Give vs. Take

[Sparkle]

Hi kami

Thanks for that explanation.
Yes I get what you are saying, what I like to explore though is something that has arisen in some Insight Dialogue retreats with Gregory Kramer.

As the week of a retreat develops and the inner silence builds Gregory sometimes asks people to inquire into listening to one's own voice emerge out of silence. In this listening, for me at least, it is easy to see also the emerging of the thought as it tumbles into words spoken and heard. It is like it emerges out of an interface between silence and life.

As I see it, what happens after that is what you are talking about, identification with these thoughts, with these images and the memories and putting together of all our stories.

Whether a person is very unaware or whether they are a Buddha there is still this interface where ideas/thoughts emerge. As you know in Insight Dialogue there is this trusting of what emerges and there does not have to be anyone identifying in order for this to happen, it just happens.
It is like life creating itself in our lives all the time at this interface. What we "do" with it afterwards is another matter.
For me it is like an intelligence moving through us all the time, creating and emerging through each of us.
And yes I agree that identification is what creates the suffering but also with non-identification the emergence of this intelligence through us still goes on - call it God, love or whatever. To say there is nothing does not make sense in my experience but maybe I'm missing something, which is more than possible

[kami]

quote:Originally posted by Sparkle


Whether a person is very unaware or whether they are a Buddha there is still this interface where ideas/thoughts emerge. As you know in Insight Dialogue there is this trusting of what emerges and there does not have to be anyone identifying in order for this to happen, it just happens.
It is like life creating itself in our lives all the time at this interface. What we "do" with it afterwards is another matter.
For me it is like an intelligence moving through us all the time, creating and emerging through each of us.
And yes I agree that identification is what creates the suffering but also with non-identification the emergence of this intelligence through us still goes on - call it God, love or whatever. To say there is nothing does not make sense in my experience but maybe I'm missing something, which is more than possible

Ahhh, I see what you're saying dear Sparkle. Sorry for the tangential dissertation.

Yes, I would agree it is ridiculous to say there is nothing. And yes, there is the intelligence that makes bodies/thoughts/emotion possible, that "animates" all these constructs. That intelligence is what we are. Thoughts/bodies etc are downstream to this intelligence - they happen within this intelligence/now-ness. And thoughts happen spontaneously, arising from this spacious now-ness, receding back into it. When a thought arises in the now-ness, it is actually that now-ness occurring as the thought. That is how it is evolving here. Quite possible it will be totally false in a while!!

You are right that thoughts occur spontaneously whether it is a Buddha or not.. But it seems that a thought begets more thoughts when the original one gets associated with "me-ness". This is why Buddhas would have relatively very few thoughts compared to someone who is tightly identified with the "me". Where they come from is awareness. Why? No idea.

Does that make a bit more sense?

Much love.

[Sparkle]

Yes we're on the same page thanks kami.

[kami]

A friend shared this on FB yesterday that touches upon the bypassing discussed above.

Mooji, dealing with vasanas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz48uDe0hQw&sns=em

[kami]

Meditation sessions have evolved dramatically the last few weeks where I just sit, and let things flow. Let everything come up as it does without trying to manipulate anything, go back to breath/mantra etc. Sitting this way this morning, the issue of all the "difficult" relationships that somehow continue to be seen in the mind to be "difficult", or "unsavory", or "wish it weren't so", etc etc came up. As it arose, the realization dawned was subtle but significant - all along, it was Being pushing and prodding the "me" to wake up. Completely loving and yet completely impersonal. This was seen very clearly; the seeming sequence of events that led to taking up spiritual practices and then being pushed off the edge with inquiry.. I was asking the wrong question by asking "why", when the only question to ask is "how". In asking how, the answer is intuitively clear - exactly this way. When thus seen through this fresh perspective, all the adjectives of "difficult", "unsavory", etc fall away into "allowing". Perhaps this will need to be seen repeatedly, but that's ok.

It now feels that there was a subtle but definitive turn on this spiritual journey. All the practices "before" and "after". Surrender has become relational, as has inquiry. But neither are relational to inner silence but what is felt here to be the more subtle, "I Am-ness". Relational with respect to subjectivity, and not objective (felt/experienced) inner silence. Inner silence is of course the I Am-ness in the ultimate sense. But further upstream from inner silence, witness becomes Being, I am. Mysterious and yet so familiar.. Intimacy that cannot be described.

[pkj]

Kami

thanks for sharing.

"The incredible power of letting go.."

It says lot. Whenever there is an issue i am holding on to it. When someone reminds me to let it go it really helps.

Thanks

PKJ