Hi Christi,
Thanks very much for staying with this dialog; you've made some very important points in this post that I very much appreciate.
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Your last post adressed to me helped to clarify many things, but there are still other things which I am concerned about so maybe we could discuss a little further...
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
.... all we're saying is: enlightenment is real; it's wonderful, in a normal and real way; you can actually have it, too; all you have to do is drop all your ideas about it ... and everything else.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
I think this is the crux of the matter. What I am hearing you say (in this thread and many others) is a lot of the stuff before the dots and not a lot, if any, of the stuff after the dots (until your last, helpful clarifying post). In other words, often, it sounds like you are saying: "All you need to do is drop your ideas about being unenlightened, and you will realize that you have been enlightened all along".
Thanks, Christi. I can see how someone could potentially interpret that comment in that way ... and that is absolutely
not what I am intending to convey.
What I am saying is this:
In my experience, there is a tendency to mystify and conceptualize enlightenment, which pushes the experience of it farther away.
In the "spirit of AYP", which is to help as many people to experience enlightenment as possible, I was attempting to give a clearer picture of the actuality of enlightenment.
My phrasing may have, for some people at least, potentially been counter-productive, so let me see if I can clear up what I was trying to say.
Our true nature is original unaugmented awareness.
The augmented awareness of limited-mind/ego occurs within (is a subset of) original awareness.
Original awareness is always already here.
Obviously, however, the
experiencing of original unaugmented awareness is anything
but always already here; "hence yoga".
"Dropping all ideas" about everything else includes much of what is stored in long-term physical memory (protein-encoded memory, in and as the brain and body).
Meditation and yoga practices literally reformat the body-mind .... literally, physically and energetically recreate it.
I have never known or known of an enlightened person (quote-unquote) who has not gone through this process.
I'm not sure it is possible to avoid this process.
A non-reformatted body-mind cannot contain and express enlightenment, any more than a prepubescent child can produce another child, sexually.
100% of the intent of my statements in this thread is this:
To help make sadhana (yogic practices) more efficient, by helping to eradicate some/all of the conceptual misperception surrounding enlightenment, by simply stating that enlightenment is attainable, that AYP can help us to experience (the fairly-generally accepted definition/condition of) enlightenment, and that
no ideas about enlightenment are useful to facilitating the experience of enlightenment.
This includes the idea that enlightenment is found somewhere other than here, and "some when" other than now.
That's the entire point of my saying "enlightenment is real; enlightenment is all that's real".
I simply mean that enlightenment is nothing conceptual; it involves nothing that is not real.
Technically, this includes the condition of unenlightenment; if someone is suffering based upon misperceiving their true nature as partial and unwhole, this is part of reality ....
but the basis for their suffering, their conceptual conditioning, is not real.
And so, if people "get" (mentally understand) that there's nothing about enlightenment that's actually outside of what they truly are, and specifically, what they truly are here and now (where else, and "when else", is there?), it can help them to understand that it is only conceptual misunderstanding,
including conceptual misunderstanding encoded in long-term physical memory that is governing the neurochemistry of the body-mind ... that makes and projects unenlightenment.
Just as physical exercise reformats neurochemistry (on top of its other myriad health benefits), so does meditation and yoga.
Exercise primarily addresses physical and mental health; meditation and yoga practices help open the door to spiritual health ... and to the realms of infinite awareness beyond the experience of "physical and mental only".
Every instance of ego reinforces error in the body-mind.
Every instance of thought-free awareness reinforces truth in the body-mind.
And so, while the fulness of infinite, eternal, original unaugmented awareness is who and what we each and all actually are now ....
It will very, very likely take some significant meditation and yoga practices (or the practices of an equivalently efficacious set of spiritual disciplines) to create an "enlightenment capable" environment in a given body-mind.
The way to this experiencing has been known all over the world for thousands of years.
When language and culture "externalized" the human experience, the way back home was lost to all but a few in each area of the world (the mystics and yogis of the world's wisdom traditions).
I hope this clears up what I'm saying.
And just as importantly, I hope it inspires everyone reading, concerning what's possible.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Now you say this is an invitation, but it could very easily be interpreted as a practice... something you have to do in order to realize enlightenment, an invitation to practice if you like.
That seems to be getting down to the "definitional".
I am suggesting people drop all conceptual ideas, especially any they may think are connected with enlightenment.
I'm not suggesting it as any kind of a formal addition or enhancement to AYP; that's solely Yogani's realm.
I'm simply saying that it's useful to do.
Some might define that as a practice, because it involves the term "do".
I don't think of it as such, nor am I suggesting it as such.
The invitation is *to* the experiencing of enlightenment:
It's real; it's possible; it's worth anything and everything you might go through to get here.
The two primary sets of people I have in mind, when I'm saying the things I'm saying in this thread, are:
*Those who may be pushing enlightenment away from their own experience by conceptualizing it.
&
*Those who may wonder if meditation and yoga are "worth it", over the long run.
Enlightenment (the living experience of living unbound from and as original awareness) does involve utter liberation .... far beyond what the mind can conceive; it involves peace beyond all understanding and the end of all suffering.
I completely disagree with the neo-advaitin view of "this is it" ... if the sense of "this is it" leaves one with an experience that is anything short of what I describe above.
Where and how do I draw the line?
I don't.
Enlightenment is the living experience of the real ... which is whole, perfect and one; our true nature is formless awareness, utterly free; we are not limited to, or by, that which we conceive to limit us.
Identity shifts from the misconception of partiality, to no conception at all.
Anything that includes concepts in the sense of self is simply not real.
Enlightenment is the living experience of freedom from confusing concepts with actuality.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
In fact, it is something which can be done, and enlightenment can be realized by doing it when the conditions for practice are right. You offer this invitation so enthusiastically that it could easily be mistaken for proselytizing even if it isn't.
I'm not so sure I agree with you here, but respect your views as always, and am happy to try to "err" on the side of at least clarifying my view here, if at all possible.
In my experience, many people extend the amount of time it takes to reach enlightenment, or even to make significant progress in sadhana, because they understand at all that it is solely conceptual misunderstanding which ultimately binds them.
And so, the sooner that anyone can learn to see the amazing amount of conceptual stories with and by which they keep unenlightenment in place, the more quickly they will know their true nature, which includes the ongoing, living experience of completion, liberation, clarity and peace.
I don't see this as something the requires the "right conditions" ... but rather, something that anyone can and will be served by noticing and implementing.
Not doing this just involves keeping a dream, a lie, in place longer ... and, as far as I know, no one is ever actually benefited by doing this.
I'm not stating any of this as absolute fact, nor am I evangelizing it, just sharing living experience.
My enthusiasm is much more tied to:
The reality of enlightenment is infinitely better than any and all conceptions about it .... and, as I've said elsewhere in the forum quite a few times: "C'Mon IN; the Divine is Fine!!"
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
As I mentioned in my posts above, I feel that there are certain dangers with this approach and I am concerned that you are not doing enough to high-light the possible dangers and help people avoid these potential pitfalls. I will try and explain as clearly as I can what I see these dangers as being, and what I see you not doing, in terms of helping people to avoid them:
The first danger is that someone hearing those words will think: "Great, I'm already enlightened, there is nothing I need to do", what Yogani calls the illusion of having arrived as we discussed above. Over the years, I have met many people who have told me that there is no need to practice Yoga, because we are all already enlightened, and any attempt to "get enlightened", will simply take us further away from that which we already are. In their view, any striving, which includes engaging in any spiritual practice at all, is an expression of the desire of egoic consciousness and is just part of what “thinking mind” thinks it needs to do in order to get something which it could never get anyway. It is a serious trap, because the logic is impeccable, to the rational mind, and as long as someone is operating from the rational mind, there is little that anyone can do to help someone caught in the trap. On reading your posts, I can't see much that would help someone reading along, avoid falling into this trap.
Hopefully, I've clarified this, above.
Please let me know if you feel any clarity on what I'm actually saying, and/or if you still see any issues, per your concern mentioned above (I agree it is important to help people not to fall into this trap, if at all possible).
And, very good point ..... thank you for raising it.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
A second danger is what Yogani calls "thinking about thinking" which (again) we also discussed above. Even if you are writing “from and as” a place of undifferentiated pure awareness, by the time your words come out of your mouth, or are typed onto a computer screen, they are in the form of concepts.
Technically, this may be true ... but I'm not so sure that it's true generally. If you can give any examples of where you feel I'm stating things conceptually, please let me know.
My general intent is always to be as unambiguous as possible.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
If someone has little or no inner silence present, and is operating largely from a place of mentalization, then these concepts are going to be taken at face value, and the trap of "thinking about thinking" can begin.
True.
However, I would see physical exercise as offering a good analogy, once again, here.
People who have exercised, or engaged in sports or other athletic activities ... or those who have been doing AEP (Advanced Exercise Practices) for a while .... will have more "inherent facility" with the process, than someone who has never exercised, before.
However, good exercise principles are for everyone, and each person can adopt them, according to their own ability.
"Drop all conceptual stories" is something that anyone can at least start to look at, and attempt to implement.
This is the basis for many "consumer level" spiritual teachings, including The Work of Byron Katie, and The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, Adyashanti's teaches, and even AYP (I would say), along with quite a few others.
It seems to be very much suitable for a general audience.
As practices and inquiry deepen, and as practices and inquiry dissolve blocks and facilitate inner silence, one's ability to see and turn away from the conceptual increases.
I've just seen many people needlessly "circle" in unenlightenment for a long time, due to beliefs and concepts.
I don't see any kind of "readiness level" as a pre-requisite to start to notice this dynamic (viewing life and the world through the distorted lenses of one's conceptual conditioning).
And, I'm guessing that some readers, at least, may not have realize how fundamental being "stuck in the conceptual" is, to unenlightenment.
And so, I'm just trying to help everyone's process along, by stating:
*Dropping all conceptual distortion will help you realize the benefits of meditation practice much much faster than if you don't."
It's not an ancillary thing; it's primary.
AUM represents the three "normal" states of limited consciousness: waking, dreaming and deep sleep (A, U & M).
The "U", or dream layer, refers to mental form; mental images - imaginations, concepts, etc.
This also equates to discursive, conceptual thinking ("Life should be ..."; "people are ...", "I should ...."; "she shouldn't ...", etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.).
When we identify with the reactive thinking, with which limited mind has "conditioned and been conditioned" over the course of a lifetime, we basically become a "thought me" ... a fictitious creation of our own limited mind (with a little/lot of "help" from the host of limited minds around the limited mind which seems to "be the person inhabiting this body-mind").
We become this thought-me by "giving and receiving" conceptual conditioning in the (so-called) waking state, which causes reinforcing of re-active thinking.
And in the dream state, whether dreams at night, or conceptual thinking during waking hours .... mental form and mental images are mental form and mental images.
The problematic ones are the conceptual ones that consist of identification with limited form; appearance of limited form doesn't mean we *are* limited form, any more than the content of our sight at this moment says anything about who and what we actually are, now.
Identification with these limited and limiting concepts, as continuously rexperienced and reinforced in the waking (physical) and dreaming (mental) states makes the programming language which is embedded in the long-term memory of the body, which serves as the subconscious operating system for our life.
And it's all based on a mistaken self-conception we were programmed with in early childhood.
Meditation and yoga are the "cure" ... because the inner silence of meditation ... original awareness ... dissolves, or melts the unconscious identification with limited and limiting form which projects unenlightenment from the past, into the present now.
HOWEVER, if we continue to live from conceptual conditioning, not even being aware that it's the primary cause of the pathology of unenlightenment, we are, as they say in Kabbalah: "Sewing with one hand, while undoing the stitch with the other."
Alignment counts for essentially everything.
"When your eye is single, your whole body will be full of light."
Reinforcing conceptual conditioning while meditating and engaging in other yoga practices, is like accelerating with the parking brake on, while driving.
And so, I'm just suggesting:
Maybe release the parking brake (conceptual conditioning) ... you'll drive faster, there will be fewer fits and starts, and the journey home will be much more enjoyable.
It seems to me that when you talk about constantly warning people about this very danger repeatedly in your posts, you are referring to the way you say things to the effect of: "don't believe anything that limited mind tells you, because limited mind is the very thing that is preventing you from seeing your true nature as original unconditioned awareness".
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
What concerns me is that someone who is coming from a place of conceptualization (limited mind) may take that concept (your advice and warning), and make it the thought about which thought revolves.
Isn't this true of the vast majority of spiritual teaching, in the world?
It's very difficult not to do this (conceptualize that which can be conceptualize, rather than simply see where it is pointing).
I'm saying "New York City - 10 Miles" ......... if someone says "But what does he mean by 'New'?" Or "Well, I read that ''York' doesn't have anything to do with tall buildings; in fact, it's not even in North America!" .... then maybe that conceptual-self isn't quite ready to visit New York City .....
![[8D]](http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/Smileys/akyhne/icon_smile_cool.gif "Cool")
... but that doesn't necessarily mean that others won't be happy and relieved to hear that New York City is only ten miles away ... especially if they've been taught that they might not see it in this lifetime .... or that you have to become a giant gorilla before you can visit .....
).
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
In other words someone may think that all they need to do is to "figure out" how to stop having un-enlightened thoughts, and then they will "get it". Again, you wouldn't believe the number of people I have come across playing this game, after having encountered neo-advaitist teachings. It’s the biggest tail chasing game imaginable, and can go on for years.
So what I am saying is that putting in the caveat: "Aything you could think about enlightenment, isn't it", isn't necessarily going to prevent people from falling into the trap of "thinking about thinking".
I feel that a stronger, and clearer warning about the necessity of the presence of inner silence is useful here, as the trap of “thinking about thinking”, or “working enlightenment out”, can’t be engaged in when the mind is silent.
I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY WITH WHAT YOU WROTE ABOVE.
In fact, that's what I've been trying to emphasize.
It's almost impossible to state it too strongly.
Concepts have nothing to do with enlightenment.
Concepts cannot be present when the mind is silent.
What I am saying is: anyone can help this process along by watching for, and releasing the conceptual .... not by thinking about it .... but by "dropping" or "turning away from" the thought.
Addicts who think about drugs usually use more drugs. Addicts and alcoholics who really wants to be "clean and sober" are willing to follow the proven steps which help preserve sobriety.
Thinking about alcohol and drugs as little as possible helps to move one in the direction of solid and permanent sobriety.
Thinking about anything conceptual as little as possible helps move one in the direction of solid and permanent enlightenment.
Meditation and yoga are the most powerful initial ways to do this.
Once again, I'm just saying: anyone can make the process much easier on themselves by knowing that releasing conceptual identification to form facilitates enlightenment ... and behaving and (not) thinking, accordingly.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
The third danger, as (again) I mentioned above briefly, is the danger of premature kundalini awakening. If someone does manage to drop all unenlightened thoughts (after following your invitation to do so), and has an awakening experience (an experience of the oneness of all things), it can happen either after, or before the awakening of kundalini. If it happens before the awakening of kundalini, then it is a kind of "all bets off" scenario. An awakening experience can be (as I'm sure you know) an extremely powerful experience and can last anything from hours or days, to weeks or months. The pull on kundalini can be very strong and so there is no way of gauging the speed of kundalini awakening that may follow, or, for that matter, the degree of readiness of the person involved.
I'm not so sure this is correct.
Reason being: I don't see myself as saying anything different than what Adyashanti, Byron Katie or Eckhart Tolle have said ... and, as far as I know, they haven't precipitated premature kundalini awakenings in anyone.
If you see me as saying anything that is substantially different than what they teach (with allowance for phrasing, of course) .... please let me know.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
You say that you are not advising anyone to fly who does not have the wings to fly with. What I hear you saying, repeatedly is this: "enlightenment is real; it's wonderful, in a normal and real way; you can actually have it, too; all you have to do is drop all your ideas about it ". I don’t hear any mention of who may be ready to follow this advice safely, and who may not in terms of kundalini.
Once again, I'm saying that by way of encouragement.
Yogani has said the same thing, using slightly different words.
So has every other spiritual teacher who is popular in this forum (Byron Katie, Adyashanti, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Ramana Maharshi, etc.).
I don't recall any, with the possible exception of Yogani, adding in any caveats at all ... and certainly not to the degree you're indicating is needed.
I actually see the "issue", if it can be called such, exactly the inverse of what you're concerned about (with this third concern you've raised).
The issue isn't that people will "overload" .... it's that they'll attempt to drop conceptual ideas, and/or be confused about exactly what constitutes conceptual ... and may feel that there is something wrong, per their inability to simply drop attachment to conceptual conditioning.
To anyone who experiences this, or is concerned about it, I would say:
Practice AYP.
In a previous post, I explained how inner silence gives way to samadhi, which gives way to samadhi in daily life, which gives way to permanent identity shift.
Each of those steps represents an order-of-magnitude increase in the experiencing of original awareness, and/or of its influence.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
The thing about saying things like: “enlightenment is wonderful, all you have to do is drop all your ideas about it ...”, is that most people simply don't “get it”. In fact, in my experience the vast majority of people don't get it. If most people did get it, all of Yogani's writings would have been a waste of time. It would simply have been enough for him to have written: "Let go of all of your illusory thoughts about reality, and see that we are and have always been, one."
I'm pretty sure I've never said
*all* you have to do.
I've said that dropping ideas represents a potentially major benefit, in terms of decreasing one's time to experiencing enlightenment .... in conjunction with, and on top of, proven practices (including inquiry), from the world's proven yogic and mystical traditions.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
What we really need to be asking here is: "What is the best way to bring someone to the point where they are able to see through the illusory nature of the self, and live as unbound awareness, forever free?" In my opinion, and experience, it has always been, spiritual practices. I am sure you would agree, so what I am saying is that very often I don't feel that comes across well through the way you write, and very often, something quite other comes across. I am also saying that the cautionary advice you give, even when it is there, could well be insufficient given the potential problems involved.
I hope that helps to clarify my concerns.
Christi
I do agree.
And I hope you are now clear, at least, on what I'm actually saying.
If I haven't made myself quite clear, I'm not sure what else I can do to clarify.
And, I hope that with that clarification, you may see that I'm not actually saying anything differently than anyone else who is expressing the actuality of enlightenment (i.e. Tolle, Kate, Yogani, Adya, etc.) ... though if this dialog has actually helped anyone to be more clear than they already were on what I am saying, it is worthwhile, of course.
And finally: the main point of my statements in this thread is simply to convey:
Enlightenment is real, and you can experience it (said to anyone reading).
It's not a fantasy; it doesn't involve many of the super-human powers that some people dream it does ... and consistent meditation and yoga .... which always includes dissolution of the conceptual dream (which facilitates, enables and defines enlightenment and liberation) at every level of consciousness, including the physical/neurochemical ... and this usually (always, as far as I know) takes both practices, and time ... and leads to enlightenment.
And it's worth whatever it takes to get here.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
