Author Topic: How many people have reached enlightment with AYP?  (Read 4394 times)

svetamoscow

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How many people have reached enlightment with AYP?
« on: June 16, 2014, 05:45:31 AM »
I was wondering how many people have reached enlightment with the help of AYP? Although probably they have just finished off what they worked on hard for many lifetimes, still it will be very interesting to read details about the final steps in the journey.[3]

BillinL.A.

  • Posts: 243
How many people have reached enlightment with AYP?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2014, 06:07:21 AM »
Hi Svetamoscow, welcome to the forum! [:D]

Here's Yogani's answer to your question four years ago:

http://www.aypsite.com/plus/426.html

In Lesson 390 he states:

The statement "I am enlightened" is an obstruction on the path. It was covered as one of the half dozen pitfalls of the mind in Lesson 329 "the illusion of attainment, or of having arrived."

...Svetamoscow, so don't be surprised if the enlightened ones here don't admit to it.  Plenty of Divine Love expressed here in the forum's banter thouigh and it helps me tons.

Take care!

svetamoscow

  • Posts: 16
How many people have reached enlightment with AYP?
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2014, 10:29:40 PM »
he doesn't really answer the question, the closest he gets is that "discussions about "the attainment" of others are largely a distraction". well, largely, but not always, i think normal people can also talk about important things without turning it into an obsession. the fact that such talks can confuse some people does not make them tabu for all... the confused will always find something or another to confuse them anyway!

as far as The statement "I am enlightened" is an obstruction on the path, that could be, but not for those who have already passed the stage, as he calls it, the ripened fruit falls off the tree. such a fruit will not lift from the ground back to the tree just because somebody else came to know about it!

the gurus in india use this type of excuses to avoid the topic altogether simply because they are far from kaivalya themselves and they know it very well. I hope to meet here more open minded individuals because the time of the "all divine indian" gurus is gradually getting over and time has come that people simply help each other on the path and are allowed to discussing topics previously considered tabu.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 03:11:41 AM by svetamoscow »

jonesboy

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How many people have reached enlightment with AYP?
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2014, 10:41:15 AM »
What is enlightenment is a fair question. Is it the witness state? Some say yes some say yeah maybe stage 1. Many here have reached that I assure you but they would not say they have arrived. There is always more it never ends.

Bill is right. The thought is of the mind. It is ego.  Don't be surprised if it is not answered with a lot of reply's. Now talk about the different stages and the experience of said stages is a different  matter.

Do you see the difference?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 02:29:50 PM by jonesboy »

svetamoscow

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How many people have reached enlightment with AYP?
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2014, 10:32:51 PM »
hi, not sure the difference between what and what. your post is not very clear to me.

I am not even asking about how many people have reached various stages, just in general I was wondering how many people within AYP have reached the ripening point of graduating from the material sphere in the way I saw it defined in the main lessons. what is the point of taking about stages if people are not willing to answer my question even in general?

Ayiram

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How many people have reached enlightment with AYP?
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2014, 11:18:07 PM »
hi svetamoscow,

as I see it, Yogani DID answer your question in the lesson 426 that BillinL.A. recommended, but if you don´t want to see it, then nobody can convince you otherwise.

ultimately, even if there were billions enlightened ones out there thanks to AYP, this doesn´t mean AYP will work for you as well.

many of us are here (including myself) coz we :
 
1. felt drawn to it through Yogani´s writings
2. we are doing the practice and can verify its efficiency experientially.

All the best in finding your way!
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 11:25:47 PM by Ayiram »

svetamoscow

  • Posts: 16
How many people have reached enlightment with AYP?
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2014, 11:41:10 PM »
hi, what is the actual answer that i did not see? it seemed related to the topic in general, but not to my question in particular. the rest you say is very true of course.

one thing is interesting to observe though, how upon asking this question  people immediately try to switch the question to something else instead of going straight to the point. i think the reason for this reaction is this tendency coming from india (that i mentioned above), but it could be something else... maybe it will transpire from other answers here, hopefully.

and no, i am not asking with challenging attitude about AYP, NOT AT ALL. maybe this will be a better formulation of the question HOW MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE VISITING THE AYP FORUMS HAVE REACHED ENLIGHTENMENT?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 12:57:40 AM by svetamoscow »

yogani

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How many people have reached enlightment with AYP?
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2014, 12:57:25 AM »
Hi svetamoscow:

No one can answer your question for sure. Everyone has their own opinion about what enlightenment is, and who may or may not have reached it, whatever it is seen to be. So there is no exact answer to your question.

What we can say with confidence is that many are finding steady improvement in the quality of their life with deep meditation and other yoga practices. It has been documented here and elsewhere many times over the years.

Is it perfect? No. But something is happening. If we can't say exactly what enlightenment is or who has it, we can say for sure that many are moving toward something more in life.

As for pinning any single person down on what their enlightenment status is, it is rather a personal question, and the person may not know the answer themselves. If they think they know, they could be projecting something inaccurate that could distract and mislead themselves and others. It happens all the time, sometimes with terrible consequences, and that is why the caution is there about making proclamations of enlightenment, or trusting them. It is not a taboo (anyone can claim whatever they want), just a suggestion to help avoid unnecessary confusion. A practitioner (even an advanced one) could much more easily tell you how much money they have in the bank, or how many times they had sex in the past month. But is any of that your business?

As several have pointed out already, enlightenment is not about anyone else but you, and what you may or may not be doing about it. One thing is for sure, you will never find it in another person. You can only find it in yourself. The system of practices we discuss here is for aiding sincere seekers in that. Whether the practices work or not is less about some ultimate outcome than about what they are contributing to the quality of life along the way. That is the real deal -- results in daily activity -- more peace, energy, creativity, a rising sense of unity and spontaneous service to others. You don't have to take anyone's word on those things. Just practice and find out for yourself.

None of that is going to answer your question about how many enlightened people there are around here, because there is no answer really, other than "Who knows?" It is a perfectly okay answer, because it is the truth. There is just practice and the resulting experience in daily life. The journey is the destination.

As it says in the Bible:

"You will know the tree by its fruit."
(by its conduct, not by what it tells you it is)

So maybe the question needs some work. Try letting it go in abiding inner silence, and in time you will know ... but will not be able to say, because the truth transcends the fickle mind. It is acts in the divine flow that come up instead.  

As the ancient Taoist saying about enlightenment goes:

"Those who say do not know. Those who know do not say."  

All the best on your path. Practice wisely, and enjoy!

The guru is in you.

PS: If you are interested in end stage development and milestones (as best I could express them) it is suggested to read the later AYP lessons. These have been discussed extensively in the forums as well. But you will not find the precise certification of "enlightenment" you are looking for. Only an honest sharing of practices and experiences at various stages of development (with no ultimate end point), which is the best we can do. How can any of us claim enlightenment when there are so many others suffering and longing for liberation? They are us.


yogani

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How many people have reached enlightment with AYP?
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2014, 04:59:58 AM »
Note: The results of the AYP Survey offer insight on what has been going on with practitioners who have visited the online community since 2011, with 320 respondents to date.

Quite a few enlightenment experience markers are covered there: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/ayp-survey

TGIIY


Dogboy

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How many people have reached enlightment with AYP?
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2014, 05:12:42 AM »
...and then do the laundry and take out the trash.

[;)]

svetamoscow

  • Posts: 16
How many people have reached enlightment with AYP?
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2014, 05:48:16 AM »
thanks for the answers dear Yogani, I am honored to have your personal attention.
Well of course I am was never expecting a number out of a database for obvious reasons. But Yogani's personal guess/estimate would be a very interesting thing to know. I mean would it be dozens, hundreds, thousands... those who have been in touch with AYP or the forum and have graduated from the material existence school, but still live in human body? And, yes, I mean by the definition of kaivalya as understood by yogani, not just the personal opinions of various people.

If somebody graduated from secondary school for example it does not mean of course that this is the end of all learning. I did not ask in that sense, I just thought it would be an interesting and inspirational estimate, especially given by yogani personally. It is just interesting how this "open source" yoga gives fruits, that is all. I know all kinds of Indian gurus and I simply do not see their students reach kaivalya, and the gurus too by the way. But the open source idea seems better for the current world so i decided to ask this question straightforwardly here on the forum.

Bodhi Tree

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How many people have reached enlightment with AYP?
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2014, 09:12:11 AM »
It's such a relative thing. Relative because it depends on the perspective. What is big from one view is tiny from another. The Earth may seem big from the eyes of a single person, but if we zoom out beyond the galaxy, it's just another tiny speck. Similarly, one woman's enlightement may fall way short of another's because of the standards by which they are judging.

Couldn't we say that, to some extent, everything and everyone is already enlightened, or illuminated--just by virtue of being in existence? From that vantage point, then it's just a matter of refining/improving the quality of life/existence, as Yogani said. Quality of life is the determining factor, and that is a subjective view.

There's quite a few teachers who speak of enlightenment as if it's like flipping an ON/OFF switch. One day you're not enlightened; the next day you are. Yesterday you were not awakened; today you're awakened. Especially when they talk about the "ego", or the abstract Self, and then those teachers will have you waiting for the day when you supposedly transcend whatever it is you think you need to transcend. But I don't buy into that. I think it's like starting from zero, and exploring an infinitude of numbers...all the while remaining tethered to the zero of emptiness/stillness. I can be a 7, a 147, and a 1,000,047...depending on the condition. The emptiness of serenity is the only uniting factor in the conditions. So, that's the foundation: tranquility, serenity, inner silence, the cloud of unknowing.

I am wary of anyone who proclaims enlightenment (or indirectly hints at it) with some kind of finality. I think that's a big trap. My experience of the Infinite, Loving God/Goddess is that there is no ceiling to the way THAT can manifest in the field of beingness. No single human could encapsulate that. Maybe we can dissolve into Unity, but I don't think we can ever capture it, or reach a place of absolute conclusion.

As Buzz Lightyear said: To Infinity and beyond! [8D]

svetamoscow

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How many people have reached enlightment with AYP?
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2014, 06:47:15 PM »
Very true Bodhi Tree, no i do not think kaivalya is the end of learning and clarified it myself above on this post. As far as my question is concerned I mean something very specific  and that is kaivalya as understood by yogani himself.

yogani

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How many people have reached enlightment with AYP?
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2014, 12:14:09 AM »
Hi svetamoscow:

I do not view enlightenment in terms of any word or definition that has been written, even by me, and have often said so. What matters is actual experience, and not mine necessarily. It is about the sincere longing (bhakti), practices and resulting experiences of everyone. If we are going to make a difference in mitigating suffering in this world, it has to be viewed in that way. All the rest is theory. There are no absolutes, no graduations, no certifications, no diplomas -- only the gradual improvement in quality of life for as many as possible, and there is no limit in it.

There are no haves and have nots here. Everyone has equal access to knowledge and experience, and all levels of progress from beginning stage to end stage are honored equally.

You are looking for a statistic of a particular attainment, and several have attempted to explain why it is not possible to calculate that. The ancients have said the same, so we are not blowing smoke here. Such claims, by anyone, simply cannot be trusted. Cultivation of early stage abiding inner silence (the witness) alone, which thousands have done with AYP deep meditation, could qualify as kaivalya by one definition of it, if not by others. It's just a word, and we could parse it's meaning all day long and get nowhere. But you can be sure that all the daily meditators are getting somewhere, and that is the point.

From my perspective, everyone who is meditating daily has got enlightenment in the bag, especially if they are learning to give their abiding inner silence away in service to others. Getting enlightenment is giving it away. It is stillness in action. You do not have to trust me on that claim. Just meditate!  [:)]

Did you take a look at the AYP Survey?  It is quite definitive in terms of the percentages of practitioners who are experiencing the various enlightenment markers. And the comments are very revealing also.

The guru is in you.


svetamoscow

  • Posts: 16
How many people have reached enlightment with AYP?
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2014, 12:51:23 AM »
ok, i will give up asking here since even yogani doesn't want to tell me his estimate of his "totally ripe" students. it didn't seem to me that the inner silence is enough to graduate from the school of material existence as far as the the few lessons i read here are concerned, but no problem, it was just a question and everybody has the freedom to reply or not when asked.
yes, i have visited this website few times over the years and noticed the survey. nice idea, it means somebody cares what happens to the students and that is great. yes, the survey, the open source yoga and mediation and fabulous things, no doubt, just it was not what i was asking.
but it was interesting to observe how when asking a question people instead of answering started guessing about what i am thinking and then started commenting those imaginative guesses instead of the actual question.
thanks a lot.[3]