kechari -- can't stop pushing the uvula in

[david_obsidian]

OK -- I am starting to get into the secret chamber but....

my uvula seems to always go in too.  And this makes me gag.

I can't seem to get the uvula to stay under the tongue.  It just seems that when I start to push the tongue into the chamber,  in goes the uvula.

Any ideas anyone?

-D

[yogani]

Hi David:

Try the "side entrance," meaning near either the left or right connection point of the edge of the soft palate with the extreme back of the roof of the mouth. Depending on personal anatomy, one will be easier to reach than the other, and whichever one it is will always be the shortest route into kechari for you. If you go in with the tip of the tongue there, the tongue will then slide to the center behind the soft palate and uvula. That way you are going around the uvula, so to speak, and it will be less likely to fold up under the tongue, not that there is anything wrong with that. Once stage 2 is in full swing, the uvula will slide back down under the tongue even when it is folded up on initial entry.

Also, once stage 2 and beyond are well established, the practitioner can go in anywhere across the back edge of the soft palate, including "up the middle" through the uvula. The point of entry matters most in the beginning, when minimizing the distance and getting around the uvula can make the difference between getting in and not getting in. This is when finger help (pushing the tongue back from underneath) comes in handy too. Later on, these fine points don't matter much anymore. It is just in we go, wherever and whenever we like. No finger help is needed then either.

Victor's suggestion of "going forward" over the top of the back side of the soft palate is a good one. When we are in stage 2 especially, the feeling is much like the tongue is laying flat on the bottom of the mouth, except it is laying flat on the "second floor" instead, which is the top (back side) of the soft palate. Stages 3 and 4 extend forward and up from there. It is a lot like sticking your tongue out, except the tongue is going forward and up instead of out the front of the mouth.

That way you can stick your tongue out at someone without them seeing it, and be stroking the "secret spot" for ecstatic conductivity and enlightenment at the same time!      

The guru is in you.

[david_obsidian]

Thanks a lot for your reply Yogani.

Actually,  odd though it may seem,  I am very much going in the side-entrance,  but the uvula is still going in.  I can't seem to be able to avoid it.  Again,  unusual anatomy perhaps? I'll play with it,  varying pressure and so on and maybe I'll get through the problem.

But fortunately I think my tongue is plenty long enough now anyway to go over the uvula as you say -- the uvula just seems to be causing gagging when it goes in and that should be temporary.

Yes,  it is very much like pushing the tongue forward.  I had expected to feel so much more like 'up' but it is indeed more forward in reality, and also much more like forward subjectively.  Perhaps this part of how I got confused.  I can get the tongue in significantly (though then I gag currently and have to pull it out) and the feeling is most extraordinary.  The whole thing feels so unexpected, almost as if the chamber there is in another dimension or has a magical existence.  

Thanks,

-D

quote:Originally posted by yogani

Hi David:

Try the "side entrance," meaning near either the left or right connection point of the edge of the soft palate with the extreme back of the roof of the mouth. Depending on personal anatomy, one will be easier to reach than the other, and whichever one it is will always be the shortest route into kechari for you. If you go in with the tip of the tongue there, the tongue will then slide to the center behind the soft palate and uvula. That way you are going around the uvula, so to speak, and it will be less likely to fold up under the tongue, not that there is anything wrong with that. Once stage 2 is in full swing, the uvula will slide back down under the tongue even when it is folded up on initial entry.

Also, once stage 2 and beyond are well established, the practitioner can go in anywhere across the back edge of the soft palate, including "up the middle" through the uvula. The point of entry matters most in the beginning, when minimizing the distance and getting around the uvula can make the difference between getting in and not getting in. This is when finger help (pushing the tongue back from underneath) comes in handy too. Later on, these fine points don't matter much anymore. It is just in we go, wherever and whenever we like. No finger help is needed then either.

Victor's suggestion of "going forward" over the top of the back side of the soft palate is a good one. When we are in stage 2 especially, the feeling is much like the tongue is laying flat on the bottom of the mouth, except it is laying flat on the "second floor" instead, which is the top (back side) of the soft palate. Stages 3 and 4 extend forward and up from there. It is a lot like sticking your tongue out, except the tongue is going forward and up instead of out the front of the mouth.

That way you can stick your tongue out at someone without them seeing it, and be stroking the "secret spot" for ecstatic conductivity and enlightenment at the same time!      

The guru is in you.

[Manipura]

All this talk of kechari has me intrigued.  I've reached this place in the lessons, and although I and my tongue aren't quite ready to make that leap, I'd dearly love to be able to explore a little.  Or, better stated, when it's time to explore, I'd like to be prepared.  What does anyone think of a little preparatory frenum snipping?  Currently my tongue can reach back into the soft palate a short distance, but at some point clipping will be necessary if I want to go further.  David - when you spontaneously clipped, was it out of curiosity, or did you have some kind of intuition that it was right to do so?  I really want to do it, but wanted some imput before I do.  Thanks!


meg

[Victor]

Give it a try and be careful Meg. Its best to underdo at first than do too much and get achy and scared away from continuing.
 I am glad to see a couple of folks going into this practice as I was starting to get lonely thinking that I was the only one in the online world doing Kechari! No doubt it is an extremely rare practice outside of India and no doubt rare there as well.
 Most Yogis doing Kechari don't appear to be interested in sharing this on the internet or are too involved with their Sadhana to get into such a modern thing. I am so grateful to Yogani for being the ONLY one in the world that I have seen who has made this practice public beyond quoting an ancient scripture here and there.

[david_obsidian]

Hi Meg,

yes,  I did take a clip or two out of my frenum years ago,  going on nothing but intuition and desire.  No,  it wasn't curiousity really...

 I did know that pushing the tongue up to the roof of the mouth was a yogic practice,  and I was taught it,  but I knew no more than that.  Anyway,  I started doing that practice of pushing my tongue up,  and had been doing a lot of meditation for some time.  I got the 'urge' to get my tongue further,  and when it became clear what was in the way,  I decided to try to clip it.  

I suppose that urge comes from experiencing that it is doing something for you,  and wanting it to do more for you.

As regards preparatory clipping,  do you mean clipping more than you need,  for the future?  Well,  sure,  why not ... but no reason to hold yourself back from the actual practice itself until you actually encounter a point you don't yet want to cross.

Regards,

-David

quote:Originally posted by meg

All this talk of kechari has me intrigued.  I've reached this place in the lessons, and although I and my tongue aren't quite ready to make that leap, I'd dearly love to be able to explore a little.  Or, better stated, when it's time to explore, I'd like to be prepared.  What does anyone think of a little preparatory frenum snipping?  Currently my tongue can reach back into the soft palate a short distance, but at some point clipping will be necessary if I want to go further.  David - when you spontaneously clipped, was it out of curiosity, or did you have some kind of intuition that it was right to do so?  I really want to do it, but wanted some imput before I do.  Thanks!


meg

[david_obsidian]

quote:Originally posted by Victor


 I am so grateful to Yogani for being the ONLY one in the world that I have seen who has made this practice public beyond quoting an ancient scripture here and there.

Oh yeah.  I'd have probably been enjoying the benefits for years if it had been brought out and made public years ago.

Of course,  the Internet had to come before Yogani.

[Manipura]

What I meant by preparatory clipping is taking small clips now, so that when I'm ready to go into the practice, my tongue will be there with me.  But realistically, as my tongue and curiosity and desire grow, it's not likely that I'll wait too long to begin exploring.  Since Victor brought up the subject of not overdoing it, I'll admit a hesitancy to dive into it head first, as it's a little intimidating.  I don't gag well.  Any reports of anyone ever dying of premature kechari?  :\\  I feel like I'm standing at the entrance to a magic cave, peering into the dark, and I want to shine a light in there.  


m

[Victor]

What I meant by not overdoing has to do with the clipping. You don't want to cut yourself too deeply and then feel trauma that will prevent you from continuing. I wouldn't worry at all about doing the practice itself, or for that matter stretching your tongue by pulling it out, drying it off a bit and just gently stretching it with your hand. that worked well for me when I was developing the practice itslef. Once you start clipping your tongue I have no doubt that you will want to explore and play with kechari and I would just enjoy that whenever you get a chance (with no one looking). I wouldn't worry about gagging at all, just about care in the snipping process.

[david_obsidian]

Hi Meg,

why not practice?  The really big transition is getting into stage 2,  and you can wait outside that door as long as you want if you think you need to.

Or are you already at that door to stage 2,  wanting to delay going in?  And wondering if you should snip-while-you wait?  (I see nothing wrong with snipping-while-you wait -- and nothing wrong with delaying going in if it feels right to.)

One other thing to be said for practice --- it was only through regular practice that I developed the desire to go further and started snipping.  So there's another reason to practice -- it can stimulate the desire for more.

-David

quote:Originally posted by meg

What I meant by preparatory clipping is taking small clips now, so that when I'm ready to go into the practice, my tongue will be there with me.  But realistically, as my tongue and curiosity and desire grow, it's not likely that I'll wait too long to begin exploring.  Since Victor brought up the subject of not overdoing it, I'll admit a hesitancy to dive into it head first, as it's a little intimidating.  I don't gag well.  Any reports of anyone ever dying of premature kechari?  :\\  I feel like I'm standing at the entrance to a magic cave, peering into the dark, and I want to shine a light in there.  


m

[david_obsidian]

One thing I found is that the 'trauma' tended to be worse for significant-snips in the earlier stages.  As more of the frenum gets eradicated,  what remains tends to be even less sensitive.

For the stretching the tongue exercises,  I merely use a cotton handkerchief -- I use it to hold the tongue,  much like you would hold something hot with a towel.  This makes for a very good grip.

Stretching/milking the tongue,  btw,  buys you only two things:  one, it may get you a few millimeters gain in the length of your tongue and then you will hit the frenum limit.  That few millimeters gain maxes out early and never gets longer.

The other thing it will help with is getting tendon fibers to the surface.  This can speed up the readiness for the next snipping.

BTW,  one of the things that told me how powerful amaroli was for me was that I could immediately see myself healing faster as a result of it.  I can do a significant clipping job now about every ten days or so.  It used to be well over two weeks for a significant job to heal.

Regards,

-david

quote:Originally posted by Victor

What I meant by not overdoing has to do with the clipping. You don't want to cut yourself too deeply and then feel trauma that will prevent you from continuing. I wouldn't worry at all about doing the practice itself, or for that matter stretching your tongue by pulling it out, drying it off a bit and just gently stretching it with your hand. that worked well for me when I was developing the practice itslef. Once you start clipping your tongue I have no doubt that you will want to explore and play with kechari and I would just enjoy that whenever you get a chance (with no one looking). I wouldn't worry about gagging at all, just about care in the snipping process.

[Victor]

David, from what i gather of your process you may not need to snip anymore. Once the tongue is comfortably resting on the inner nostril holes one doesn't really need to snip. Then perhaps after a year or so of practice of stage 3 if you want to go to stage 4 then you may want to clip again, i don't know. Stage b3 is a very good place to rest while doing practice and helps accelerate progress quite a bit.
 As for stage 4 while I belive that my tongue may have the necessary length the tip is a bit thick to enter the inner nostrils and my practice of stage 3 is very satisfying so I am going to wait awhile before going further.

[david_obsidian]

Yes,  Victor,  it is true that I may not need to snip for some time.  I can probably reach stage three too even now,  but in these early days I'm even going to stay at stage 2 for a while.

Still,  I might do what Meg said --- I might snip in advance.  I have a very comfortable snipping routine going,  and I think that my frenum may be entirely gone if I snip for another few months.

quote:Originally posted by Victor

David, from what i gather of your process you may not need to snip anymore. Once the tongue is comfortably resting on the inner nostril holes one doesn't really need to snip. Then perhaps after a year or so of practice of stage 3 if you want to go to stage 4 then you may want to clip again, i don't know. Stage b3 is a very good place to rest while doing practice and helps accelerate progress quite a bit.
 As for stage 4 while I belive that my tongue may have the necessary length the tip is a bit thick to enter the inner nostrils and my practice of stage 3 is very satisfying so I am going to wait awhile before going further.

[lucidinterval1]

Thanks all for this informative discussion thread. I have been snipping very slightly for nearly a year. A couple of them recently were pretty "meaty" snips. My tendon is now exposed. I am not sure if I trimmed some of the fibers or not. It seems like I did. My mouth tends to heal very quickly - usually within a day or two. I am also at the stage of trying to get around the uvula. It feels so very close but I have not yet made it around the bend. I push my finger in and try whenever I get a chance and I think that it is just a matter of time. I am really looking forward to achieving stage 2.
Paul

[david_obsidian]

Hello Paul,

>>> I am not sure if I trimmed some of the fibers or not. It seems like I did.

The snipping of tendon fibers should be happening in all of the frenum-snipping you are doing.  You wouldn't necessarily be conscious of it because the fibers are really tiny and can't be seen individually,  but you can see the evidence of them when you pull the tongue because their tautness makes the frenum hard.

If you are doing meaty snips and healing in a day or two,  that's remarkably fast.  Maybe you mean meaty in a different way than I do -- or maybe you are Superman.  

-David

quote:Originally posted by lucidinterval1

Thanks all for this informative discussion thread. I have been snipping very slightly for nearly a year. A couple of them recently were pretty "meaty" snips. My tendon is now exposed. I am not sure if I trimmed some of the fibers or not. It seems like I did. My mouth tends to heal very quickly - usually within a day or two. I am also at the stage of trying to get around the uvula. It feels so very close but I have not yet made it around the bend. I push my finger in and try whenever I get a chance and I think that it is just a matter of time. I am really looking forward to achieving stage 2.
Paul