an inquiry on the witness state and emptiness

[miguel]

quote:Gee Osel:

One of the few times I sense your real 2 cents, and now you are running away? Maybe inquire a bit on it. It is an opening, so why run?

Whatever the case may be, I greatly appreciate all efforts you make toward your awakening, as this is also everyone else's awakening. It takes a village, you know, present and accounted for or not.

Carry on!

Yogani,you are wonderful
(...almost tears here...)
Thanks.

[Katrine]

Hi  Ösel Dorje

Please consider staying here I too enjoy your contributions to the forum.

quote:I just meditated. I can't put it into words. It was an experience. Now that I'm writing, I can't say it wasn't a mind, just not my ordinary one I'm writing with now.

Well......that in you which is aware of both of these...and one not being the other.....I am very grateful that you are here

[yogani]

quote:Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

I know Yogani has been implying that I'm espousing ideology that I heard from someone else. That's unfair. I am sharing my experience. This may not be the place to share. Considering. Applying wisdom. Perhaps taking a break from this forum. I wish you all safe passage.

Hi Osel:

I'd like to try and address this.

There is nothing wrong with espousing the teachings of another, as long as we do not present them as a foregone conclusion, or as our own knowledge. Either way, that is espousing ideology, no matter how intimate we may be with the source. It creates a false sense of authority, which isn't good for the writer or the reader.

If the experience is there, it will not be necessary to verify it, because the vibe will be there in every word. The words will be original, not echoing the vocabulary of a third party source. Once the thing is seen, original descriptions will flow like water. That's why realization is nearly always expressed with a mixture of old and new terminology.

In any case, I did not point this out to belittle or offend you. Nor did I do it to one-up you in any way. I pointed it out because it is not real spirituality, and I think you and everyone here deserve better. You are not the first here to project third party knowledge with an air of certain authority, and you will not be the last. Don't get me wrong, it is fine to read some rhetoric in order to get to some real stuff.  We'd like to maximize the real stuff, because that is what we are here for. If it takes a two-by-four to get 2 cents worth of real stuff, maybe it will happen sometimes, though I am not much into Zen.

So the suggestion is to share what is in your deepest heart -- if not here, then somewhere where there is a suitable mirror (everywhere?), because those are the most pregnant opportunities for inquiry. That is what we are looking for, right?

And if you want to share everything you ever heard about spirituality from your teacher or anywhere else, then feel free to do that here also. But share it as what it is (third party knowledge), not as something absolute that we should all accept at face value, because we will not. There is an awareness here that reaches far beyond what I may contribute. Your experience we can easily accept, no matter what it is, but that is only possible when you are coming clean with it.

These forums are experience-based from top to bottom and from beginning to end. That is how the online environment can serve as real satsang, and sometimes much more. This is, after all, a node (connection point) in the vast global web of awakening.

If all you have presented here with authority in the past is based on your direct experience, then I stand corrected and apologize. If not, then let's inquire on it in stillness. It's the least we can do.

The guru is in you.            

[Akasha]

Dear Konchok Ösel Dorje,

i have enjoyed reading your posts here and found your contributions very pleasant, re-assuring and resonant with me, particularly on karma yoga,ego and other stuff.

I have come to agree with you through my very limited experience lately with AYP that even the thought that stems orginially in the mind and beyond has a causal effect,and outwardly ripples into the "outside" world.

it seems like DM can burn off our karma.

perhaps what yogani is saying is that there is a distinction between the intellectual idea karma( done by the mind, and therefore subsumed by ego, and expressed through it.) and grasping it as an idea, and on the other hand the living reality,(experiential truth) & living by karma yoga.. The mere idea could be an even bigger and deeper illusion .

I have'nt read everything you have wrote on this site but everything i have liked so far, i like your empashis on karma, as it chimes with my won. Unless it comes out of relational self-inquiry and this is rooted in inner silence then to most folk this may be an mere intellectual idea, and therefore illussion. So there for most people libable to mislead and lead to more frusstraion and struggle because they are not realized or purified enough to tread the reality of karma, and cause and effect.

But i have had this feeling what you have said is coming from your heart and rooted in experience , particularly inspired by the practices yogani has judiciously outlined here.

AYP appears so far to me to work, if you do the practices.

You are part of that global web of awakening.& AYP is open and acountable.

What yogani maybe suggesting is that most people are'nt ready beyond the intellectual idea of karma( so liable to frustrate or even confuse),selfless action with acute awareness of the deeper causality behind cosmic suffering, and the world out there,at large, inspired by relational self-inquiry that is necessarily rooted in in deep and abiding inner silence. For most people hey are mere concepts. These practices can havce the potential so far to move us much closer it would seem toward it being a living and lovable reality.

At the end of the day, these are just ideas and words,as zen people might say and liable to tie us in greater knots, and illusions of our own making and thinking.

I might doubt that other spirtual brother hoods other than AYP would hacve the same degree of openenss & sharing,non-hierarchical structure ,lack of pedagogy , guru-worship ,overt dogma etc.( such as this person is wiser than the next,i.e moderation- the reader should be the judge of that,and i think it's good to question evrything but if one is engaging with AYP, i suspect that one may  indeed have arrived at a level of moral integrity and spiritual discernment, in virtue of AYP perhaps)

AYP seems to be doing good things for me so far, and that is more than enough for me so far.

[Konchok Ösel Dorje]

I bow to the gurus.

Okay reviewing in fairness. I still don't know what third party knowledge you are referring to Yogani. Pranayama, mantra, mudra: all are third party knowledge. What first hand knowledge exits? Only what one senses personally. What first hand knowledge of ultimate reality can be put into words? None. Is the term "stillness" your invention? This is the village yeah?

Karma. Not invented by the Buddha. Very old notion. Simply means causation. Scientists, from the third party knowledge I have attained and borrowed, also believe in causation, though I don't speak for scientists. In fact, everyone believes in causation, but I don't speak for everyone.

Impermanence. Not invented by any of my teachers or their lineage. It appears to be the nature of all phenomena. Physicists I believe recognize that all matter is decaying. Also everyone believes in impermanence. If you find one who doesn't I would like to buy some real estate near her.

These are just conventional truths. It just so happens they are conventional truths that make you question, where is the happiness? Deal with what's there. They are windows through the illusion.

Looking within the various realms. Hell realm, not there. Animals, too stupid. Gods too happy or too many battles. Where is the ultimate state? Look within, because it is the only refuge from that which decays and suffers.

High yogis are very relaxed, very blissed and not attached. Some yogis go milennia in deep meditation. There have been yogis dug out of the ground still alive. When they wake up, they die.

Stillness is stage one. What's stage two through ten? Luminosity. What does that mean? Wisdom. Patience. Intuition. Spontaneously satisfying the needs of aspirants. Being the blessings.

If one is directly introduced to the nature of mind because one is ripe what happens? One can practice no attachment beyond stillness. No attachment to what? Thoughts. Concepts. What remains? A spark, practice makes a flame, with time, a torch. Wisdom. How do I know that? My practice. I verified.

There is a method to be introduced to mind's nature. It is a simple matter of examining any state, emotion or sense object, whatever is strong and investigate what color, shape, center? Examining the feeling within, seeing clearly nothing, relax, be at ease, stay with that. This is very simple. It is third party knowledge you can put into your own practice.

Now I will meditate and give you my 1 cent.

Body feels hollow like a balloon. The body pulsates with luminous pleasure, I see an aura around every object. With eyes closed I see visions of dancing energies like flames. A tingling sensation all through me and around me like electric dots of air static. A patch peeled back revealing a vast space of moving mind. Sensing a distance between one layer and the next. Seeing vast space through a portal. Very calm. Stable. Remnants of thoughts, fears and desires pulse in and out of mind, as if about to take shape, leaving only a feeling in my torso and head. Continuing to view these feelings, seeing nothing particular, the feeling trickles out into the rest of my body as blissful. As I try to put these into words the overall energy collapses. The less I try to articulate my experience, the more the energy volume grows.

Often in my sitting meditations I will have psychic visions. I my sleep my dreams have become very psychic. I had two nights of dreams that a jet flew into the ocean while I was standing on the wing, the next morning I checked the news and the brazilian flight to france went down.

These are just experiences.

In meditation there are thousands and thousands of different different experiences. These are not what is important.

What is important is to cut the root of ignorance. Seeing mind's nature is cutting the root. Mantra and all these tools are for seeing mind's nature. Once you know what a cup is, you don't say "cup," "this is a cup." Once you know, your ignorance of what a cup is is forever gone.

Mind's nature is the same way. Once you have the experience, that's it. The root is cut. But it doesn't stay cut. Why? Karma. Habits. Desires.

Karma regrows the root. Continuing and repeating many times in mind's nature allows the root to stay cut. Then, what remains is a growing well filling up with wisdom energy.

The more attachment and fixation on concepts and desires, the less wisdom. The more we stay with mind's nature, the less fixations and desires we have, the more wisdom.

Wisdom is power. Wisdom is happiness. Wisdom is bliss. Happiness, bliss, ecstasy, these are low grade states. Wisdom is the blessing and the source of all the rest.

Someone can examine karma and glimpse the ultimate. Another impermanence. Another suffering in all the lifestyles.  Examining, then sensing within, knowing all mysteriously.

BTW, "Multi-object non-self relational inquiry"? Sounds like software. Just teasing. Meep meep. No seriously, just kidding.

Now I'm going to meditate for a long time. What I'm going to do is continuously view my mind, my feelings through my body and mind and all the appearances of my senses, without judging them, thinking I like this or don't like that. Without restraining anything or resisting anything I will just relax and neither allow nor disallow whatever occurs to be as it is. If I sense a tension or a grasping at an idea or a desire, I'll relax and look again at my mind, instead of at the object of idea or desire. I will just continuously look at my mind.

Here's a parting gift of third party knowledge:

The ultimate buddha is the body of wisdom. The ultimate dharma is the nature of the mind. The ultimate sangha is the knower.

Ösel Dorje

[yogani]

Hi Osel:

I have failed to reach you on this matter. It is my fault and I take responsibility for it. It should not have been brought up in the forum in the first place, and for that I apologize.

If you would like clarification on what this is about, I will be happy to provide it in email.

Thanks for your contributions, and all the best!

The guru is in you.

[emc]

Yogani

quote:There is nothing wrong with espousing the teachings of another, as long as we do not present them as a foregone conclusion, or as our own knowledge. Either way, that is espousing ideology, no matter how intimate we may be with the source. It creates a false sense of authority, which isn't good for the writer or the reader.

If the experience is there, it will not be necessary to verify it, because the vibe will be there in every word. The words will be original, not echoing the vocabulary of a third party source. Once the thing is seen, original descriptions will flow like water. That's why realization is nearly always expressed with a mixture of old and new terminology.

I'm definitely feeling touched here, because I know I'm dangerously on deep water in this sense when talking about Bernie. Now, my experience though, is that it's very difficult when realizations only come and go in glimpses so far (longer or shorter). Sometimes the glimpses are only during meditation, sometimes glimpses are longer - as weeks or months when "being on a high" as you sometimes express it. You know where I've been, and what I've fallen back into mind again from... The realizations were my own, but when not anylonger living that realization in the Now... I have no other choice but reporting memories from a mindstate. And everybody on this forum WILL sense that the True frequency is gone. The words will not flow like water (unless they are written with automatic finger movements - typing kriyas so to speak, which happens now and then) and people will assume I'm taking authority by reporting third party information... That is frustrating. Is it better not to share "former realizations" on this forum then, when not BEING in the now and having words flowing like water?

Likewise it's tricky for me when meeting Bernie, because my consciousness is very "movable". I easily tune in to other's levels and see what they see. Bernie always gives hints to me that "I'm where he's at", and actually I am... then... It's so super crystal clear what he speaks of, and when he's joking - often I'm the only one who laughs, and he says smilingly something like "well, someone got that, anyway". He never says many words to me - hardly ever. He knows I'm picking it all up in consciousness anyway... If I go close to him with a mindy question he just waves me away or makes a joke. Then... of course I'm too muddy and fall back into mind after a while, but the knowings of what I've seen/been and experienced is impossible to forget. It's Truth. And when I - from a mindy place - try to communicate those truths... it falls short of course. People will not listen to what I say, but will only pick up from which frequency it is transmitted, and that would be low frequent mind... immediately known by others, particularly those vibrating on a higher level. And I know any realization is not valid in the now if not lived in the now... I've felt how that is working!

I ended up in many Monty Python conversations with Katrine on the Ireland retreat due to this.

K: *expressing deep truth in a teaching kind of way*
emc: I know
K: No, you don't, the mind cannot know.
emc: I know - I've been there, I know mind cannot know. This is a deeper knowing.
K: *sensing the low vibration* No, it's impossible to know - you don't know, it's not something you "get"!
emc: *sigh* Ok, I'm not "getting it" - I know it deep in my heart
K: It's not even a knowing it's BEING IT
emc: I F*CKING KNOW THAT!!!!

LOL! Ridiculous! I can't get around it!

I have also noticed that often newly realized persons who are very busy BEING THAT (not pointing to you Katrine, I have several friends more newly over there!) just can't imagine that they will ever fall back into mind again!!! They don't expect a wobbling state so they are really keen on pointing the above out - making me end up in the pimpom conversations like the one above.

Now there is a possibility that what I've experienced during my highs is not even close to deeper realizations... I have that in account every day! But... my sense of it is that I would in that case not have gotten the "confirmations" I've gotten from you, Yogani, or Bernie, in the way I have if that was the case... I do believe I'm on right track... even though I'm not stable in Living It as That.

[Konchok Ösel Dorje]

My philosophy: Talk about methods not realizations. When it comes to realizations, (s)he who realizes doesn't speak, and (s)he who speaks doesn't realize.

[Ananda]

quote:Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje

 (s)he who realizes doesn't speak, and (s)he who speaks doesn't realize.

i believe that this was written originally in the Tao Te Ching.

and here are some of those who did speak: Jesus; Buddha; Al Imam Ali; Ramakrishna; Mansour El Hallaj; Ibn Arabi....

from our modern days: Gangaji; Adyashanti; Eckhart Tolle...

so to speak or not is not a rule.

and sometimes speaking and celebrating the ... is a source of bhakti for others.

BTW; my experience in Deep meditation some times is similar to yours but now when it's very deep (deeper into the layers) it's different and this is why we disagree.

i mean i feel no boundaries during samadhi or whatever you may call it and i am definitely smthg other than the mind for the mind seems like it dissolved and that is my own experience with the whole thing.

awakened emptiness\\Darkness; but still missing the euphoria and who knows what[]

just my 2 cents[]

[Konchok Ösel Dorje]

Why is this my philosophy? Because I'm a practitioner not a Buddha. Why does this matter? Level. My wisdom fire is a tiny spark. It is not yet a torch the whole world can see. Talking about experiences, realizations and emptiness causes the spark to collapse, and makes it harder to reignite. Just my less than 1 cent.

Of course, this doesn't apply to the guru. The guru is the inspiration. My guru doesn't talk about wisdom experiences. I have them when I am around him and he surprises me by seeing into my mind so easily. It is humbling. This is not child's play. It is very serious. What a buddha can see in other minds takes courage and skill, cultivating minds takes care and extreme caution.

Ösel Dorje

[Konchok Ösel Dorje]

Ananda, when you say mind is dissolved, does the experience cease and become like inanimate space? Or does it continue to be an experience? As long at it is an experience mind is there. My experience is that the universe and beyond is mind. I don't make any distinction between mind/soul. My view is that it's all mind.

[CarsonZi]

Hi Osel...(sorry no dots[])

I haven't contributed to this discussion but I have one question....would you consider the concepts of "mind" and "conciousness" as synonymous?  Thanks.

Love,
Carson[^]

[Konchok Ösel Dorje]

quote:Originally posted by CarsonZi

Hi Osel...(sorry no dots[])

I haven't contributed to this discussion but I have one question....would you consider the concepts of "mind" and "conciousness" as synonymous?  Thanks.

Love,
Carson[^]

No. Consciousness is mind containing objects, thoughts and/or six senses. Mind persists beyond consciousness.

[CarsonZi]

Thank you.

[emc]

quote:Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje


My guru doesn't talk about wisdom experiences. I have them when I am around him and he surprises me by seeing into my mind so easily. It is humbling. This is not child's play. It is very serious. What a buddha can see in other minds takes courage and skill, cultivating minds takes care and extreme caution.

Yes, it's humbling being around a master who reads your mind and heart easily as That... Agree!

I don't agree it's so serious though... on the contrary, I find it to be an enormous child's play... This evening I ended up in car cues for 50 km and 1,5 hours... laughing my guts out... hahahahaaaahaha..... I laughed until I cried and then laughed and cried in turns for 1,5 hours banging my head on the steering wheel. =D hahahaaa. Meeting a mirror in all objects... having the eye/I jokingly, smilingly flirting with 'me' all around. For some reason it's particularly funny when road signs flirt - they are so ALIVE, and seeing other sleeping beings in the other cars with a serious expression on their faces giving a knowing wink to me through that serious expression... hahahaaahahaaa... there is such great hilarious irony in it. It's still a surprise everytime it happens... those glimpses! Those car cues giving time for inquiry are truly a blessing!!!