an inquiry on the witness state and emptiness

[Ananda]

namaste everyone,

this is a recent interaction which happened between me and Yogani (of course Yogani has given me permission once to share any interaction between him and others including myself as long as i point out the source)and i would like to share this with you.

all comments are welcome.

email sent:
 

quote:hi Yogani,

i've been meaning to ask you smthgs about the state of witness and emptiness.

1st are they the same?

2nd concerning emptiness or the witness i think i might've reached this state to a certain extent for i am that infinite space whenever i meditate and the layers go deeper and deeper from time to time during DM.

and when i am during daily activity, i am here now my mind is literally empty\\thought free and i can relate to the witness state whenever i like and mindfulness and sudden moments of lucidity have become smthg which happens in an automatic way every now and then.

but the thing is that i see everything as separate from me; even my body i see as separate when i am in that state; i see the oneness in it all my body and it's surrounding but i see myself as a witness to it all and i don't feel any unity with it.

it feels like it's really illusion which is smthg bound to vanish in time but i don't like that it doesn't seem quite romantic.

the thought comes that when i die my body goes and this awareness stays and that's great.

but to be honest with you even though this is a new state of being which is beautiful to a certain extent it can be very lonely if one keeps on being present in it.

is what i am experiencing smthg close to the first stage of enlightenment or
am i just dissilusioned thinking myself to have reached smthg and it's just a spiritual phase.

and in case it's the real deal, is it supposed to be like this?

thk you for being so generous in your sharing; i know that it can be hard to be answering all those emails but consider me an opportunist like some other readers; i would like to take every advantage i can of interacting with someone like you while you are around.

take care brother.

love,

Ananda

Yogani's reply:

 

quote:Hi Ananda:

Sounds good. :-)

The thing to do is keep going forward. Keep active. Keep engaged in life. Inquire gently into those discomforts you are feeling about the witness state and the rest of life. That is where the doorways are. The divine flow will emerge from there.

Witness and emptiness/void are two aspects of the same thing. Witness is awareness with objects. How could there be a witness with nothing to witness? :-)

Same with consciousness. We use the word all the time, but it only has meaning when there is something to be conscious. Consciousness is awareness being conscious through a body/mind. Beyond the body/mind, it is empty/void.

Emptiness/void is awareness with no objects. Nothing to be aware of. Pure potential, beyond all that exists. The source of all. We can be that, in the body/mind. We are that. It expresses as consciousness and witness through the body/mind, and as everything we see and do.

The question arises, can awareness exist with no vehicle? Is emptiness/void aware? How can we know? That is why the words emptiness and void are used. But miracles are happening all the time, so why not eternal awareness? I'm game for it if you are. At any rate, it is now. So live it...  :-)

The guru is in you.

Yogani

And thk you Yogani for giving me the opportunity to experience what i used to think was out of reach for an average person like me i sincerely wish you a long joyful life for you and your loved ones.

light and love,

Ananda

[christiane]

Thank you for this sharing..
I'm writing this post in a state of deep silence..
and for the first time, I feel I understand, by knowing, not knowledge, what "emptiness" and "witnessing" mean..
This perception you feel, Ananda, of being separate from your body, and surroundings, and that all that is illusion, I am experiencing the very same feeling more and more often..

CUriously, I never felt I don't like it..
rather it feels weird, or disturbing first.. like a feeling of going mad or something like that..
but if you relax and enter this perception that you are stranger to your body, everything around looks as if it was the first time you see it, etc.. if you go in it, in a relaxed state, there's nothing weird or non romantic

And for me, this feeling, I can get back to it by will.. it happens very quickly.. but what I don't like is the feeling I'm going crazy

I'm writing in a moment of lucidity.. maybe tomorrow I won't be that lucid..
I just came back home from a meditation meeting with Mariam Nour..
and I don't know what she did to me, but just by laying her hand on my thigh, I went into a state of ecstacy/emptiness/total let go/ expansion.. to the point I felt for 1 second I was neither male nor female, maybe both.. just this awareness state, with no thoughts, only emptiness..for about 20 minutes or so..

A lot of energy buzzing in the head.. orgasmic feeling in the heart..
waves of ecstacy through the body and spine..
I felt I was making love but beyond the body.. it was........

[Konchok Ösel Dorje]

emptiness is the state of your mind with no object. Emptiness is not a void. It is your mind which is not a void. It is your mind DEvoid of any objects.

A mind is empty when it is not attached and not focused on any objected.

[Ananda]

hello Christy, and thk you for chiming in and sharing your beautiful experiences and we are all crazies here[)] no worries.

concerning seeing things as new that's the greatest part of it, for i am seeing things i never was interested or bothered looking into hell i even see the cockroach as a beautiful miracle everything really is and nothing is the same in any kind of species just look at the leafs of a tree and you won't see the same lining in any hehehe hope this is crazy enough for you[]

love..

[Ananda]

brother konchok, thk you for sharing your views on the matter but according to my own experience with this stuff i say that the mind is limited and emptiness goes far beyond mind you even feel the fear of losing the mind\\ego while you're going deeper and deeper through each layer of infinite space which points out to me the fact that the mind is nothing but a vehicle.

about emptying the mind according to what you say can be done here at will now and happens automatically by itself throughout the day and all you need to achieve this is daily deep meditation and awareness\\mindfulness with the spice of self inquiry.

what is experienced is nice and new but it's starting to feel like home already, except the fact that it still feels lonely and others don't see the world as i do well at least for now[]

in gratitude for the beautiful stuff you are sharing with us in the forums.

love,

Ananda

[Katrine]

Hi Ananda

Thank you so much for sharing the email exchange between yourself and Yogani

You may not experience this in a similar way...but this is how it is felt here:

You say:
 

quote:what is experienced is nice and new but it's starting to feel like home already, except the fact that it still feels lonely and others don't see the world as i do well at least for now

Yogani says:

 

quote:Inquire gently into those discomforts you are feeling about the witness state and the rest of life. That is where the doorways are. The divine flow will emerge from there.

The loneliness......yes, ananda.....I can relate to that very well...I have gone through (and still go through) many such fases.
As much as one enjoys all the "extras" that come with spiritual openings...all the vibrancy....all the "new ways" of perceiving objects and life in general......none of this is really the core of it all. Devine Love.....it's depth is not to fathom......the magnitude of it.....it is ungraspable.....one can only die into it. This takes time to fully accept.

The emptiness.....it takes time to befriend it. It takes time to get used to the fact that what we long most for can only be found in stillness. When i am still....then love can "speak". It is always speaking....but when i am speaking too...... I don't hear it's silent message. So.....the loneliness.....it is what happens when Divine Love is "weaning us" of interest in objects. Any object....even that of "space". And just like a baby.....every time around....I will for a while feel the discomfort of not being "fed" with external stimuli. This will be a returning scenario always. Since the depth of Love is bottomless. Yet....if I can allow the fases of lonliness to be here.....to see how they are connected to the places in life where I still "seek contentment out there".....then gradually...and gently....there will be subtle changes. I have to be be kind to myself and self-pace...and not detach from living....

And gently....(because Devine Love IS gentle with us if we allow it)....the emptiness transforms into emptifullness. What was felt as loneliness is the fullness that happens when one is alone with.......that which I cannot even name. I always cry when coming to this.........

Ok....that was all ananda.....bless you and thanks for being so open



 

[christiane]

quote:Originally posted by Katrine
And gently....(because Devine Love IS gentle with us if we allow it)....the emptiness transforms into emptifullness. What was felt as loneliness is the fullness that happens when one is alone with.......that which I cannot even name. I always cry when coming to this.........

This is also how it feels with me... tons of tears..
neither out of pain, nor joy..
it's a feeling of relief, like "Oh yes... this is where I wana be.. this is it! keep me there please!!!"

I'm writing today and am still "drunk"..
I need nothing, the mind is almost empty..
Just feeling life around..

[Jo-self]

Its possible that when you awake you experience (rather you remember; errr words are so inadequate) the great Aloneness, after all there is only One without a second.  The ego, which invariably is still functional to some degree, will identify with that One, but the translated feeling is instead loneliness and existential dread.  Surrender to Love eventually overcomes limitations and one begins to pray unto others (hard to explain). That's one reason a solid psychology and practice is important, many issues are dredged up or absorbed.  Yogani's advice is spot on.

Anyway, that's how I managed to explain it to myself when I went through partial ego-death (but it was temporary, shucks).

-- jo-self

[Kirtanman]

quote:Originally posted by Katrine


And gently....(because Devine Love IS gentle with us if we allow it)....the emptiness transforms into emptifullness. What was felt as loneliness is the fullness that happens when one is alone with.......that which I cannot even name. I always cry when coming to this.........

Ok....that was all ananda.....bless you and thanks for being so open

Hi Katrine, Ananda & All,

Beautiful conversation, here - thank you, all.



Katrine - your words "I always cry when coming to this" are what moved me to post.

I believe you know of Adyashanti? I'm not sure if you've seen any of his videos; if not - maybe watch one or two on YouTube - and the following anecdote may have even stronger resonance for you (than it may, if you're not familiar with Adya's personality and "style".)

Basically: Adyashanti is a very light-hearted guy; he smiles and laughs a lot -- and makes it clear that he is clearly enjoying himself, essentially, every moment.

So --- light-hearted Adya was in the middle of conducting satsang dialog ... and the topic of lineage came up ... the context being that Adya refers to his teachers (Arvis Justi & Kwong Roshi) often, but doesn't often mentioned lineage.

"Lineage" being the line of enlightened teachers who kept/keep the flame of the dharma (as they say in Zen) burning through hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of years, through some of the darkest, non-enlightenment-oriented times and circumstances of history .... so that it is still burning brightly today .. so that enlightenment is readily available ... more so than ever ... for all who wish to drink from the living waters ... in order to become the overflowing of the living waters enlivening the living waters ... the outpouring of divine loving ....

And, during this one satsang, Adya started to speak ... said, "I ..." ... and then stopped, and got very quiet, for a while (it was one of his longest "silences", longer than you'll see in his videos ... usually they're ten-seconds-ish .... this one was much longer .... maybe a full minute or so).

He opened his eyes, and they were brimming with tears -- the only time I've seen this with Adya, in four years of weekly satsang with him (and tears are running down my cheeks, and dripping onto my forearms, as I type these words ..... and wearing a loopy grin ..... and relishing the knowing of the sweetness ....)

And with his eyes brimming with tears, Adya said (paraphrasing, but almost word-for-word) ...

"I don't often speak of lineage ... and the reason I don't ... is because the gratitude is so overwhelming, it's difficult for me to speak of it without weeping."

And then he smiled, and added softly, and with infinite reverence:

"Just ....... so ..... much ....... gratitude."

Me, too.



It's amazing.

And my eyes are brimming all over again ...... realized teachers, gurus, living masters .... those who stood up for love, in "every place, every time" as Live's song (They Stood Up For Love) says .... who dedicated their lives ... in order that we might have life, and have it "more abundantly" .... that we might become living beings knowing ourselves as eternal being ... living ... unbound  ... no longer trapped in the sad parody of a thought-dream that the ego-mind thinks of as being "alive".

So, yes, the tears are part of it.

A beautiful, sweet, deliciously living part of this wholeness we call home ... this wholeness we are .... the wholeness of AUM.

And the "desert" of the emptiness is a tough one ... until recognizing self as all of it ... as the living loving allness here now.

One.

Complete.

Overflowing.

Home.

The encouraging part:

Every tradition knows of it .... (the desert) ... and depicts it as a desert, as exile, as captivity.

And every tradition teaches of what is beyond the desert --- the garden, paradise, wholeness, home -- This-I-Now.

When the emptiness empties all the way .... it is realized and savored as wholeness.

It is not seen differently ...... it IS different (than the perception of the emptiness).

Reality is whole(ness) in ways that thought-mind can't comprehend (not "yours", not "mine", not "anyone's").

Reality is literally ONE.

Loneliness and emptiness are not only absent -- they are no longer mistakenly perceived to be part of reality.

ONE cannot be lonely, or separate or partial.

"I've" been there .... "I" may be again .... who knows?

Perception of contraction doesn't change reality; reality can't be changed.

Perception of contraction is nothing more than the contraction of perception within the wholeness we each and all are, now -- the ever-expanding wholeness we each and all are becoming, now.

We can dream we are separate.

We cannot be separate; not really.

Both/ONE - Being/Becoming - Ehieh Asher Ehieh (as God-self said to Moses-self, atop Mountain-self) - "I Am That I Will Be".

All I can say is: after a certain point, ego-mind gets increasingly more difficult to believe in, in any way.

This wholeness just IS.

No "big-dealness", no loneliness, no "outside" ..... but in a way that is unspeakably more normal-than-normal .... and complete.

Complete in and as reality - complete in a way partial-mind can *never* get --- it's partial-mind ... it *can't*.

Letting go of partial-mind feels like the most suicidal thing an ego-mind can do.

Apparently, it is.

It feels like emptiness and aloneness at times.

It feels like dying at times.

It feels like crucifixion at times.

When you feel these things, know this:

You've come far .... not just farther than you think .... farther than you can think.

You're almost home.

All the way home.

HOME - in/as Reality.

What does reality feel like?

It's not about what it feels like .... that shifts, as "feels like" always does.

It's about knowing-being the wholeness, the living fulness, always-now.

It feels like ever-living, now.

It feels a lot like resurrection, now-ever, ever-now.

And I'm not over-stating it, as some of you reading this may be living-knowing.

Words, thoughts, partial-mind .... aren't even capable of reaching the understatement of this .... let alone over-statement.

Is it really "all that"?

Infinitely better: I'm really all THIS.

You, too.

Tattvam Asi (You Are That).

If I could sum up the teachings of several millenia of enlightened sages from every tradition, it would be with these words:

They're Not Kidding.

A few years in the desert can easily feel like forty.

To write from where I'm writing this post ..... I'd "do the desert" for a hundred thousand years.

And I'd call it a bargain.

The best I've ever had.

In the Joy of the Reality of the Living Results of AYP,

Kirtanman

[Ananda]

namaste sister Katrine and brother Kirtanman, thank God we only have two Ks in this post nd not three[]

Yogani's advise on inquiry is great and your posts have helped a lot as well, thk you Katrine for the heart and thk you brother Kirtanman for the understanding.

much love,

Ananda

[Katrine]

Hi Kirtanman

Thank you for everything in your post

 

quote:Katrine - your words "I always cry when coming to this" are what moved me to post.

I believe you know of Adyashanti? I'm not sure if you've seen any of his videos; if not - maybe watch one or two on YouTube - and the following anecdote may have even stronger resonance for you (than it may, if you're not familiar with Adya's personality and "style".)

I love Adyashanti....have his books...and have seen many of his videos (not the one you mentioned though)....but it's been a while now....maybe 6 months since I last remembered him.
In reading your post.....the instant you mentioned Adya...the tears started dripping. It was as if I intuitively tasted what you were going to say......not in words...but in impact....

Have been under some pressure regarding the work at the clinic.....it is a brilliant exercise in letting go of results...but it brings up old patterns of financial insecurity. Which is good ........they now have a chance to be dissolved.

 

quote:And my eyes are brimming all over again ...... realized teachers, gurus, living masters .... those who stood up for love, in "every place, every time" as Live's song (They Stood Up For Love) says .... who dedicated their lives ... in order that we might have life, and have it "more abundantly" .... that we might become living beings knowing ourselves as eternal being ... living ... unbound ... no longer trapped in the sad parody of a thought-dream that the ego-mind thinks of as being "alive".

It is such a blessing that you understand about the crying, Kirtanman....
Here......the gratitude and love .....is directed inwards...and also to the inwardness in the ones that have helped so much (this includes friends and foes alike).....I am aware of the fact that calling ......silence....."father-like essence"....sort of lables what can't be labled...since it is formless and empty. It is happening like this anyway....and has to do with deepening and a greater letting go. It is strange...because although i am aware of being One...wholeness.....there is communing with the essence.....not as if being two.....but like there is a clear feeling of being continuously impacted by it.....at the same time that I am aware of the not being separate from it......if that makes sense....

And the crying happens....because I am so grateful....for everything....for the immensity and at the same time simplicity of that which we are elongations of in form......and when in communion with it......someone said here in the forum (can't remember who and where now) that there is no relationship when One....but here....it is felt that it is indeed a relationship......or rather...it is a forever fresh relationalship...and the feeling of awe that comes with it......may I always be a child in this way.....and it is also the experience here that it is possible to be in such a relationalship as human beings too...both inwards and towards each other. Since we are indeed the same Oneness. Form is therefore no hindrance...only the thought that it is. So the fases of loneliness that come and go.....are reflected in life like this.....the greater wholeness inside.....the greater chance of relationalships outside.....because the potential of oneness is never ending....it is just that one has to want it with all of one's heart...and this means saying yes to it when it happens...wheather through another form (which is rare but possible) or in inner realms.

Not many out there are in permanent relationalships.....which is a contradiction to begin with....but still it happens *lol*

 

quote:And the "desert" of the emptiness is a tough one ... until recognizing self as all of it ... as the living loving allness here now.

One.

Complete.

Overflowing.

Home.

Yes....
This poem was written in 2004:

The Desert

I am an open wound
Barren and parchmently arid
No ointment will ever palliate
the raw, empty pain I have married
the pain is untouched
and strikingly desolate,
like an unborn life fully lived

So dry is this land;
the desert I am;
that it's death leaks out of my hand


But...right after this....which is indeed a paradox...that one can leak a desert.........but such is source....it is everywhere...right after this the first experience of love coming out of everything happened......


 

quote:ONE cannot be lonely, or separate or partial.

Well...it is my experience that it can.........but the instant this is allowed.....in this openness it is seen that it is everything else too...then the grip is gone......the laughter happens........and one is back in flow from stillness. It is the swiftness...the immediacy..... of these shifts that indicates that I am at any given time.....

Kirtanman your post was lovely..... and thank you for reminding me of Adya....I watched one of his videos yesterday and that was that

[miguel]

Katrine,your poems are a powerful source of love and wisdom.Sometimes i take a previous fast look,and without undestanding totally and clearly the meaning,i feel the essence of the poem in my hearth.I feel so close to your poems.Thanks!

 

quote:like an unborn life fully lived

[Katrine]

hi Miguel

quote: Katrine,your poems are a powerful source of love and wisdom.Sometimes i take a previous fast look,and without undestanding totally and clearly the meaning,i feel the essence of the poem in my hearth.I feel so close to your poems.Thanks!



"like an unborn life fully lived"

I am very grateful that you experience our essence to be the same Miguel......One Heart

Very grateful.....

[yogani]

Hi Ananda and All:

I took our original interchange from your first post here, expanded my reply, and posted it as a new lesson (#333) called "Dissolving the Witness in Unity" here: http://www.aypsite.com/plus/333.html

Getting into the nitty gritty of self-inquiry a bit.

Enjoy!

The guru is in you.

[CarsonZi]

A wonderful lesson Yogani, thank you.  

quote:Getting rid of thoughts and feelings is not a prerequisite for unity. But transcending our identification with them is.

quote:We can’t own anything, not even a thought.