Enlightenment Milestones

[Etherfish]

>Perhaps in some cases there is a near-death type of phenomena where the
>spirit or soul (whatever one prefers) withdraws from the body and there is
 >a complete release of all physical tension, knots and blockages (this
>happens when people or animals die).

The problem with that theory is that karma is held in the nervous system, not just in the physical body but in etherial bodies. So such an occurence would require divine intervention to release all karma at once. This is possible, but highly unlikely, unless the person was fairly close to that point by himself. Divine intervention will often remove large blocks of karma for people with a lot of bhakti and regular practice, but not everything. It is up to the individual to remove karma by working in the world and practicing and realizing the truth along the way.
The idea is to retain autonomy while traveling this path.
Unfortunately, karma is not released by dying or being born (I wish!).
I think your idea is partly right though, as people who have near death experiences are often completely changed in their outlook.

[weaver]

Hello,
Interesting to read all your thoughts about this.
I think a near-death experience can be such a profound experience, if you see the light and angels etc., that it can change your whole outlook on life and break down the old habit patterns of thinking and preferences in life. And it may give profound new insights about life. The experience could also possibly create infusions of energy in the nervous system which could cause certain openings. But we know that openings and energy experiences are just small steps along the road to enlightenment. Just my thoughts on the subject.

[yogani99]

Hi All:

Anthem, I agree that near death experience (NDE) can have a profound spiritual effect -- but it is rarely the final step -- there is no such thing as a final step really, only ever higher degrees of divine outpouring and illumination. Interestingly, there have been a few who have written in here over the past couple of years looking for practices to expand on (or manage) what their NDE gave them. Not that we should run off and have a NDE.

John Wilder was into pressing the envelope. And he did, in fact, have a NDE that was a confirmation and transition point in his work.

Lavazza, I agree about sages in isolation affecting everyone, but I think it is often over-rated. We can't know for sure about such claims, can we? As it says in the Bible, "By their fruits ye shall know them." Sages who are active in the world have a special role, because they empower the people to act for their own spiritual benefit instead of relying on anonymous invisible forces, which can breed superstition. It is the cultivation of divine presence (pure bliss consciousness) that counts. After that, to each their own. Those who seek to enable people everywhere to reveal it directly in themselves via practical means are meeting the challenge where it lies. My hat is off to Tolle and all who are giving it a go. It is the most important work on the planet.

The guru is in you.

[Anthem]

quote:The problem with that theory is that karma is held in the nervous system, not just in the physical body but in etherial bodies. So such an occurence would require divine intervention to release all karma at once. This is possible, but highly unlikely, unless the person was fairly close to that point by himself. Divine intervention will often remove large blocks of karma for people with a lot of bhakti and regular practice, but not everything. It is up to the individual to remove karma by working in the world and practicing and realizing the truth along the way.

Hi Ether,

Again, highly theoretical, but I would suggest karma is all a derivative of delusional perspective of the world and ourselves. When the NDE occurs and the true nature of ourselves/ the universe is revealed to oneself, many of these delusions that precipitate the karma acting out are seen through and therefore not acted out any longer.

In addition, like with children, I believe our physical bodies start out as a clean slate and as karma is acted out from held over delusions in the ethereal body, these blocks in the form of pain and tension from our actions store in the physical body compromising the flow of energy and the optimal functioning of the nervous system. In other words, it takes time for the physical body to reflect the ethereal body as the karma acts out in the world and comes back to be stored in the body as pain and suffering caused from a person's actions. To me, this is often seen in some people as they age and become more blocked up and more delusional from repeatedly acting out their karmic delusions. Other people who are inclined to learn from their delusional behavior, seem to suffer less and not more as they get older.

[riptiz]

Hi,
I have been taught and have been told by one who's mother this happended to.Near death experiences can often awaken siddhis. I worked 2 yrs ago with a young man who's mother had a NDE and is now clairvoyant.I think it spooked her husband as they have since parted.
Yogani of course sages who work in the open and give to all are bound to have a greater impact, but they can and do i belive work towards helping in other ways.I recently obtained a copy of Guruji's Divine Sound and have to say it has the potential to change the world in ways we could never imagine.Due to our better systems of communication I am sure it will be widespread in a few years much like your books.The energy in the DS is amazing and the effects are something else.I had some Tai Chi friends listen to it yesterday and they were blown away with it.One commented that he didn't 'want to return'.Although they have practiced Tai Chi for a number of years it was something they had never experienced before and were completely taken aback.I also handed them my Asan that has been charged by guruji when I was in India and one of them couldn't speak as the energy took his breath away.
L&L
Dave

'the mind can see further than the eyes'

[Lavazza]

"Lavazza, I agree about sages in isolation affecting everyone, but I think it is often over-rated. We can't know for sure about such claims, can we?"

Well I certainly do not know, but this was a very advanced guy and he was very generous in sharing and he would not critisize other sages for not sharing. So in his my mind he knew for sure that these sages were already helping people.

[yogani99]

quote:Originally posted by Lavazza
Well I certainly do not know, but this was a very advanced guy and he was very generous in sharing and he would not critisize other sages for not sharing. So in his my mind he knew for sure that these sages were already helping people.

Hi Lavazza:

In the old days, they used to call it the "Great White Brotherhood" -- Those anonymous sages meditating behind the scenes, uplifting all of humankind which was in no position to do it for itself. I am sure there must be a "Great White Sisterhood too." My hat is off to all of them.

At least in part thanks to them, we now have thousands teaching in the open, and thousands more are joining in each year. It is a time for stillness in action...  

The guru is in you.

[david_obsidian]

quote:Originally posted by robertjames

Hi A:

Or maybe Tolle is a philosopher charlatan. I'm not saying he is, just maybe.I read the Power Of Now and it just didn't click for me.

We are one

Guy

Hello Guy,

well,  nothing is entirely black and white.  My feeling is that he went through some pretty strong spiritual development.  Is he perfect?  No.  There may be a touch of charlatanry there,  some self-mythologization,  some very woo-woo stuff presented as fact (particularly about women's menstrual cycle) and so on,  but that's par for the course right now,  and probably will be for a long time,  until there are far more enlightened people.

[Added later:  maybe I am being unfair to Eckhart Tolle associating him with self-mythologization -- see below ]

I say unto ye,  some of the belauded 'greats' of the last century who brought Yoga to the West,  had more of charlatanry about them than we care to know.  

Maybe self-mytholigization is just part of the showmanship of the whole teaching business.  It has it's dark side,  but it has its bright side too.  From one point of view,  it is part of PR ( Public Relations), helpful maybe to get a message going.

While enlightenment is rare,  it will probably present to us in a form which is somewhat muddled maybe,  inflated a bit,  magicalized a bit,  with a bit of woo-woo here and there -- in a word,  with a little charlatanry.  Often people have something of charlatanry about them without knowing it -- the very traditions carry it with them to an extent.

If we can see it,  it's good that we see it,  and our growing ability to see it and criticise it is a positive thing,  but then we shouldn't reject the message or the teacher in entirety.  We have to take the best from them just as we do from each other.

Surely the last word on charlatanry should come from the great Babaji,  900-year-old saint and male hair-model who has materialized castles in the Himalayas,  'Be like the wise ant who seizes the sugar and leaves the sand alone'.  

(If you didn't get the irony,  Happy are Ye!    )

[Anthem]

quote:Or maybe Tolle is a philosopher charlatan. I'm not saying he is, just maybe.I read the Power Of Now and it just didn't click for me.
We are one

Guy

Hi Guy/ David,

I just finished reading Tolle, "The Power of Now" and am just starting now his second book. While I really enjoyed the bookand found it incredibly insightful and uplifting, I did have the impression that at the time of writing his first book, that his heart chakra was not fully open and that he lacked a little compassion for the "ego driven masses". Other than that I felt the book contained a great many truths and wisdom and provided me with an acceleration down the witnessing path.

I didn't however get the impression that he was guilty of any "self-mytholization" or "charlantry" and wondered what gave you both these impressions?

[tantien]

Hi David:

I love the sugar/sand metaphor,also, what the hell is a male hair model?

Hi Riptiz:

Where can one obtain a copy of Guruji's Divine Sound?

Guy

[david_obsidian]

Hi Anthem,

I'd be happy to try to answer that,  regarding the self-mythologization.  I wouldn't have gotten the impression of charlatanry per se directly,  so I'll leave that one to Guy.

Let me emphasize firstly that I think 'The Power of Now' is a great book and a great service.  I agree with everything you said about it.

Let me emphasize secondly that I am saying that self-mythologization is 'par for the course' and probably quite unconscious.  So I don't by any means single out Eckhart Tolle for it.  In fact,  if anything he stands out among famous spiritual teachers as being low in self-mythologization --- very low.  

Which is why,  in a way,  it might be particularly unfair in my post that self-mythologization is mentioned in connection with Eckhart Tolle.

OK,  let me explain what I mean by self-mythologization and how it seems to be extremely common among spiritual teachers:  self-mythologization among spiritual teachers manifests in the quality of the role in which they inject themselves.  This role is prepared for them by the myths of the past,  by the great guru/saviour/messiah myths,  maybe even by our 'archetypes',  and by their tendencies.

I believe they become a little inflated from this role and stop speaking person-to-person in a totally honest,  open and truthful way.  They don't tend to say 'I don't know' or 'I'm wondering',  because that would detract from the myth they are building around themselves.

They mythologize their own progress and path.  They often mythologize it in a way that makes it look as if their own particular progress was independent,  and that it was not helped by other people and things.  Or,  to the extent that they were helped by others,  the role of the others is subsidiary,  and lower-status than their own.  They assume a posture as if they are an independent (or final) point of light,  an isolated genius,  a new Source.  They are the Lone Hero.

Has this happened with Tolle?  I think a little,  yes.  [ Not sure I am being fair to Tolle here -- haven't given him benefit of doubt ] I alluded to it in an earlier post.  I believe he was helped significantly by a number of teachers and paths (including Zen) **after** his partial enlightenment experience.  But there is very little credit given to these paths and teachers,  in fact,  they are downplayed.  He doesn't say something like 'Some of my great teachers and buddies in zen and other traditions helped me to find more securely what their great masters enjoy' -- no,  that wouldn't be Lone Hero -- instead he said something very Lone Hero like 'he realized that they were all looking for what he already had'.  

This thing may play in with your own observation that his heart chakra is not 'fully opened'.   A person whose heart chakra is fully opened is not inclined to go for Lone Hero and is much less susceptible to falling into an inflated role;  they will tend to speak person to person in a totally honest way,  which manifests their vulnerability and interdependence.  Any role activity that draws you out of that relationship of interdependence,  is a role that draws you only because 'the heart' is partially lost or not properly grown.  Lone Hero only arises when 'the heart' is not fully developed and healthy.

I could be wrong about Tolle in particular (though I think then that the 'wise ant' could find something useful in what I said about spiritual teachers as a group).  Regarding Tolle in particular, this is just a set of impressions,  possibly even just a forumite shooting his mouth off unfairly, not the result of a deep study.  But my own gut feeling is that there is indeed some truth in it.

Let me know what you think.  If you think I've gotten it totally wrong about Tolle,  don't spare me.

Best regards,

-David

[david_obsidian]

Guy asked:
Hi David:
I love the sugar/sand metaphor,also, what the hell is a male hair model?

I'm being very naughty.  A male hair model is simply a male model valued largely for his hair.

According to Parahamsa Yogananda,   our nine-hundred-year-old Babaji presents in the body of a beautiful youth,  whose long,  lustrous hair is copper-colored.  Babaji would surely be the envy of the elven city of Rivendell --- Legolas move over --- if Rivendell wasn't just  made up by someone.

I'll openly admit that maybe I'm just jealous.   I'm OK with the fact that Babaji can materialize castles and I can't  -- but what really kills me is that if I wear my own hair longer than six inches,  I get split ends.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by david_obsidian

[purple].


I'll openly admit that maybe I'm just jealous.   I'm OK with the fact that babaji can materialize castles and I can't  -- but what really kills me is that if I wear my own hair longer than six inches,  I get split ends.

That's alright David If I grow mine longer than half an inch it falls out

RICHARD

[snake]

This thing about Babaji seems weird in that PY seemed so sincere in when I have heard him speak and read some of his lectures yet he seems to have been on LSD some of the time.

chris

[david_obsidian]

Jeez,  Chris,  hold on a minute here,  you aren't suggesting that those stories about Babaji aren't true are you?