quote:
Originally posted by emc
Can you imagine someone coming and telling you "no, no, what you call REALITY now, is not the REAL at all!" Now, that's what I mean by being really, really freaked.
What if what you now sense as REAL and is absolutely sure is REAL is just another illusion, just as fake as you now see your personal identity was? That's where I ended up until Adyashanti saved me.
I'm still not quite "getting" what you're saying here .... and I'd genuinely like to understand what you're saying.
I'm not sure I understand .... but it sounds like you're saying:
You could check off every item on your checklist ... but then, someone (your own mind, or someone else ... I'm not sure if you've clarified which) ... somehow convinced your mind that the "realized" reality *could* be as fake as the "ego-story" reality ... and your mind freaked out, thinking "Oh My God, what if that's true?!"
And I'm not sure exactly what the ramifications were for you, other than it was presumably quite awful to experience ... with the general sense being (guessing here) ... "how can I ever actually know what's real??"
This was compounded by the fact that you believed that enlightenment/realization was "one way" ... and so, if you could "fall back out of it" .... which you did ..... that was some pretty strong evidence that whoever convinced you of the possible unreality of both conditions ("enlightened" and "unenlightened", or "realized" and "unrealized", or whatever you want to call it ..... might be right.
However, something in "End Of Your World" (the book by Adyashanti) .... possibly just the general teaching that "phasing in and out of" realization/experience of self can and does happen .... helped you to believe you're *not* stuck in an ever-cycling unreality, after all ... and you were (your phrasing) restored to sanity.
Does that sound about right?
If so, I'd say that while on one level there may have been zero self-reference, there wasn't zero mind-reference .... which would have made all the difference, it seems.
My dissolution of mind (my term; who knows if it's "actually that"?) just *happened* ... it wasn't volitional.
For me, it was like this:
Inner silence became samadhi.
Samadhi became thoughtless awareness in daily life.
Thoughtless awareness in daily life (including non-attachment to thoughts; I've never had "no thinking at all").
I developed the habit of "maintaining" thoughtless awareness, which took effort at first, and got easier and easier over time (I started the practice in early 2008, if I recall correctly).
I'd still cycle out of it, though ... and every so often, still experience a fair amount of stress, ego and/or "distressful thinking".
Even knowing it wasn't me (I'm not who I think I am) ... it seemed to be a systemic cycling, regardless.
I even had a couple of major "emotional meltdown" kind of experiences ... which were purification, yes .... but also caused, aided and abetted ... by those evil twins ... memory and imagination (the last one of these was maybe 7 or 8 months ago, and lasted for a few hours, and "really intensely" for far less than than).
Then, I developed two habits, which helped the rest of the "clean-up", so to speak:
1.
Sustaining AwarenessThese body-minds (in "modern culture") are SO conditioned to *think* ... and every system teaches that "thoughtless awareness"
is divine consciousness ... and that the only difference between the enlightened and the unenlightened, is that the enlightened live from effortless thoughtless awareness ... while the unenlightened live in the dream of conditioned thinking.
And so, I noticed even in samadhi, thoughts still arose ... and while they weren't attached to ... they were still often paid attention to.
And so, I guess I did kind of "inverted samyama" ... and learned dharana (focusing awareness, not letting it wander) and dhyana (sustaining awareness) *from* samadhi (the eight limbs of yoga aren't in "any order" ... but I always kind of thought of them that way).
2. Using Suffering as a Reminder to Return to AwarenessIt was like:
Stress? Return to awareness.
Anxiety? Return to awareness.
Fear? Return to awareness.
Between these two practices ... awareness became both easier and easier .... and more natural and more natural.
And ... I experienced that it's impossible to suffer without thinking .... and it's impossible to suffer, while aware; the two are mutually exclusive.
So *then* ... I was *really* motivated to be done with this "suffering and delusion crap" .... but the cycling continued ... and I kept practicing (all practices; meditation, spinal breathing, samyama ... and including these two).
And ... I finally had the experience of the "sand running out of the hourglass" ... I'm sure you all know how that looks ...... it's slow, it's slow ... it speeds up .... and then, right near the end ... it really speeds up ... and before you know it ........ ahhh ..... no more sand!!
And so .... now .... all I can tell you (emc) ... is there's not even the ability to be concerned about whether this (current condition) is "it", or not.
*Could* it be temporary?
Sure; anything's possible.
Does it feel temporary?
It doesn't feel "anything", really; there's truly no comparison or referencing.
It's like: before yoga, all through my life ... my sense of "me" was a given ... I didn't question who "I" was ... I just lived my life... sometimes happy, sometimes unhappy; never completely secure (it was that whole "dream of partiality thing").
Now, when you say "how do you know it's permanent?"
Feels the same way that "How do you know you're you?" would have sounded a few years back .... it just kind of doesn't compute.
I just got (how to possibly express it) .... this ... experiencing now ... does not feel like a state.
It's like: "Is
what permanent? What are you talking about?", in terms of the "vibe" of it .... there's no something or someone to be permanent or not permanent .... and I'm not saying this is an "and so, there's NO ego ...", etc. etc. .... I'm just trying to describe how it feels ...... and the short answer is: "it doesn't".
Previous realization experiences did feel like a state on some level .... "I'm feeling like {x,y,z}" .... "finally at peace", "clear awareness", "infinite", blah, blah, blah.
Now ... none of that; just .... openness, emptiness.
Before ... what I (fairly recently, out of my whole life) learned was a smokescreen of thinking and conditioned memory .... but what *felt* like me for my whole life .... shifted into "Ah, I'm awareness!!" ... and there was referencing it, noticing it ... and so, either "Kirtanman the guy" or "Kirtanman the infinite awareness" was what was living any given moment.
Now, it's like "emptiness is living this" ... whatever the experience is ... but the emptiness is a (subtle yet infinite) "little step back" from *all* experiencing.
It's not about the quality, or the content of the experience ... feeling like a person, feeling like infinite awareness ... emptiness experiences both, but is not affected or disturbed by any experience ... I am, in a sense ... the very experiencing of the experiences ... but am also independent of them.
It really is almost impossible to describe ... it's like: instead of a "someone" ... or even "thinking about" things .... there's just space.
Life is actually much more normal than one might (literally) think, considering that; however ... the immersion in living ... without all that energy tied up and looping in reflective self reference ..... life is .... good; really good.
And suffering only happens when something untrue is believed in.
And I experience this as very, very good news ... and even better reality .... and happily intend that we all come to the experiencing of this.
Perhaps there's another point on the list:
quote:
Originally posted by emc
9) Being so absorbed in one's own BEING THAT, and wish to communicate THAT, that there is very little listening happening. Often accompanied by a sense that nobody else, particularly not those obviously still influenced by the gravity of mind, can possibly KNOW what it's like to be realized. (That's when the newly realized person often goes back to speak about # 3.)
I'm not quite sure I "get" this one; again, I'd like to.
Speaking for myself (and not because I think you "mean" me) ... there's no particular sense of needing to talk about this ... surprisingly the opposite, based on what mind might have expected.
90%+ of all referencing here (at AYP), about any condition I'm in ... has been because of dialog that has been in response to questions and comments (not yours, emc ... I'm referring to those that begin with "Kirtanman, you ....", and similar phrasing).
I started saying "enlightenment is real" ... and "inviting" ... before I ever really referenced anything about "what happened here" ... and nobody ever said anything.
As soon as I basically included "I" and "enlightened" in the same sentence (even with all the caveats) ... there were all these questions and comments.
The answering has happened ... and the extensive answering feels about finished ("answering" is fine; I do my best; "endlessly repeating" ... not so much.
)
And again .... not with respect to anything you've said, emc ... I'm mostly talking about the Wayne Wirs thread, when I say this.
Good learning experience for us all, hopefully.
quote:
Originally posted by emc
I have discovered that Facebook is a great arena for these newly realized persons to just flow over and splash what's left of their ego structures all over the place. The internet gives great opportunities (to help or teach)!
I presume they have an app for that??
(They do for everything else ....!!
)
Seriously though: I've never thought in terms of people who are "newly realized" "splashing ego structures" around on Facebook (or anywhere else, for that matter) ... I'm not on Facebook a lot ... but I experience it more as "a way to keep in touch with family", mostly.
quote:
Originally posted by emc
And as a last word - None of this is wrong or "shouldn't be" the way it is! It is what it is. We are all on the journey and we learn from eachother all the time. We have had numerous discussions on this forum about realized teachers and gurus - whether they have their ego's left or not, if it's possible to judge or not etc etc... and it really doesn't matter, does it?
I absolute agree with this.
This is the AYP Support Forum ... not the AYP Let's See If We Can Judge Who's Enlightened or Not Forum.
quote:
Originally posted by emc
My point with these posts is that I'm certain we realize deeper and deeper, and that we are wise to continue to inquire even though we think we are without any type of self-reference.
I agree ...
if there's thinking/self-reference in the first place ... and especially if there's suffering.
"Blind spots = bad".
However, it's certainly not ideal to "manufacture" thinking or self-reference, if it isn't arising in the first place.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
quote:
Originally posted by emc
We are prone to have blind spots! And if we are truly curious about our blind spots, we ought to make sure we listen to our daily mirrors around us if we are interested in continuously discovering how egostructures work in the body-mind system. As the realizations go deeper, so does the ego structures advance!
Well, yes ... per my two "awareness practices" mentioned above .... suffering is a signal to inquire.
quote:
Originally posted by emc
I even think Adyashanti mentions that the journey really begins AFTER realization! That's when the ego starts working at it's best!
Well, it can; a lot of times, it's legacy conditioning/purification .... but we've all seen "spiritual egos" at work, for sure.
And I take "realization" in the same way Adyashanti does:
Initial experience of self/emptiness/union ... regardless of duration.
I had minor glimpses of this a few times ... and then the first "biggie" in mid-2007; I'd call that "Realization" .... and yes, ego was a big part of it, even though ego was sure it wasn't.
Basically, the experience of Self was real ... but ego immediately "locked down" around the experience, evaluating ... determining the ramifications ... considering Sanskrit names .... you know ... "the usual" .....
What I'm referring to in current experience is what seems to happen *after* that realization cycle completes (the back-and-forth, up-and-down, etc.).
And that's not said as "realizeder-than-thou", to anyone, in any way ..... it's trying to explain, for the accurate map we're all mutually creating, here.
Those experiences were all about a "something" that happened.
Currently, it's the result of an "absence of something" ... including the thought and ego-structures which vacillated between a position of tyranny and credibility.
Now, reliance on them and belief in them is simply gone.
Am I saying "there are no ego structures here" ---- no; I'm saying "empty awareness is not itself an ego structure, and the ongoing experience is of empty awareness".
The "me-sense" (as in "I need to augment dinner .... with more dinner ... and hey, I like this song! .... and what-not) .... are here .... but they go with the body-mind; they happen ..... but identity is not derived from them, and they're not the arbiter of quality of experience, or the real or unreal, in any way.
Whatever happened a few weeks back ... the thoughts and feelings related to ego-mind just don't arise like they used to.
However, it's not like they've been replaced with something more "enlightened" ..... they basically just weren't replaced; there's space where they used to be; that's all.
As in: there's really no *evaluation* of myself as realized or enlightened .... it's more that it seemed to be a reasonable description, especially per AYP (as in: I don't think Yogani really says anything different about enlightenment that I do.)
For some strange reason, I had a sense:
Hey, if I let other people know it's possible .... people will feel like:
"Awesome ... so AYP *does* work; I *can* get enlightened!" (<-- Or, more accurately ... get past *all* the crazy me-stories, including the enlightenment-related ones ....) .... but ... as some may have noticed .... the general response .... or, at least the more vocal ones ... have not been like that (((shrug))).
I really just am here to help, if possible .... not in a "big deal" way; just in a "like always" way.
quote:
Originally posted by emc
Even Yogani has people checking his books so mind junk will be taken away before publishing. That's a wise attitude to me!
My guess would have been "typos" ("will be taken away before publishing")
- "who knew?" (i.e. I didn't know Yogani had said this ... but not a bad practice, either way, I suppose).
Wow.
I wonder ....
.... could there be ... mind junk ... in *my* writing??
**HM** ......!!
And again: thanks, emc ... I really do enjoy your comments and your insights ... and some of these in your last post are major ... and potentially very useful for a lot of AYPers and readers of this forum.
And, I hope you don't mind a bit of flippancy in my humor, at times ... it's just in fun ... and based on your own humor, the presumption is that you'll get where I'm coming from ... which is always warm-heartedly, even when in "joking mode".
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman