Kechari Mudra

[Victor]

Alvin, I am pleased to see that a skeptic such as yourself has the faith to try something as committed as tongue snipping. It is very imressive!
 I would work on stretching your tongue at this point, I think that the word stretching is better than milking really. Just when you have a chance in privacy just dry your tongue out a bit so you can hold it with your fingers or a cloth and gently stretch it in different directions. Don't snip again until this one heals (generally a week or two). then when you feel that it has healed repeat the process. It may take some time before you get to kechari but yoga has never been for those who lack patience.
I salute you!

[Etherfish]

I wonder if Bob Cooley's discovery would make any difference here? He discovered that the only way to get a lasting stretch of a muscle is the muscle must be contracting as you are stretching it, and there must be full range of movement also. So to apply that here, the tongue would have to be resisting the whole time, then your fingers slowly pulling it from shortest to longest position, several reps. The harder the resistance the better. Haven't tried this on my tongue, but with other muscles it works.

[Alvin Chan]

Hi Etherfish,

It will not work in stretching the tongue, but will probably work in the milking stage.

What Bob Cooley wrote is (mainly) the contraction/relaxation (CR)method, though he may used different names. An effective way of stretching, of course. (But, btw, I don't think he is the first one to come up with that. I found a couple of books talking about this. But Bob Cooley seems to be a better advertiser.)

In the usual muscles, what we think we're stretching are the tendons which connect the muscles and bones (the "lever") together. But the length of the muscles is actually more crucial for flexibility. As our muscles get leaner or more relaxed, it becomes longer, and we become more flexible. That's why even in a single day, you may find your flexibility changes. That's because you tends to have tighter muscles sometimes, e.g. in the morning. So, what we're working on, is more the muscles than the tendon. If we are able to relax more the muscles we're stretching, we will find our flexibility improved much both immediately and in the long run. The CR method works well because it makes use of the information from stretching (usually consists of slight pain or discomfort in the muscles you're stretching), helps you build up awareness or that muscles (by feeling and then tightening them); and the "relax" part will then be more effective. Probably (this part is my guess) it also works by engaging the muscles actively, so that the rearrangement/repairing of muscles tissues is faster after the practice.

The difference here, for the tongue, is that the fiber (in the frenum) we want to "stretch" is NOT attached to the muscles of the tongue. So contracting the tongue against the stretch will not have the same effects here.

However, I think it's a nice idea to do it in milking, where we literally want the tongue muscles (rather than the fibers in the frenum) to be longer.

Alvin

[Shanti]

I was really scared to snip the frenum membrane. So I took the easy way out. I applied Anbesol to my frenum. Then when I snipped it, I felt nothing. I washed my mouth with mouthwash. Since it was numb, I did not feel the burn. Maybe because the mouthwash was an antiseptic, the snip healed in a day. Actually, the next day itself, I had no pain. Is this OK to do?

[Manipura]

Shanti - I tried the Anbesol too.  I didn't like it b'c of the taste and texture, and wasn't sure about the safety of it when cutting deep.  (It may be fine, but I didn't want to take any chances).  Someone here on the forum suggested clove powder, which I like very much.  Nice numbing and okay taste.  My snips heal very quickly too - by the next day they're almost completely healed over, but I've been waiting to cut again, rather than cutting every day, as ultimately I don't think it provided much progress.  Once a week or so is probably better.  That's what everyone has said all along, but I have to figure these things out on my own.  

[Alvin Chan]

hi meg and Shanti,

Healing in one day is relly quick. How much do you snip? Is the quick healing related to the use of Anbesol/Clove powerder?

Meg, in those days where you snip everyday, did you snip along the same edge?

It makes sense that snipping too much on one day do not help much. In the long run, we'll have to wait for the new fibers to come outward anyway. But I am thinking about snipping in different positions of greatest tension, by stretching the tongue sideway in stead of up and backward. The tautest position will be different then. Did anyone try this? And does it help?

Alvin

[Etherfish]

Alvin wrote:
"What Bob Cooley wrote is (mainly) the contraction/relaxation (CR)method, though he may used different names. An effective way of stretching, of course. (But, btw, I don't think he is the first one to come up with that. I found a couple of books talking about this. But Bob Cooley seems to be a better advertiser.) "

That doesn't sound the same as what's in my "Genius of Flexibility" book. Do you have an earlier book maybe? The book I have doesn't say contract and relax. It says contract and resist, then move through the range of motion with the resistance. Is this what the other books say?

The clove powder doesn't help healing; what it is for is numbing. Oil of clove also does that and may be easier to apply.

[Alvin Chan]

I have only glimpsed through Bob Cooley's book in a bookstore. The CR method is more well-known and that's what I found in other books. One of my yoga teachers (trained primarily as a ballet dancer before she turned into yoga) teaches BOTH of the methods here, depending on what postures are being done. But for stretching poses (as opposed to, e.g., the warriors) she always tell us to use the CR method.

Bob Cooley's method is a slight variation of the CR method. The "philosophy" behind is the similar. I am not sure if his method(removing the relaxing part and moving around with the tension?) is really better, but it's unlikely. I could see that his method may be better on "strengthening and increasing range of motions" achieved together, but for "increasing range of motions", CR is probably better.

So Bob Cooley's method is not bad. It's an efficient way of stretching and strengthening. But what he claimed about the other "physiological, spiritual, emotional and psychological concerns" is highly overstated. I think he simply copied much of it from Chinese medical knowledge, which may be rare in USA but is very common here in my country.

BTW, there are many such kind of things in recent years. They contained either something which does not work at all or which is a very rough copy from a higher source. Remember the "The Photoreading Whole Mind System"? When it first appeared, many people praised highly about this system. But only the truth will last for long. This system simply doesn't work. (well, at least it isn't better than what you've known already.) So it can't arouse our interests for very long.

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Unfortunately I am highly sensitive to clove, so I can't use it for numbing. What actually is "Anbesol"? Can't google it out.

[Manipura]

quote:Originally posted by Alvin Chan

hi meg and Shanti,

Healing in one day is relly quick. How much do you snip? Is the quick healing related to the use of Anbesol/Clove powerder?

Meg, in those days where you snip everyday, did you snip along the same edge?

It makes sense that snipping too much on one day do not help much. In the long run, we'll have to wait for the new fibers to come outward anyway. But I am thinking about snipping in different positions of greatest tension, by stretching the tongue sideway in stead of up and backward. The tautest position will be different then. Did anyone try this? And does it help?

Alvin

Hi Alvin - Anbesol is an oral pain reliever containing Benzocaine.  When I snipped every day, it was when I was in the stage that you're in now, where there was excess frenum that cut away very quickly.  I mistakenly thought that it was always going to be that easy.  When I got to the meatier portion (closer to the base of the tongue) I had to back off, and then experimented with the approach that David calls "tooled talavya kriya" .  (Do a search and read up on it - it's good).     Definitely always snip along the same edge.  There's no point in snipping at more than one spot, as is explained in the post on tooled talavya.  Once I started doing that, I could no longer snip every day, and there wasn't any point in it anyway.  But this is a bit presumptuous of me - I'm like a virgin giving advice on tantric sex.    Best to listen to the pros who are actually practicing kechari.

[Alvin Chan]

Hi meg, So you're reaching that terrible stage already, in just a few months...I hope I can stay away from David's method for as long as I could (and yet going quick. Am I asking for too much?). So which stage you're in now? And how much did you improved by snipping that quick?

[Manipura]

Hey Alvin - Word has it that in fact it IS okay to snip in several spots on the frenum.  Sorry for the misinformation, although it makes the most sense to me to stick to one cut.  Will someone plz correct me on this?  B'c I thought one cut was the way to go.  

Yes, you may well be asking for too much.  Your tongue will go into kechari when ready, and all you can do is help it along a little.  My tongue is to the back of my throat, but I can't seem to get it 'around the bend'.  How much did I gain by snipping so quickly?  Hard to say.  It got me to this stage faster, but now it's going very slowly, so perhaps there was no gain at all.  Slow and steady is probably the best method.

[david_obsidian]

Clipping in lots of different places is a valid approach.  I have done it.  A lot depends on what stage in the clipping you are at.  While the frenal membrane is still there ( that sharp edge) it might not be as useful --  while the frenal membrane is still there,  it might be better to clip again at the same spot in the one session.

But over time when the edge flattens out from clipping,  clipping in several spots is an approach.  If you do this,  there may be a certain amount of redundancy (wastage) in your clipping.  For example,  you may clip the same fiber twice in two places,  along the length of the frenum.  At the same time,  this wastage is not harmful.

One approach is to speckle the frenum surface with lots of small clips.  Another is to clip a series of points across the frenum;  this will ensure that there is no redundancy,  but it takes more skill and effort.

I hope that helps.

-D

[rat]

quote:Originally posted by meg

Hi Dave-rat - This is not an answer to your question, but I've been trying for some time to push my tongue back with my fingers, and I've been a frenum-snipping fool as well, but still no kechari.  I'm thinking, therefore, that your frenum may not need any cutting, or possibly only a small amount in order to get your tongue to stay in the nasal cavity by itself.  Lucky you.  And then once you're up there, you'll probably eventually want to go further up with your tongue, as there are more surprises further on up the passage, so I would imagine that at some point you're going to want to lengthen your tongue a bit.  If you're averse to cutting, you might try milking, or stretching the tongue.  There are many posts on this, if you're interested.

[rat]

Thanks meg

It did take several months for me to get my tongue in the nasal passage even with my fingers. I do think that all things take time. From what I have heard from other schools of yoga is that it can take years. I do know that a lot of importance is put on kechari. The first time it went up there it felt really intense. I actually felt voilated! It took a couple of times to get used to it. It was just the tip and it did not stay in. Now it is held in by he membrane for a while. It is just there but when I try to do some pranayams with it up there it pops out. I will keep it up and keep trying. When I try without using my fingers it is not even close. I will see what happens. Thanks for your response. How lucky we are for this online satsang.

Dave

[Etherfish]

I think you may be judging Bob Cooley too quickly.
His claims were originally just flexibility, then he noticed the other effects as a by-product.
It's not one of those flash-in-the-pan systems that die out quickly. I've noticed a big difference between the stretching I do three times a week with instructors from ballet and martial arts backgrounds, and his method.
Those don't have a lasting effect, but his does.
His system has been growing rapidly for 15 years, and he works with olympic athletes, sports teams and universities. Yes it does mix traditional Chinese medicine with Yoga, but that's another subject for over here:

http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=692

True, Chinese Medicine is not generally accepted as legitimate in the USA, but it's catching on.

Not that a longer muscle would do you any good for kechari though!