Adi Shankara's Nirvanashatkam & Gita contradiction

[rkishan]

Christi,


You mentioned that the Creator and the Created are essentially the same.  I agree with this and there are many statements in Gita and other places that will support this argument.

You seem well versed in Vedanta.  But, I still stick to the point that the "manifested world" that we perceive in the jagrad awasta "waking state" is denied out-right and described as non-existent in Vedanta and in those 4 scriptures. When I mentioned Easwara, I think I might have confused what I was saying with samkhya philosophy.   In Samkhya as you  might know there is no Easwara, but only Purusha and Prakriti. We may also be using the work Prakriti in different meanings.

My statements about the denial of "Creation" (the world that we perceive in jagrad awasta "waking state) in Mandukya were based on Adi Shankara's commentary on Mandukya Upanishad with the Gaudapada's Karika which was translated to English by Swami Nikhilananda of the Ramakrishna Ashram. I should have mentioned Gaudapadas' Karika and Shankara's commentary earlier.  Because my statements were based on that.  Mandukya by itself may not have the statements that I mentioned.  I know that it is very short and profound.  If I understand right, Gaudapada's Karika is widely accepted as the key that unlocks the subtle meanings of Mandukya Upanishad.  Many scholars and even Swami's further rely on Shankara's commentary on top of the karikas to fully understand and comprehend the Upanishads.  So, when I said Mandukya, I automatically assumed the Gaudapada's karika and Shankara's commentary as also part of it.  That was a mistake on my part.  You may be talking about the direct words as described on Mandukya, and as per your direct comprehension of the upanishadic words.

I lack the competency to directly comprehend and understand the vedanta, even though I might understand the meaning of some or many of the of the Sanskrit words.   So, Normally I rely upon Shankara or other qualified teacher's commentary, which is normally further translated or commented by other great teachers.  So, when I said, "Mandukya Upanishad", I assumed the Gaudapada's karika and Adi Shankara's commentary as also part of it.  To me, they are all one.  I believe that Upanishads are cryptic and very few have the qualifications/key to unlock the complete meaning of the words that look simple at the first sight.

"There never was, there never is, and there never will be any Creation", is clearly explained on "The Mandukya Upanishad with Gaudapada's Karika and Shankara's commentary - Translated by Swami Nikhilananda".  In my opinion Swami Nikhilananda has done a great translation in this work.  

I can find the statements about "No creation" from other scriptures that I mentioned also.  I need some time to respond to your post if I have to quote the exact sources.  

This might take some time, but I can respond bit by bit as I find the sources and the statements.  There might be a possibility that we both are in same page, but debating over some semantics.  When I said Prakriti, I strictly meant the world that we perceive on the jagrad awasta or "waking state".  My intellect believes that this world that we perceive in jagrad awasta or "waking state" is similar to the dream world.  Like how the Svapna awastha or "dream world" disappears when we awaken into the state of "jagrad awasta", the "jagrad awasta" is also a dream from which we need to wake up into "Turiya".  If the world of the "jagrad awasta" truly exists, then where is it when we are in Susushpi or the state of "deep sleep"?

Thanks for the participation and the kind responses to my statements and questions.

Regards,
Ram.

[manigma]

quote:Originally posted by rkishan
If the world of the "jagrad awasta" truly exists, then where is it when we are in Susushpi or the state of "deep sleep"?

You should be more concerned about where were you before birth and where you will be after death.

Did you know about Shankara and Krishna in your past life?

And will you remember them in your next birth?

[Christi]

Hi Ram,

 

quote:But, I still stick to the point that the "manifested world" that we perceive in the jagrad awasta "waking state" is denied out-right and described as non-existent in Vedanta and in those 4 scriptures.

I have no doubt that if you want to find evidence to support the idea that the created universe is non-existent, you could find it in the Vedanta scriptures (and in quite a lot of other scriptures also). But likewise, if you wanted to find evidence to support the idea that the created universe is existent, you could also find it in the Vedanta scriptures and other scriptures. But is it a useful exercise? That would be my question. It doesn't affect the nature of the created universe, one way or the other.

What is important to realize is that these scriptures are guidebooks. They often sound a lot like revelation, but actually they are guidebooks. They were not composed for the enlightened, after all the enlightened don't need to hear them; they were composed for spiritual seekers to help them on the path. The four texts that you are referring to are high-level guidebooks. They are concerned with very esoteric aspects of the path, and especially with the attainment of full nirvikalpa samadhi. In full nirvikalpa samadhi, the created universe does not exist. What is more it is seen to have never existed. It is a state of samadhi beyond space and time, so it is beyond the waking, dream and deep sleep states. In the Mandukya Upanishad which you mentioned it is referred to as Turya.

This form of Samadhi is often referred to as the highest attainment in Yoga, and as enlightenment itself. But is it? It is certainly an important stage on the journey, which is why those texts give it so much value. But such an exalted state doesn't last forever. At some point, we come back to this world, and to this life. Then we can see that this creation is an aspect of existence, but it is seen in a new light. As a wave dancing on an infinite ocean of joy, as much an aspect of the divine as the absolute, uncreated Brahman.

Here is a definition of enlightenment given in the main lessons by Yogani:

"The ultimate destination is enlightenment. What is enlightenment? A state of balanced union between our two natures: pure bliss consciousness, and our sensory involvement on this physical earth. That is the definition of yoga, and the destination of all religion."

http://www.aypsite.com/plus/35.html

But the question is, how can you find out the truth of all this for yourself? That's the important thing. It can't be found by reading the scriptures, because they can only be understood on the level of the mind, and the mind is not a sufficient instrument to comprehend reality. The mind is a fabrication of dreams and can only weave more dreams. It is only through spiritual practice that we can go beyond the mind and know the truth for ourselves. Then we can write our own scriptures, and we can choose if we want to write about the world existing, or not existing, or something else entirely. It will depend more on what is useful for others.

All the best,

Christi

[rkishan]

quote:Originally posted by manigma

quote:Originally posted by rkishan
If the world of the "jagrad awasta" truly exists, then where is it when we are in Susushpi or the state of "deep sleep"?

You should be more concerned about where were you before birth and where you will be after death.

Did you know about Shankara and Krishna in your past life?

And will you remember them in your next birth?

Going from jagrad (awake) into swapna (dream) and Sushupthi, (deep sleep) and coming back to jagrad is itself birth and death in many ways.
 
We are being born and die every day when our consciousness moves from one state into the other.

[rkishan]

quote:Originally posted by Christi

I have no doubt that if you want to find evidence to support the idea that the created universe is non-existent, you could find it in the Vedanta scriptures (and in quite a lot of other scriptures also). But likewise, if you wanted to find evidence to support the idea that the created universe is existent, you could also find it in the Vedanta scriptures and other scriptures. But is it a useful exercise? That would be my question. It doesn't affect the nature of the created universe, one way or the other.

I agree.  It may not be an useful exercise.  For that matter, I some times wonder about the usefulness of the jnana marga itself, before one is completely ready for that.

Intellectually, the logic that there was "No creation" and it is similar to the dream, appeals to my mind.  As you pointed out, it is still just at the mind level.

[manigma]

quote:Originally posted by rkishan
Going from jagrad (awake) into swapna (dream) and Sushupthi, (deep sleep) and coming back to jagrad is itself birth and death in many ways.

Yes, but on death you will forget everything permanently.

Your contradictions, your knowledge, your worries... everything.

Even Ram.

The old pond;
A frog jumps in -
Plop!
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Frog_Poem

This is Turiya.

But its not the end!

The baby has yet to open its eyes.

[rkishan]

quote:Originally posted by manigma


Yes, but on death you will forget everything permanently.

Says who? How do you know that I will forget everything permanently on death?  I disagree!!  

PS: Death is another change in the state of consciousness.  We retain our impressions.

[manigma]

quote:Originally posted by rkishan
PS: Death is another change in the state of consciousness.  We retain our impressions.

So what impressions did you retain?

[sagebrush]

http://smallthingseatingbigthings.com/duck/eats/planet/79


food for thought.

hope no one minds a little humor.

[karl]

There is no death and no life. Both are illusions. This is impossible to understand intellectually but you can get a sense of it from the position of dreamless sleep.

During dreamless sleep/death it is impossible to intellectually understand there is any other state than none existence but if you could concieve of that state you would need to become existent.

This is schrodingers cat experiment turned inside out.Understanding the same experiment from the Cat's perspective is far harder to do.

You cannot conceive of nothing, it is beyond imagination when you already appear to be something, as difficult to conceive being something when you are nothing.

There is a mathematical theory that goes -infinity + infinity = 0
that seems simple enough in out world of existence, but throw the idea a bit of a curve and consider that zero may infact be the total of all numbers. All numbers would then be small compared to zero and zero would represent totality.

You can see how this compares to both creator and created, both ends of the same circle.

[rkishan]

quote:Originally posted by manigma

quote:Originally posted by rkishan
PS: Death is another change in the state of consciousness.  We retain our impressions.

So what impressions did you retain?

The one's that I am living now.

[rkishan]

quote:Originally posted by karl

There is no death and no life. Both are illusions. This is impossible to understand intellectually but you can get a sense of it from the position of dreamless sleep.

 

How can you get a sense of anything from the dreamless sleep?  By it's nature, you can't get any sense from dreamless deep sleep.  Even though, it is said that in deep sleep we are in the same state as Turiya, the awareness is missing.

I think the intellect can only get a sense of the concept,  "There is no death and no life. Both are illusions." in the awaken state (jagrad).

Only in the awaken (jagrad) state we are even aware of the existence of the other  states of consciousness (dream, deep sleep).  When the consciousness is in the states other than the awaken state, for instance in dream or deep sleep, it is not even aware of the existence of multiple states of existence.  From the dream world we are not even aware of the existence of jagrad or the awakened state of consciousness. The same goes for the deep sleep also.  This is pointed out by Shankara on his commentary on Mandukya Upanishad.  

So, I think, the 'sense' and the 'practical experience' of illusion must happen in the 'awaken state' (jagrad) to solve this puzzle.

Regards,
Ram

[manigma]

quote:Originally posted by rkishan

quote:Originally posted by manigma

quote:Originally posted by rkishan
PS: Death is another change in the state of consciousness.  We retain our impressions.

So what impressions did you retain?

The one's that I am living now.

Are you sure these are your impressions?

Or do they belong to the one who is dreaming himself to be Ram in this birth, and dreamt to be someone else in the past?

[karl]

quote:Originally posted by rkishan

quote:Originally posted by karl

There is no death and no life. Both are illusions. This is impossible to understand intellectually but you can get a sense of it from the position of dreamless sleep.

 

How can you get a sense of anything from the dreamless sleep?  By it's nature, you can't get any sense from dreamless deep sleep.  Even though, it is said that in deep sleep we are in the same state as Turiya, the awareness is missing.

I think the intellect can only get a sense of the concept,  "There is no death and no life. Both are illusions." in the awaken state (jagrad).

Only in the awaken (jagrad) state we are even aware of the existence of the other  states of consciousness (dream, deep sleep).  When the consciousness is in the states other than the awaken state, for instance in dream or deep sleep, it is not even aware of the existence of multiple states of existence.  From the dream world we are not even aware of the existence of jagrad or the awakened state of consciousness. The same goes for the deep sleep also.  This is pointed out by Shankara on his commentary on Mandukya Upanishad.  

So, I think, the 'sense' and the 'practical experience' of illusion must happen in the 'awaken state' (jagrad) to solve this puzzle.

Regards,
Ram

Both sides of the same coin. From the state of deep sleep we imagine the state of consciousness into being. We oscillate between the two. We must be aware of a conscious state from a state of death/deep sleep otherwise we could not manifest, in the same way as we are aware of a state of none existence from a conscious state.

In either state both are incomprehensible but known to exist. The awakened conscious state only seems more real because you are in that particular state, this is no difference to the deep sleep/death state where all is how it should be.

It is not an intellectual excersise because we are too limited for that. We are not the whole or the part, both and neither. You experience this during meditation, or at least a sense of it where neither one state or another exists, just shifting states in a timeless realm.

[BuddhiHermit]

quote:Originally posted by manigma
There is no contradiction.
Sankra is saying it while being still.
Krishna is saying it while dancing.

Carlson, Christi, - So true: Well said.
I am reminded of the 10 Zen Oxherder pictures.

We start in the marketplace,
We find stillness
We return to the marketplace.

Stillness, Emptiness, are experienced at the beginning of enlightenment. Our true nature is seen as that. Slowly, that is also seen to be this, and Unity follows.

Even so, these are still just generalities, because that is seen to be this, even in the beginning, but differently than later. I have found as a general rule, that the more inclusive the sutra, the more matured the writer.

Namaste