalayan buddhism?  Is it not because the vast majority of today's established churches and their representatives lack esoteric knowledge?

Btw, I am not picking on Christians.. most of what I said can be applied to all other mainstream religions.

[david_obsidian]

Chiron said:
As far as I could tell you were simply picking on irrelevant things and ignoring the main points of Philip's posts.


Far from it,  Chiron;  it wasn't on topic per se, but it wasn't irrelevant: it was a point-of-order,  in support of Doc's complaint.

It may surprise you,  but Deacon Doc of the Established Religions has been the good example of not preaching outside his congregation here.  Look carefully if you don't believe me;  he can get provoked easily and will complain strongly if he is:  but he hasn't been directly preaching his own beliefs to the unrequesting masses (though he will tell us what he or his tradition believes).

If any kind of preacher turns up here, they're going to be called on it.  If you are wavin' the bible and telling us what is the true word o' God,  you're a-preachin'.  That would go not just for Southern Baptist preachers but for Gnostic preachers too -- preachin' is preachin' either way.  And if you are drawing negative simplistic pictures of the others whom you believe lost the true word o' God,  whether conventional Christians or Gnostics or Pagans or whatever, you're a-preachin' in a sectarian manner.

There is truth in what I say here,  Chiron.  You might not have realized that you were preaching, but you were.  In any case what remains is an opportunity to see here that you have been doing it and to stop.  Do just that and it is no biggie at all -- we all need to be pulled up now and again.  And then to just get on with things -- and to tell us what you believe about these things without crossing the sectarian preaching line.  That's all.  

Oh yes, and Philip -- welcome to the forum.  

[Chiron]

Sorry david, but I don't have a congregation.  I don't even have a religion.  So I got nothing to preach here.  And no there is no truth in what I say because the truth cannot be said and these are not the words of God.. And if you actually want to post something which is relevant to the points in my posts then I will gladly explain my views further.  There goes my attempt to keep you and Doc open-minded to new interpretations.. but its ok if you want to stick to your pre-established conclusions.

[Philip]

Obviously, no amount of debate or discussion solves any problem in truth. The truth at hand cannot be found anyone inside of the mind, for the mind does not have the ability to grasp the truth, only the shadow of it. Thus, we find ourselves always arguing over the shapes of shadows when indeed we have forgotten what produced them.

Logic, no matter how elegantly presented, is subjective. Any argument can be countered with an equally matched antithesis. The result is ignorance, which indeed is the anti-gnosis.

The Gnostics have always been on the fringe, have never been accepted by the masses and I fully understand the impetus of the feelings expressed on this thread concerning my words.

I, nor does anyone else, has the right to provoke any emotion, good or evil, in another person. It is good to note that the latter is the result of psychological slavery, which is a form of suffering. Absolute and perfect psychological equilibrium can be understood as the Narrow Gate and the Middle Way that few are able to adhere to.

Theories bore me. Belief tires me. Therefore what I wish, for everyone here, is the Nativity of Christ to transpire within our hearts and minds so that all this confusion, conflict, negative emotions, darkness and gnashing of teeth washes away into a sea of infinite delights and awesome happiness.

quote:Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. - Matthew 7:13

With these words of the Adorable Savior, let us meditate on the fact that it is not I who states that few know the True Way, but Him.

quote:You beings on earth who are deep in slumber...
Stop sleeping!
Wake up!
What are you waiting for?
- The Zohar

Love not sleep, lest thou come to poverty; open thine eyes, [and] thou shalt be satisfied with bread.
– Proverbs 20:13

Bull-like, noble, a hero, a great sage, and a conqueror, he who is motionless of mind, washed clean and awakened – that is what I call a brahmin.
– Buddha

[Doc]

Greetings Chiron and Philip:

I hold no grudge against either of you. I also have no desire to engage the two of you in a 'my religion is better than your religion' debate and 'mud slinging' contest. In fact, quite sincerely, I feel great empathy and compassion for both of you. And I would like you to know that it saddens my heart to think that you apparently had an unpleasant 'church experience' or a hurtful religious upbringing, probably in a Christian church congregation of some kind.

Not outside Christianity looking in, as if trying to peer through darkly tinted glass, but from the inside where I am able to fully and clearly see the intrinsic value of everything within, I can tell you from direct and profound personal experience that Eastern Orthodox Christianity does in fact possess an 'Inner Circle' compilation of esoteric spiritual writings, teachings, and practices.

Traditionally, from the earliest days of Christianity, these materials and practices have been accessible to all Orthodox, but have been primarily preserved and perpetuated by monastics and ordained clergymen. This is because individuals in these two groups most often represent the majority of those who thirst for such Knowledge, Revelation, and Illumination.

I am such an individual, having been both a monk and a clergyman. Thus, I humbly speak on behalf of this 'hidden tradition' by posting on topics such as this one! It's a dirty job sometimes, but someone needs to do it!

I am not at liberty to openly discuss some things, but can freely comment on other topics at my own discretion.  And I will gladly do so if there is an interest, but only if the Christian bashing ceases and desists on this thread.

Happy Holidays!

Doc    

[david_obsidian]

Chiron said: Sorry david, but I don't have a congregation. I don't even have a religion. So I got nothing to preach here.

Yes.  Double the reason not to preach.

Chiron said:  There goes my attempt to keep you and Doc open-minded to new interpretations.. but its ok if you want to stick to your pre-established conclusions.

You are just dust? You are styling yourself as the humble servant-of-god,  aren't you?  I'm really wondering which is true --- that you can't see your aggressive and presumptuous mode of delivery at all, or that you love it too much to let it go?

Let me make one thing totally clear:  I don't object to your beliefs at all, or to your expressing them here.  What I am criticizing is what you are doing here on the forum.  

Philip said: The Gnostics have always been on the fringe, have never been accepted by the masses and I fully understand the impetus of the feelings expressed on this thread concerning my words.

Yeah,  the Rebel Force,  heroically struggling against the Evil Empire....  And you have something in your ship dressed in big cute Wookie-furs and which you may think is a Wookie, but it is breathing and talking just like Darth Vader.    [  kaaaaaw -phoooooh,  Arf-Arf! kaaaaaaw- phooooooh  Arf-Arf! -that's the sound of Darth Vader pretending to be a Wookie! ].  And that is the big self-styled-Wookie-within that is preaching here in a sectarian manner, waving the bible,  bashing mainstream Christianity,  and styling those who disagree as closed-minded.

C'mon,  snap down from the trip.  No-one's getting on your case here for being in the Rebel Force,  it's the sectarian bible-thumping that's pulling in the objections.

[Philip]

quote:Yeah,  the Rebel Force,  heroically struggling against the Evil Empire....  And you have something in your ship dressed in big cute Wookie-furs and which you may think is a Wookie, but it is breathing and talking just like Darth Vader.    [  kaaaaaw -phoooooh,  Arf-Arf! kaaaaaaw- phooooooh  Arf-Arf! -that's the sound of Darth Vader pretending to be a Wookie! ].  And that is the big self-styled-Wookie-within that is preaching here in a sectarian manner, waving the bible,  bashing mainstream Christianity,  and styling those who disagree as closed-minded.

C'mon,  snap down from the trip.  No-one's getting on your case here for being in the Rebel Force,  it's the sectarian bible-thumping that's pulling in the objections.

What I have done in a few posts is explain some esoteric symbolism held by the initatic schools of present day and antiquity. Those who wish to verify these things through their own study can do so. Furthermore, and what is of greater import, is for one to awaken their consciousness, leave their dense body at will and study in the temples that exist in the superior worlds of the cosmos. Anyone is free to do this.

The very nature of an esoteric symbolism is 100% antagonistic to those who do not believe it exists because it undermines the very basis of those sects, schools, churches, etc., that do not accept it. Likewise, by stating it does not exist, one is bashing Gnosticism, the revelations that Jesus unveiled to his 70 disciples after his resurrection in The Pistis Sophia (Books of the Savior), etc. Speaking as a Gnostic inherently offends those who believe it to be heresy.

I will modify, then, my first post of this thread: According to Gnosticism, at first the Christians had this knowledge, yet, eventually lost it. According to the Gnostic Catholic Church, the entire Bible was written by those who knew the Kabbalah, and the Roman Catholic Church deviated from its source, the Gnostic Catholic Church, and today the Roman Catholic Church views Christic Esotericism as heresy. According to Gnostic Christianity, no one can understand the Bible, especially Genesis and Revelations without deep kabbalistic comprehension. The Gnostic Catholic Church separates itself from the Roman Catholic Church because it cannot accept the lack of the sexual teachings (sexual transmutation) that were given in code by Jesus Christ.

I apologize for my offensive tones in the previous posts.

[Doc]

quote:Originally posted by Philip:

What I have done in a few posts is explain some esoteric symbolism held by the initatic schools of present day and antiquity. The very nature of an esoteric symbolism is 100% antagonistic to those who do not believe it exists because it undermines the very basis of those sects, schools, churches, etc., that do not accept it. Likewise, by stating it does not exist, one is bashing Gnosticism, the revelations that Jesus unveiled to his 70 disciples after his resurrection in The Pistis Sophia (Books of the Savior), etc. Speaking as a Gnostic inherently offends those who believe it to be heresy.

Speaking again on behalf of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, I have already stated that an Esoteric Christian Spiritual Tradition and Method has always existed within the original Eastern Orthodox Christianity since the earliest times. What I don't accept as fact is the Completely Bogus and Totally False Claim that Gnostic Spirituality and/or Theology realistically represents the sole, legitimate and authentic depository of the Ancient Esoteric Christian Tradition!  

It was common knowledge among the immediate Apostles and Disciples of Jesus that His teaching of the public crowds who flocked to hear Him speak was different, both in content and in the manner of presentation, than what was taught to the 'Inner Circle' of His closest followers...the Apostles and Disciples who lived with Jesus and accompanied Him throughout His public ministry. This group of men and women represented immediate family members...such as St. James the Just, the first Christian Patriarch or Bishop of Jerusalem, who was a step-brother of Jesus (Joseph's son by his deceased wife prior to wedding Mary the mother of Jesus)...as well as the dearest friends and top students with whom Jesus had the closest...most personal...Living Relationships. Who would know better what Jesus really taught privately than those who were actually there!  

It is exactly these individuals who preserved in Blessed Memory the Esoteric Teachings and Methods which they initially received personally from Jesus Himself through Direct Oral Transmission and Ritual Initiation, the latter of which is now called Formal Ordination into Holy Orders. These same individuals in turn passed these Teachings and Methods on to their Initiate Disciples, who in turn passed the Tradition on to their Initiate Disciples, and so forth, down to the Present Time, in the same manner within the unbroken, Authentic Lineage of Apostolic Succession.

For ANYONE outside this Lineage of Direct Transmission to suggest or to claim that they and their alternative teachings and beliefs represent the most authentic depository of the Ancient Christian Esoteric Tradition, and the most legitimate interpretation of same, is simply not the case....and is therefore correctly identified as False Teaching or Heresy....insofar as they relate to Authentic Christianity. The Lord Jesus has in fact spiritually guided and protected the preservation and transmission of this Tradition within Orthodox Christianity, as evidenced by the historical record which verifies that Orthodoxy has NEVER ADDED TO, NEVER MODIFIED OR REVISED, NEVER REINTERPRETED, AND NEVER EDITED OR SUBTRACTED ANYTHING from the ORIGINAL DIRECT TRANSMISSION received from Jesus.  

Now this IS NOT to say that there is nothing of value in the Gnostic Tradition. I personally have never stated such a belief. I openly accept the logical possibility and the high probability that virtually every spiritual tradition that withstands the acid test of time through history, including the Gnostic Tradition, must contain elements of Eternal Truth and Divine Revelation at the core of their systems to sustain their Traditions over such long periods of time. This makes perfect, rational sense to me.

What doesn't make rational sense to me, however, as a few ridiculous examples, is that Fundamentalist Protestant Christian Churches have a more accurate perspective on the Teachings, Scriptures, and Traditions of Hinduism or Buddhism than the Hindus and Buddhists themselves do; or similarly, that Hindu or Buddhist Sages, Sadhus, Arhats, and Holy Men are alone privy to the truest interpretation of all religious and spiritual teachings, even outside their own religious schools and traditions!

By the same logical and rational reckoning, it makes no sense to me that Gnostics, Hindus, Buddhists, or Muslims, are likely to possess a more authentic perspective or a more legitimate teaching regarding the Original Esoteric Christian Tradition than does the Eastern or Greek Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church to whom the Tradition in question was initially given by Jesus Himself!  It doesn't take an Einstein level of intelligence to perceive this as probable fact!  

Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

Happy Holidays!

Doc

[yogani]

Hi All:

Pardon me for interrupting, but sectarian and/or political debates are not part of what we want to be doing in the AYP forums. There are plenty of other places to engage in such discussions.

We are interested in spiritual practices, their conduct, their effects, and optimization of the process of human spiritual transformation for maximum safe progress.

Please note that the name of this forum is "Other Systems of Spiritual Practice." Discussions on practices are welcome here from any source whatsoever. We can gain a lot from eachother that way. But the sectarian haggling is not welcome at all. We are yogis and yoginis here, and opportunistic ones at that. So we are always looking for useful angles on practice, and not a rehash of the foibles of human history.  

As for the dangling discussions on secret codes, inner circles, secret societies and teachings, better to limit those also, because they only reinforce sectarian divides. There is no "us and them" here. Only us.

In AYP we have no secrets! Anyone who wants to mention a secret here, better be prepared to tell it, and in practical terms directly related to the conduct of our daily spiritual practices. That we are very interested in.

Thanks very much for keeping these points in mind.

The guru is in you.

[n/a]

Gentlemen,  comparative discussion of religions is of some value to the AYP community,  but it can be difficult to discuss matters dear to the heart without getting heated by disagreement. So let's work as well as we can to get past the acrimony and onto the subject matter.  Here are two very good guidelines:

(a) Be fair: Generally speak to those who disagree with you as you would wish the person you disagree with to speak to you

(b) Tolerate unfairness: If the person who you disagree with isn't being entirely fair, let it slide as far as possible.

(I should credit one of the respondents here,  david_obsidian, insofar as I more or less copied that from what he said above.)

That boils down to (a) be as tolerable as possible and (b) be as tolerant as possible.

As you post, please ask yourselves if you are doing (a) and (b) as well as you can. Don't worry so much about whether the 'other guy' is doing it as well as he can -- part of (b) is letting stuff slide,  within limits.

I'm looking forward to seeing more of the topic itself -- if you have any energy for it.  

-AYP

P.S.  I composed my post as Yogani was replying unbeknownst to me, but I'll leave my post here for re-inforcement.

[VIL]

Hey, Phillip, I'm not that familiar with the differences between the spiral path and the straight path. I've read a couple of articles, here and there, but I was wondering what your take on it was or if you could direct me to a good website that discussed this in detail?

Thank you:



VIL