The Ride, Destination, and Faith...

[Katrine]

Sparkle wrote:
 

quote:A witness must have consciousness.

The witness does not have consciousness.
The witness is the witnessing.
As for what else to call it....I haven't a clue. As for the Absolute truth....I haven't a clue. But I have heard of the term "Devine coma". It implies that in total Oneness even the consciousness of being conscious goes. Or maybe that it cannot be remembered....so that the instant you return from it, it is lost from your perception. I don't know. I don't have to know either. To be, turns out to be more than enough.

All I experience is that the witnessing is all there is.  Or like Jim said:

 

quote:and all is one with no second.

And This "isness" is dynamic.

May all your Nows be Here

[Katrine]

Frank wrote:

 

quote:But what of the destination? any road will take you there if its not understood, yet we're all on the bus!

Could it be this thing called faith ( sraddha)?

Like I said above I don't believe at all. But Faith .....well...I have no faith....but I am lots of it. Don't quite know how to frase this.........

Since the destination is always here now, all I have to "do" is trust the witnessing.  Or rather; when i shut up, the witnessing is what remains and the experience of this generates a...trusting. The surrendering is the trusting is the "faithing" is the witnessing....is

One

May all your Nows be Here

[Sparkle]

Hi Katrine and all

Katrine said
The witness does not have consciousness.
The witness is the witnessing.

This thing about loosing our consciousness to enlightenment does not make sense to me, experientially or intellectually.

What you are suggesting would seem to indicate that a fully realised enlightened individual is unconscious and unaware and living in a coma. This is clearly not the case.
It would seem more like this individual is more fully conscious and more fully aware because if the enlightenment.

The Buddhist term for being fully aware in the now, is as I'm sure you know Mindfulness, it does not imply lack of consciousness, it implies greater consciousness.

When we free our minds of the past and the future and come into this present _________, are we not more fully aware and more fully conscious.
Perhaps the witness is consciousness is oneness

Louis

[Sparkle]

Hi again

On faith and belief.

I could say the only thing I believe in is belief itself.
I do know one thing though. If I use the word "believe" in a samyama way it holds hugh power for me, it seems to come alive in my being.

I understand also the the word belief comes from two words, "be" and "live". To live in a state of being. So we can say I believe in some particular thing or we can say "I believe" or simply "believe".


Faith is difficult for me, it used to mean faith in a particular religion, now it has more to do with surrender.

My 2 cents
Louis

[Katrine]

Hi Louis

I understand what you are saying.

When I say that the witness does not have consciousness, I don't mean that the witness is unconscious. On the contrary, the witness is so conscious that this is all there is. Not someone being conscious of something else. Not two. One. The thing is: who is to speak, and to whom is this speaking when all is One? Speach then is completely reduntant. Speach then is a clutter.

The witness is not a noun. It is not a concept at all. It is not something my intellect can uncerstand. Being can only be understood by being it.

When I say "the witness is the witnessing" I mean: "the witness is the "consciousnessing".....

It is not our consciousness that is lost to enlightenment. It is the clutter that is lost to enlightenment. All that veils the light.

Then again.....what do i know?
I can explain from my platau of understanding; my capability of being.......but it is still just a fraction of Being.



May all your Nows be Here

[Katrine]

By the way, Louis:
I love your 2 cents


May all your Nows be Here

[weaver]

quote:Originally posted by Sparkle

This thing about loosing our consciousness to enlightenment does not make sense to me, experientially or intellectually.

Hi Louis,

It wouldn't make sense to me either. If we would lose our consciousness in enlightenment there wouldn't be any point to it.

quote:
It would seem more like this individual is more fully conscious and more fully aware because of the enlightenment.

I agree fully with this.

Yogani writes in Lesson 274 http://www.aypsite.com/plus/274.html
"As for what is next once inner silence and ecstatic conductivity are coming up, it is a long drawn-out joining of these two, played out as much in our daily activity as in our practices. This gives rise to the "child" of the union, as it were, called "jivan mukti," or "christ consciousness." This is the end game of yoga..."

[david_obsidian]

Frank said:
When was the last time you bought a car , site unseen? Didn't look at it , kick the tires, noth'n. " I'll take it" you said.
We have never test drove emancipation, never interviewed IT to see if wish to join the team???

True,  but here's the great thing --- it's true for life itself,  isn't it?  This thing that we are,  whatever it is, (and I don't think it is eternal individual souls)  said,  YES to this our LIFE without a test-drive.  With a test-drive,  would it be such a wonderful mystery?

So here we are again,  going into the mystery again,  without a test-drive,  but into enlightenment,  which is really just entering life more fully...

It's always and forever the same old game.  Unborn,  eternal, primeval and unchangeable,  the sports-car salesman with the great spin (God),  and the sucker born every day (us) are one and the same at the end of the day.  Both think they are getting a great deal,  and the truth is,  they both are.

A test-drive would spoil it all,  wouldn't it?  

[Anthem]

I think the whole debate of the witness having consciousness or not or losing it or not to enlightenment is more an issue of words meaning different things to different people than anything else.

Katrine I hope you don’t mind me trying to understand your words a little more![]

When Katrine wrote "the witness does not have consciousness" the witness is the witnessing. Does it make more sense if she had said instead "the witness does not have self-consciousness"? In other words the witness just is, it doesn't think or label itself as something or someone or label what it is witnesses as something. It just is, it knows the reality of what it is witnessing first hand instead of through definitions or labels nor through the filter of the self in relation to what it perceives.

The way I see it is that we lose our self-consciousness to enlightenment but not our awareness which is always here, there and present. In other words all the stuff I use to use to define myself: “I am a doctor, great cook, nice human-being, generous person, advanced yogi etc., etc.” are all just labels and things that we are "acting out" to define our egos. As we witness and become aware of our true nature, these labels drop away and we realize that beneath it all we just are that pure awareness and that everything around us is that to.

[Katrine]

Hi Anthem
You wrote:
 

quote:Katrine I hope you don’t mind me trying to understand your words a little more!

I don't mind it - I love it!

 

quote:As we witness and become aware of our true nature, these labels drop away and we realize that beneath it all we just are that pure awareness and that everything around us is that to.

Exactly.
Pure awareness is This.
All there is is This.
Pure awareness is the witness. It is not our physical eyes (our personality/ego) that witness; it is Silence.
I therefore cannot say that pure awareness has pure awareness. ("The witness has consciousness"). That's like stating that the ocean has water. That is making two of one. The ocean doesn't have water. The ocean is water.

Sparkle wrote:
 

quote:Perhaps the witness is consciousness is oneness

Anthem wrote:

 

quote:It just is, it knows the reality of what it is witnessing first hand instead of through definitions or labels nor through the filter of the self in relation to what it perceives.

Yes...to all of the above!
And when I, because of direct ecperience (being it), know the full reality of what I am witnessing , then the seer, the seen and the seeing is One.

This is our gift to nature:
 Through our constant surrendering; through the channels we are; the ocean comes to know itself as this Oneness (the witness, consciousness)

Hence all the Joy!

May all your Nows be Here

[Sparkle]

Hi Frank, David,weaver, Anthem and Katrine and all
I see there are two discussions going on here and we are not discussing Franks question. Hope you don't mind Frank.

We seem to have come to a common understanding about becoming more fully conscious as we evolve, which is great. For some reason a lot of people do not see it this way, and I'm not saying they are wrong.

weaver, I read yogani's lesson 274 as you suggested, where he talks about becoming the child and this is Christ consciousness, and this is ending up in the heart with an outpouring of divine love - the one heart - a great read and it is where this "drive" is taking us.

When it is said "we should become as little children", like many or most of these sayings the literal interpretation does not apply. The little child has no labels, no self-consciousness(ego). The average little child however does not have full awareness and full consciousness.
We develop this awareness and consciousness as we go through the dividing process and back again to unity. It is through the divide that we learn and become conscious. So our ego and our separation are in fact the tools of our enlightenment. Without this we would still be like little children but we would not be on the road to conscious enlightenment, we would be like the tree - beautifully still but unaware (as far as we know).
So we become like little children, with our labels gone and also with awareness of our Christ consciousness or jivan mukti.

Anthem said:
As we witness and become aware of our true nature, these labels drop away and we realize that beneath it all we just are that pure awareness and that everything around us is that to.

This is beautiful Anthem, and then I wonder if it is fully true, and maybe its another word thing. Does realising we are all one with everything mean that everything is aware of this, as in everything is awareness?. Perhaps it is this awareness, as Katrine says, that we bring to nature.

Frank said:
Perhpaps we will enjoy His Grace; we do today and we are not aware of it (mostly); Its esssence is behind each action we perform. As we fade from ignorance this realization is the gift, that bliss is the current (or rasa) of existence. This is the delight of the 'test drive' we have forgotten all about and is part of us and Him.
Frank, I love your words and I love the word Grace. For me it is like a continuous stream of silent love intelligence passing through us and everything, calling us back home. Even if we don't see or feel it, it is there pulling us out of our ignorance.
or as David said: the sports-car salesman with the great spin (God), and the sucker born every day (us), are one and the same at the end of the day

As I pull up here on my "beat up car" the tank invariably gets full to overflowing with this Grace fuel - ride on and thank you all.

2 cents
Louis

[Frank-in-SanDiego]

Hari Om
~~~~~~~

quote:Originally posted by Katrine

.When I say that the witness does not have consciousness, I don't mean that the witness is unconscious. On the contrary, the witness is so conscious that this is all there is.

Hello all,
I find your conversation's very inspiring.  Yes, when we think of this witness experience, its definitely not the absence of consciousness...I think we are all vehemently agreeing. Its full of consciousness, yet unblemished, simple and pure.

Is fact ( here's the esoteric part) there is no-thing that is not this consciousness.  All this is THAT…and THAT is consciousness.
This is called Vaishvanara, some call Universal Self.  It is Bhuma, or Fullness or Brahman.  We're delighted when someone starts to 'witness', why is that?  It begins the progress of  differentiating the SELF from non-SELF. This is key for ones development to know that this SELF is not the empirical everyday self we experience. This allows us to underand/see/experince how one can have silence in the mist of activity.  Rest in the mist of alertness… the fundamental experience of 'restful alertness's as one establishes this 4th state of consciousness on an everyday basis.
Enlightenment is very practical, so the 'runway' to enlightenment takes us to this Witness experience.

I am delighted to see  we're talking of this … its part of the 'ride' , scenery and a glimpse of the destination all at the same time.


agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego

[bewell]

Hi Katrine, Anthem and everone reflecting on "witness,"

I too have been thinking about the meaning of "witness."  Last week, I did a search on the word in Yogani's writings.  He generally identifies witness with silence.  "Silence," a term he uses more often, is part of a dialectic:  Silence and conductivity;  Father and Holy Spirit; Shiva and Shakti.  "Silence" is the gap between thoughts that also runs alongside thoughts.

The notion of "witness" came up in Yogani's reviews of the methods of Tolle and Katie where he said that the witness is prerequisite to their work.  To the extent that one has that prerequisite down, then detaching oneself from errors of thinking, going through pain without suffering, and living in the now become easier.

I've also been reflecting on the notions of witness and silence through the lens of my own prior experience and study.  "Witness" is a word that fits for that state of mind I have during automatic yoga.  I witness with only minimal control.  My body moves as other.  I witness in a state of ecstatic absorption, without/between thoughts.

The idea of witness also reminds me of when I was having an ascent of the soul experience.  A part of me was watching, entirely non-anxious, while a sort of whirlwind and fire was entirely changing my body awareness.  But a time came when there was no longer a witness in the ordinary sense, no longer a subject object division, a pure gap.  That gap, I see as the forth state (with the first three being deep sleep, dream sleep, and waking).  That gap is what the NeoPlatonists called the One.  In Christian mysticism the One is the source, the Father to whom we address the Lord's Prayer.  The Father is the imperceptible source of beatitude.

There are gaps and there are gaps.  After the ascent of the soul, where the gap was the climax, "I" was in a state of desireless bliss.  In reflection, I came to see the gap as the portal to the source of that bliss, the source of transcending/satisfying all my heart's desires.  Now, in ordinary meditation, recollecting that gap helps me cultivate inner silence.   By the way, last weekend after I did Yoni Mudra Kumbhaka (lesson #91) and Dynamic Jalandhara – Chin Pump (lesson #139) I came as close as I have ever come to repeating that desireless bliss state.

I'm thinking now as I write that I see the "witness" consciousness as a continuum.  On one end, the witness is identified with the flux of my ordinary ego functioning.  On the other end, the extreme end of the continuum, the witness is identified with the One.  When I am cultivating inner silence, I am moving the witness toward the One.

Bewell

[Shanti]

Its funny Bewell that you got this topic on "the witness" up this morning. I have been contemplating if I should write this... I was going to ask all of you, if what I was experiencing was the witness. I really don't care to give it a name.. but just wondering. For the past few days I have a constant feeling of a presence of something/someone (I prefer thinking of it as Ma Kali) in me/with me... esp. when I am alone... driving, reading or doing some mindless work. I cannot explain it.. its there .. I don't see it, cannot feel it.. just know its there.. gives me a feeling of being full in my heart.. a smile on my face.. like nothing can get to me.. When I do get caught up in something.. there is this thing that reminds me breath.. and everything is back to where it was before I got all caught up. I have noticed people talk to me more lovingly these days (except for a few who were born to trouble me).. even people who did not really care for me before.. ask me stuff in a nice way now. I feel more confident dealing and talking with people.. I don't seem to be so scared of what people will think of me.. what if I make a fool of myself.. My mind is definitely not in the "now" all the time.. I still live in the past or the future..(as per Tolle).. but I don't get caught up in it as much as I used to.. I still don't see lights during meditation, or see or feel the energy move from my head to my heart when I do Jalandhar.. I don't see or feel a lot of things that so many of you seem to experience.. but there is something different in me now... Is this the witness so many of you talk about?
The funny thing is.. I do my AYP practices just once a day.. the second time is a hit or miss.. I get so busy with everything else that the second session, I do, if get a chance.. Not very happy about this.. esp. since Yogani says we should be consistent.. I have been telling myself.. I am creating the groundwork for the future.. another 8 year.. both my kids will be in college.. then I can devote all my time towards my spiritual path.. did not realize how strong AYP was.. it just sweeps you off your feet doesn't it? Thank you Yogani for sharing this wonderful practice with us[]....

[david_obsidian]

Hello Shanti,

more power to your path -- that all sounds good. It's all a continuum you know.  It sounds like you are going into a state of spiritual well-being,  where you feel a Loving Presence.  There are elements of 'Witness' in the business of not being easily disturbed. There is a time-lag right now between disturbance and its correction.  At the other end of the continuum,  then that time-lag goes down to zero,  that is Witness.

'Witness',  at least when complete and strong, is self-determined. It's not looking for anything to reassure it or orient it.  It just is and watches.  When it settles down,  it doesn't even find anything amazing about what it is and is doing.

Which came first,  self-determinedness,  or the ability to simply watch and be a witness?  Probably the self-determinedness,  truly.