I'm never as smart as I think I am

[CarsonZi]

quote:Originally posted by karl

All action is the result is the result of uneasiness with the present position. You wish to swap one thing for another in order to remove the unease that is being experienced.

Forgive me for jumping in here, especially as I haven't been following this thread, but I just had to say that the above statement is not true from every perspective.  Uneasiness is *not* the only motivator for action.  If this was the case, then those who are truly "at ease" (in any given moment) would never do anything.  Literally.  This is not the case.  I'm not sure that there is anyone on the planet that is ever totally at ease at all times, but there are many who are at ease much of the time (or even just some of the time), and these people are involved in all kinds of action that is not the result of being uneasy with the current situation.  The motivation for action changes as we become more and more comfortable with whatever is happening in the moment (no matter how challenging it is), but the motivation is not always to "change" things.  In my experience, as the "personal will" begins to melt more and more, the motivation for action becomes impossible to locate... simply because the motivation isn't "ours" anymore.  But the action still happens and it is not the result of uneasiness.  Just thought it was worth mentioning that the above statement is not true for everyone.

Love!
Carson

[karl]

quote:Originally posted by CarsonZi

quote:Originally posted by karl

All action is the result is the result of uneasiness with the present position. You wish to swap one thing for another in order to remove the unease that is being experienced.

Forgive me for jumping in here, especially as I haven't been following this thread, but I just had to say that the above statement is not true from every perspective.  Uneasiness is *not* the only motivator for action.  If this was the case, then those who are truly "at ease" (in any given moment) would never do anything.  Literally.  This is not the case.  I'm not sure that there is anyone on the planet that is ever totally at ease at all times, but there are many who are at ease much of the time (or even just some of the time), and these people are involved in all kinds of action that is not the result of being uneasy with the current situation.  The motivation for action changes as we become more and more comfortable with whatever is happening in the moment (no matter how challenging it is), but the motivation is not always to "change" things.  In my experience, as the "personal will" begins to melt more and more, the motivation for action becomes impossible to locate... simply because the motivation isn't "ours" anymore.  But the action still happens and it is not the result of uneasiness.  Just thought it was worth mentioning that the above statement is not true for everyone.

Love!
Carson

Ah yes, but  then you have moved it into stillness in action. The inability to locate the source of uneasiness does not preclude its presence. Get hungry and you will want to eat, drink  and you will want to go to the toilet, get an itch and the urge to scratch is compulsive. No one is immune except for the dead.

[CarsonZi]

Uneasiness is just a word.  You could just as easily say that the only motivation for action is love.  Whether it is love for survival, love for comfort, love to be seen in a specific way, and on and on.  It all depends on your personal perspective as to how you will verbalize it.  One thing we can agree on, I think, is that action happens.  Beyond that, we are getting into the realm of the subjective and making absolute statements is, well, you know.

Love,
Carson

[Etherfish]

Play isn't caused by unease. It is an expression of joy.

[karl]

quote:Originally posted by CarsonZi

Uneasiness is just a word.  You could just as easily say that the only motivation for action is love.  Whether it is love for survival, love for comfort, love to be seen in a specific way, and on and on.  It all depends on your personal perspective as to how you will verbalize it.  One thing we can agree on, I think, is that action happens.  Beyond that, we are getting into the realm of the subjective and making absolute statements is, well, you know.

Love,
Carson

Well we can make the leap from the frying pan to the fire, we can't definitely know that we will prefer the fire, but we can definitely know that we are leaving the frying pan because we don't wish to remain there any longer. Otherwise why would we want to leave ?

Why don't we stay in one perfect moment forever ?

[karl]

quote:Originally posted by Etherfish

Play isn't caused by unease. It is an expression of joy.

No doubt, but you don't stay in play, or stay in work. You never know if your play will be fruitful, but the reason you do it is that it holds the promise of being superior to your present position. This is what I mean by unease. It doesn't mean that the present position is unpleasant, it simply means you are prepared to swap that position for something presumably better.

You can't stay on the golf course 24/7 uneasiness with that position by tiredness, weather, something else will rear its head and you will decide that some other thing is more beneficial. What is the root cause ? I chose unease, just because it describes my personal state change better than anything else and seems less ambiguous.

All action being predicated on prevailing circumstances which are beyond our control of course.

[Bodhi Tree]

Are you boys running around in circles in this here post? If so, how do I get involved? I know Carson likes him a mosh pit now and again, and I'm happy to oblige with my own stompin'. I say we have a knock-down, drag-out fight over which is the realest: existence or non-existence. I'll take the side of existence; Karl, you take the side of non-existence; and Carson can run back and forth between the two...GO!!

[karl]

quote:Originally posted by Bodhi Tree

Are you boys running around in circles in this here post? If so, how do I get involved? I know Carson likes him a mosh pit now and again, and I'm happy to oblige with my own stompin'. I say we have a knock-down, drag-out fight over which is the realest: existence or non-existence. I'll take the side of existence; Karl, you take the side of non-existence; and Carson can run back and forth between the two...GO!!

What if I'm not on a side at all ? I'm simply moving between the different ends of a process. At the beginning there is nothing to be found. We cannot go further than that because we are directly limited by the apparatus we use to enquire.

Do we operate directly from that point without intermediate steps ? Then it would mean that the divine has a purpose laid out for us and the course is set by something beyond our enquiry. It is beyond my knowledge to know.

Yet my personal experience is of both. Acceptance that I am unable to go beyond myself for answers, yet able to define choice however much of an illusion it might seem to be. I accept that this is also how it is because that is the experience however flawed.

We can argue if we move away or toward something, but we are always in transition. We are only ever at 'now' so we can only ever seem to move away from that point even if that is but a relative creation. What is left to know as moment slips seamlessly to moment ? Only that which is manifestly human, otherwise we have to deny ourselves totally and that seems pretty pointless.

All that's needed is frictionless apparent decision making. How can we make the decision with pure integrity ? The answer is that we cannot know if its pure integrity so its far easier to simply accept everything for what it is or seems to be. Then there is no friction, regardless if its the divine or unease that drives the action. It is that acceptance that has removed the sense of fear from me, this does not mean I cannot feel fear, just that I no longer reject or attach to it. It simply is and then there is no friction.

Say that we get tooth ache. Then if it were true that we were at ease then we would do nothing and simply live with the tooth ache. We are not moving towards a dentist until we decide that we are at unease with our present position. Does anyone really believe that we go to the dentist before the feeling of unease ?

[Etherfish]

Well I do, but not for a toothache. I would say unease is one of many causes of action.

[karl]

quote:Originally posted by Etherfish

Well I do, but not for a toothache. I would say unease is one of many causes of action.

Try and define any others. It is always unease with the present position. I'm struggling to come up with another word that is as succinct as unease, anything else adds construction errors to the concept.

In your previous example you mentioned a ball on a tee. If you just left it there then the game could not continue, but what If the game doesn't continue ? What is lost or gained ? So the unease isn't about the ball and the tee, instead it is about the position of stasis. What happens next after you, or someone else hits the ball ? You don't know, you can only posit that the enjoyment will be an improvement on the previous position.

Even if you decide not to hit the ball then this is also action, it does not mean you have remained in stasis. Instead you have made an active choice that not hitting the ball will achieve a better result than hitting it.

We make millions of these decisions everyday, some are obvious and some hardly register.

[CarsonZi]

quote:Originally posted by karl

Try and define any others. It is always unease with the present position.

As I mentioned in my previous post, Love can also be a "prime mover."

Love,
Carson

[Etherfish]

Karl wrote:
"Try and define any others. It is always unease with the present position."

No, play is not like that at all. You said earlier:

"You never know if your play will be fruitful, but the reason you do it is that it holds the promise of being superior to your present position."

That's an adult analysis by someone who has forgotten their childhood! True play isn't planned to be fruitful, or undertaken to relieve some discomfort. From a kid's perspective, they are just doing what they feel like doing, in the moment, for no reason, because it's fun and they are happily expressing themselves. Work can be done in this manner too (not so much on a paid job though).
Kids on a playground don't play because the classroom makes them uncomfortable; it was natural for them before being restricted.

[karl]

quote:Originally posted by Etherfish

Karl wrote:
"Try and define any others. It is always unease with the present position."

No, play is not like that at all. You said earlier:

"You never know if your play will be fruitful, but the reason you do it is that it holds the promise of being superior to your present position."

That's an adult analysis by someone who has forgotten their childhood! True play isn't planned to be fruitful, or undertaken to relieve some discomfort. From a kid's perspective, they are just doing what they feel like doing, in the moment, for no reason, because it's fun and they are happily expressing themselves. Work can be done in this manner too (not so much on a paid job though).
Kids on a playground don't play because the classroom makes them uncomfortable; it was natural for them before being restricted.

I don't think I ever gave up my childhood I'm quite flattered that you believe I am taking an adult position.

Everything appears spontaneous because we are always making a stream of decisions, even as children this is true. Remember that I said that circumstance is beyond control and is continually evolving based on an infinite number of things.

The child cannot stay in the classroom so has to go into the playground. Then the choices come up. Do I stay here at the door or join that game of football. Always calculations are going on to define which will produce the better outcome. Maybe parents have told you not to scuff your shoes or damage your uniform, maybe you don't like some of those playing the game. Of course this happens almost instantaneously and then the decisions continue.

Why do you move from the door to playing the game? Because you calculate that the latter position will fulfil more of your values and goals than the former. The former is then a position of unease ( I apologise for the word, I don't particularly like it because it sounds like fear/pain/active dislike. That isn't how I mean it, instead I'm saying that the position is no longer one at which you wish to stay ). It moves from the present to the past and is lost for all time, it is discarded and everything is related to the present once again.

I think it's a marvellous thing, a creative flow, creative action. Without it we would be rocks

Anyway, not to worry, I don't think it's vitally important in the great game, just makes an interesting discussion.

[Etherfish]

I don't think most kids do that much calculation. A few do. I was like that. My dad impressed on me that I had to think before I did anything. It stifled spontanaety, creativity, and I couldn't do well at any sport because my brain couldn't keep up, whereas other kids used muscle memory and did fine. I wasn't accepted and couldn't establish a normal social position because i tried to run everything through my brain. It's not normal to process that much.

[karl]

quote:Originally posted by Etherfish

I don't think most kids do that much calculation. A few do. I was like that. My dad impressed on me that I had to think before I did anything. It stifled spontanaety, creativity, and I couldn't do well at any sport because my brain couldn't keep up, whereas other kids used muscle memory and did fine. I wasn't accepted and couldn't establish a normal social position because i tried to run everything through my brain. It's not normal to process that much.

You were self aware. The others did just as much calculation but they don't question it. Being self aware is an exceptional gift, but it also causes immense separation and makes it difficult to easily fit in. I know it only too well, I just developed a coping mechanism and acted the part. My book is titled square peg in a round hole which should suggest what it's about