automatic yoga, kechari and kundalini

[Kirtanman]

quote:Originally posted by Philaboston

Hi Kirtanman and Kriyaban,

thank you both for your input! I didn't fully delve into your discussion, but I think the two can be complimentary, instead of contradictory. I'd seek both help from ayp forum, and from a person, whether ayper or a guru, if possible.

I haven't been trusting these inner-driven movements; and I've been feeling quiet and kind in daily life, till I got this vertigo, and the little bomb in my head. I am concerned with delayed effects. I have taken on dm, sbp, sambahvi, mulabandha, samyama and siddhasana in less than 7 months. And tough I feel great progress, almost a different person, I think I need to watch out for delayed effects, too.

I took off my siddhasana yesterday. And the automatic movements goes away, but I feel both my pranayama and dm now are a bit lackluster. And my daily life is fine, but I feel there's something lacking. But I do hope that the vertigo, dizziness will go away in a few days. I think sometimes it is indeed hard to correctly recognize what the symptoms are; and in these cases, we all need someone who's really experienced to help. But when there are different voices, it can be a bit confusing. I searched some other posts, and saw that vertigo can be a symptom of kundalini. There is another online resource which tells that automatic movements like what I experience can be kundalini.
Whether it is or not, I think I'll need to experiment by adjusting my practice and find out what exactly is the cause. And what should I do to reduce this vertigo.

Hi Phil,

Just to clarify - I'm saying automatic movements are kundalini. I'm also saying that they're a normal part of overall purification.

I had a bout of vertigo, too. Vertigo may or may not be kundalini. Mine was pretty ridiculous for a couple of days (my only mode of navigation was crawling diagonally while actively vomiting). This was years ago, and when I put the pedal to the medal in terms of adding practices, and had a business trip involving air travel (which can push vertigo over the edge).

I got some medication that zombie'd me out pretty good at the time; I think it was more just time and scaling back practices (to zero; my one mode of non-locomotion was sitting or laying still and actively not-vomiting. <-- anyone who's had serious vertigo understands "actively not-vomiting"! )

And yes, scaling back a little tends to "deaden" things a little.

Same as going to the gym and barely working a sore muscle; your mind says its not enough.

It is.

As Yogani says, this is a marathon and not a sprint.



Wholeheartedly,

Kirtanman

[Kriyaban]

I agree with Kirtanman on that the automatic movements are kundalini, especially with how much and what you have been practicing. that is ALOT to take in in that amount of time. as the kundalini purges the entire nadi system and everything else you will have symptoms of such. the vertigo is more important in my opinion as i think that is what should be addressed. i dont like the word kundalini syndrome or sickness that some term it to be as it is a natural process that happens and its different for everyone. i think its karmic, physical, emotional, mental and spiritual all wrapped up and depending on your state in each of these is what will determine exactly what you experience. but that is my opinion. because i have practiced many of the techniques on this site and am obviously practicing Kriya now i can say that i understand what you are talking about, but i can offer a different perspective as i am also a doctor of oriental medicine. so i understand from practice and from a qi/prana standpoint. LOL many times during the practices that we do we build up a variety of things in the body. one such thing that can cause this is too much Yang energy moving up to the head, another thing that can cause it is too much depletion of the Kidney energy which ties into the Yang rising up actually.  if you shoot me an email and explain in detail what you are experiencing and also what a bomb inside the head is i will give you a few ideas so as not to discuss anything too medical online. and it will not be a diagnosis of course as i dont work that way. i am old school if that isnt obvious and in my medicine i firmly believe that one must see the patient LOL but i can offer a few tools to use to see if it helps in your vertigo particularly. i personally wouldnt take any pharmaceuticals for it, not only will that not be of benefit as to curing it but they hinder our progress for the most part in our practices. the automatic and spontaneous movements sound straight up like kundalini and this will pass once things settle down. learn to enjoy that as once it goes away and isnt intense you will probably look back it with nostalgia. LOL feeling quiet and kind in daily life are good things, i find that after practice it is very difficult to even speak or want to simply because everything is so internalized. for me there isnt a desire to speak as it seems like it starts the vibrations again and i am back "into" the world if that makes sense. i enjoy it immensely.

if i confused you at all with my posts i apologize. i wont go into detail about my opinons regarding your situation from a Yogic aspect simply because i do not practice AYP but many of the practices are similiar and the ones i practiced before are exactly the same. but out of respect for the forum i will try to refrain from throwing my two cents in since my tradition is different, even though many things are quite similiar as i stated. LOL  but i can help from a Chinese Medicine viewpoint and it should at least relieve the dizziness and vertigo somewhat if not completely. personally none of my brother/sister disciples have issues like we have over here when practicing. LOL i dont know what it is other than 99% are all Bengali and surely that isnt it! i tell my brother disciple about the forums and kundalini sickness sites and problems and all he does is laugh hysterically, of course he is Bengali too, maybe its something in their blood[]  anyway, good luck, listen to those that are here to help and if i can at all just email me.

[Akasha]

Hi Kriyaban,

 

quote:I agree with Kirtanman on that the automatic movements are kundalini

I don't think there is any divergenece of views here whatsoever that the AM's are a manifestation of Kundalini  , if one is comfortable with that term. I cetainly am. Ecstatic kundalini,nadis,prana shakti,kundalini- it more or less al the same- the nadis getting cleaned and purfied,the energy body opening up.Agreement all round here i would say.

But based on experience certainly learned the hard way, for that there is no doubt, automatic movements are precisely the thing to be wary of of, iin terms of self-pacing and premature openings/awakenings.And it would just be wise to monitor that particular k/energy related phenomenon ,slowy is one way, and not to just ALWAYS simply go with them. This to me is a recipe for a crash. It happned to me. So be warned and practice wisely and safely. That is why my adivce is sometimes to temper the practices, so erring on the side of caution, if someone is having doubts about AM's and their effects and implications.If there are any doubts to me it really is an alarm bell. If the movments are gentle and mild  then probably nothing to be self-pace. But if they happen at will and more actively and agressive-ish without any conscious manipulation then....mmmm... wise just to tread on the careful side.The experienced practitioner may not be able to always anticipate negative reactions but should have learnt some useful navigation tips.Because things can get rough and stay that way for a LONG time too.With AYP if you've gpt that then you can remedy the situation  better and more quickly however.

Some times i feel i offer adivce here but i sense sometimes it is kinda of washed off,but hey people will find out for themself the mistake of charging ahead.It's a good way of learning but a HARD way.But soome powerful lessons are learnt that way.Alot of my posts should be some kind of warning to others.

Sometimes it really does'nt matter how many times you repeat something or privide hints or pointers, not that i am saying i am always right-no way, but some folk sometimes just are'nt interested in what other people say and will do whatever they are doing  or want to do anyway.We all have our own lives to lead after all. This is just a website forum. And i think it's hard even on web froum to really get to know and understand whhere folk are coming from. Th least one can do is repsect each other, their opinions and the yoga they practise. If there is any critique it is a respectful one and there is mutual understanding relating to that.Otherwise  it helps no one.

Of course ,just my 2 cents.

[amoux]

quote:Originally posted by Philaboston

AOther time it’s fine, the worst time is usually when I laid down or sit up. Do they sound like I understand signs of kundalini awakening, and/or purification, or indications of something wrong in my practice?  

Hi Philaboston

It might be worth getting the dizziness checked by your medical practitioner.  From your description, particularly the worsening when you lie down or stand up, it reminds me of a bout of labrynthitis I had some years ago.

Much love

[Kriyaban]

"Yes, a neat trick indeed; one so basic and dimly remembered, it took me a minute to realize what you were talking about."

"Leaving the body isn't required; "liberated in this life" means with, and via, a body-mind."

"And a few of us have either managed it, or are very close, depending upon where the lines are drawn"

"Transcendence is nothing (literally) .... it's just our orientation to reality, the end of fear, suffering and the illusion of mortality, liberation from samsara, and the cycles of birth and death; all that kind of stuff."

I would like to go into detail about some of these statments perhaps on another thread. As when i spoke earlier i was speaking very basic, however the techniques are not and would like to clarify as your and my definition of liberation must be entirely differnt although you mentioned a couple things that would make it the same.

 I am curious as to your thoughts as merging the prana-air from the Ida and Pingala into the Sushumna and bringing that stilled air to the Ajna or Sahasrara is no small feat and is something not basic in any system. This means that the three knots are untied, the breathless state or Kevala-Kumbhaka is achieved thru recaka and puraka and its continual practice among many other things. Then after many more things i wont go into on this thread are completed, are you even close to being able to attain liberation. I am talking about 100% cessation of dynamic prana, the techniques that go along with it etc. not basic enlightenment, 5 or even 10 yrs of practice would be a sprint LOL it takes longer than that, as you said that Yogani says, its a marathon. 5 or 10yrs is a drop in the bucket regardless of what you practice.

[Kirtanman]

I'm cool with another thread; "after you" (go ahead and start it; I'll chime in).



Other Systems is probably best.

I wasn't meaning to diminish anyone else's definition of enlightenment or the way there, by the way.

It's just that all the form-oriented practices seem less and less important over time, as well as from the perspective of timeless awareness (meaning: it's not *about* the practices; it's about what is revealed via the practices, whatever they may or may not be.)

And I was also respectfully suggesting that it may be possible that some of the things you've been taught are essential may not actually be essential for everyone.

This is simply true of any tradition which says you "must" do this or that.

Did Ramana Maharshi do all the things you've been taught are necessary? How about Nisargadatta? How about enlightened Taoists or Buddhists or Christians or Sufis or Alchemists or Kabbalists?

Kriya Yoga is a highly effective system, but it's not the only one, by far, as I'm pretty sure you know (even Yogananda didn't opine that only Kriyabans became enlightened).

Enlightenment isn't evaluated by what the body-mind can do; true enlightenment isn't evaluated at all.

The actuality of the Self/True-Nature is known in ongoing experience, or it's not, period-full-stop.



Even enlightenment is a relative term.

There's living in-from-as the knowing of true nature, or there's dreaming of evaluation and limitation within the greater scope of reality.

Enlightenment, if it's an applicable term at all, is applicable to the cessation of the dream, and the attendant revelation of Self/True Nature.

All practices are supports; no one specific practice, or even series of them, are essential to enlightenment, and no systems' practices and benchmarks are an accurate measuring stick for all.

(Even the term Maya comes from the Sanskrit root "Maa" - "to measure"; they don't just make this stuff up, ya know. )

To say that enlightenment requires such and such is like trying to discuss the third dimension from the perspective of the second, or more accurately, it's like trying to discuss the waking state from the perspective of the dreaming state ... "problematic at best".

Liberation is awareness of our true nature as wholeness, in ongoing experience.

Living-Knowing/Awareness in ongoing experience is the natural state; the result of the cessation of ego and its erroneous evaluations (Yoga is the cessation of mind-disturbances; Yogash Chitta-vrtti-nirodhah, as Yoga Sturas 1.2 says).

And so, it's like I'm saying "San Francisco is great!"

And it's like you're responding, "But you don't understand; you have to do such and such and then thus and such, or you can't be in San Francisco!"

And it's like I'm shrugging and saying "Okay", as I enjoy the view of the Bay, as I ride a cable car from Union Square down toward Fisherman's Wharf.



Enlightenment is everywhere; enlightenment is all there is; none of us has it more than anyone else; it's life itself, awareness itself; animating all.

Some of us are just conscious of the full-range of awareness-consciousness (aka the Self, enlightenment, whatever).

Others of us aren't conscious of it, yet. We all will be, though; it's reality; it's actually pretty hard to miss.

Just realize that what you're looking for is what you're actually looking with, and you're most of the way t/here, now.

Awareness is a single field.

Tattvam Asi.

You Are That.

I Am That.

We All Am That.

And That's That.