Non-duality

[Joanna]

Hi there,

Having explored the subject of non-duality in some detail, I have come to the conclusion that its implications can only be ignored at the peril of seekers.

The world as we ordinarily perceive it is an illusion, which is why physics at it quantum and macro levels runs in to so many problems. Time, which no scientist seems to fully understand, is a great example of maya, as it is the means by which our dualistic brains create the concepts of 'before' and 'after', which don't really exist.

Dualistic spiritual practices such as yoga are undoubtably good for the and body, and may help in breaking through to a full understanding of our non-existence, but I doubt they bring self-realisation on their own.

Question: do any forum members know anyone that is self-realised? When  do you guys expect self-realisation to occur? Is Yogani self-realised? If he isn't, given his authorship of several books and undouted authority, what chance do you have?

Think about it...

Or rather don't. Just Be.

[emc]

Hi there Joanna and welcome to the forum!

You have come to the right place to discuss duality and non-duality, methods of practice or no practice! If you use the search engine you will find many topics in forum that might interest you.

Your questions are quite tricky to answer, since it all depends on your definitions. What is a self-realized person to you? Someone who has seen through the illusion in a deep awakening? Someone who lives that Truth in every moment, who stays home in the Now no matter what?

I see realization as a continuum - it's an ever expanding consciousness and the journey never ends. I know lots of people who with or without yoga has reached deep levels of realizations and are very awake/aware. We all have our own paths to Truth... who can judge if anyone is really realized? It depends on what measure you have to define that realization...

If Yogani is self-realized? Well... read the lessons http://www.aypsite.com/plus/MainDirectory.html and see if Truth speaks to you. You will know in your heart whether Truth flows through the text or not... and whether yoga is your way to travel on the path or not... We are all attracted to different directions.

All the best, emc

[Katrine]

Hi Joanna
Welcome to the forum!

quote:Dualistic spiritual practices such as yoga

Yoga  - in itself - is not dualistic....
However - in order to consciously "just be".......in order to naturally stop the striving towards the word; the concept of "enlightenment" (so that we can continuously discover that we are joined.......rather than become One somewhere ahead),.....certain tools are found to be very helpful. These tools have developed through thousands of years. The practise of Yoga is one such tool.

 

quote:Dualistic spiritual practices such as yoga are undoubtably good for the and body, and may help in breaking through to a full understanding of our non-existence

This is wonderful!
If I understand fully my own non-existence......this is no small thing. This is it!
If it dawns that I am non-existent......then I truly don't know who I am - do I?
And not only that - but if I am non-existent; then I won't find out either - will I?


This is tremendously challenging for the mind to accept. So we resist this realization. Because it questions every part of our living. It releases deep fear.....fear of the unknown.....fear of death.......
It can render life totally meaningless......if not understood experiencially....in depth. But when naturally allowed.....this ends up  bringing tremendous relief.....a great unburdening.......an ever widening opening...

In order for the mind not to break under this challenge (because realization is not made through a broken mind.....but an open one)......the digesting of the fact of our non-existence must be allowed in it's intelligently natural tempo. This tempo differ for every human being. It is best left to itself to develop naturally....

And paradoxically - my experience is that the practise of Yoga is actually making it easier for me - in my everyday life -  to not meddle (and as such hinder) - this natural development towards broader realization.

Something in us wants to know itself fully. This momentum is a fact. When not aware of this.....I hinder my own development in a thousand ways. When aware of this I can paradoxically take part in my own realization. By listening. By being quiet when needed. So that something precious within can express itself through different levels of action.

It is my experience that there is a loving presence shining through the emptiness of the non-existence. It is this loving intelligence that is the realization.

It is also my experience that I still resist.

But there has been a shift...as of lately.
I don't so much mind my own resistence.

And this is very freeing....it makes me laugh!

Pardon me for not answering the rest of your questions......Yogani and this forum is a tremendous help. I don't much care what we call that - I love him and the others here; and can't really explain in words the impact his writings and guidence has had on me.

I am glad you are here to find out for yourself

I wish you all the best.

 

 

[Manipura]

Hi Joanna - Welcome to AYP.  Emc's reply was great - I agree with everything she wrote.  The more I read about non-duality, and the more I experience my own gradual awakening, I come to see enlightenment not so much as a big bang, where one moment we're in ignorance and the next we're enlightened.  Rather, I see it as a gradual unfolding of awareness, where the stillness that's cultivated during meditation expands in a way that's unique to every person, depending on their psychology, nervous system, seratonin levels, and so many other factors.  The Presence (or witness, or samadhi, or whatever one calls it) grows and our attention is increasingly drawn toward it, which naturally takes our attention away from the outer illusion, or maya.  

I think all the teachings on How to Become Enlightened are pretty silly, as all you need to do is meditate.  And, if you want, do some other purification exercises.  But all the other instructions are unnecessary and impossible to perform until we've reached the level of awareness where they occur spontaneously.  Like, we're taught to see maya for what it is.  Love your neighbor, even when he's a creep.  Practice daily.  Breathe deeply.  Well, what I've noticed is that when I meditate regularly, and the inner Presence grows, all the stuff I'm instructed to do happens spontaneously.  I naturally become aware of the nature of maya.  I love my creepy neighbor with a love that doesn't even come from me.  I want to meditate regularly.  My breathing spontaneously becomes deeper.  In other words, if you meditate twice daily, all the stuff that we're taught to do will happen spontaneously.  Including our awakening.

If I look at who I was 20 yrs. ago compared to who I am today, I can def. say that I'm 'enlightened' in a relative sense, and I hope that if I live another 20 yrs. I'll be more enlightened still.  But I do think that there are breakthroughs in the evolution of awareness, like when there has been enough purification that the concept of non-duality is actually experienced internally; it's no longer just an idea.  But those moments of epiphany seem to be relatively few, and mostly the evolution toward awakening is a slow, deliberate process.

ps - posted at the same time as Katrine, whose reply I also like.

[brushjw]

Joanna,

Welcome to the AYP support Forums  Some comments:

It is possible to experience nondual reality or enlightement but the tools we use - speech, writing, bhatki and practice - are all based in dualism.  I think ignoring or dismissing the tools - the path - because they are not the goal is putting the cart before the horse.

Quantum physics explains reality at the minute (quantum) level to a high degree of precision.  It's the philosophers who have the problems, not the scientists.

Scientists do not use the term "time"; instead they use "time-space".

Questioning the enlightenment or non-enlightenment of any teacher does not help my practice.  A teacher either has a message which speaks to my heart or an effective practice, or he/she doesn't.  Remaining teachable, open-minded, and consistent in my practice does help my practice.

Best of luck in your chosen path.

Namaste,
Joe

[brother neil]

some interesting stuff to think about.
personally to me science is very imcomplete, including quantam physics, why?  because the unexplainable variable throws everything off.  The unexplainable variable is above science, superior to science.  scientifically my sister was to die before six weeks of age.  she was supposed to die many more times in her life and when she was pregnant they told her to choose, her life or the babies.  she has had much of the same doctors her whole life and they could not fathom how she had no complications with her childbirth and the fact that for some reason her health improved in the later stages of pregnancy even though she eats garbage.  

the unexplainable variable/God is above duality.  since existence exists then it does not have an opposite.  I see existence, I am in existence.  existence equals everything, existence is a miracle therefore everything is a miracle, if we see life like that for every moment then I think we would be enlightened.  

who is enlightened?  I think we all have been at one moment or another in our lives, my goal, to expand those moments into a larger part of my life.  I think forest gump was pretty enlightened too  Is yogani?  if a "crazy" person tells you which street to take or which street to not take would that make his/her words any more true or untrue then if an enlightened person gave the same advice, my point is that if the words ring true then is the source they came from important?  In saying that though I do believe that being around people who are at peace can be a great influence and I would tend to gravitate towards a shining example, but never discredit the wisdom of a homeless man, next time you see one feed them and ask them for a piece of wisdome and see what they say.  

I have a friend who deals in quantam physics, one challenge that quantam physics faces is that things react differently when being observed, that and the unexplainable variable throws the whole of quantam physics for a loop.  

illusion, what is an illusion?  take a child who owns a dog.  sit the child by the side of the road and put the dog in the middle.  now run over the dog and then watch the childs reaction, when the child cries, to me that is not an illusion, imho, only to the cold hearted could they say that the child is seeing an illusion.  Maybe incomplete is a better word then illusion.  Maybe we tend to see with incomplete vision, example is that we dont all see chakras but they are there, also other energies and other dimensions that not all of us see.  

my wish for my life, to live in the now, to worry about someone or something enough to take action, to accept what is before me, and forget worrying about my next life and incarnation, to cry when I have to and laugh when I can, to love the best I know how
just thoughts and ramblings
neil

[emc]

quote:illusion, what is an illusion? take a child who owns a dog. sit the child by the side of the road and put the dog in the middle. now run over the dog and then watch the childs reaction, when the child cries, to me that is not an illusion, imho, only to the cold hearted could they say that the child is seeing an illusion.

Tubeseeker, remember the metaphore with life/existence being a film/illusion and reality being the screen enabling us to see the film? The film exists, but it's not for real, is it? What you described would just be a horror movie... but it's still just a movie on the screen... And we'd like better movies sometimes. But the truth is... It's not us running the show... Stillness is, always has, and always will... so one might wonder then, why IT is so fond of horror movies... I have an idea of my own: Because it's such a HUGE halabaloo ride to Come Home again! If we didn't believe in those horror movies from the start it wouldn't be such a hoot to find Real Truth and Love again. There would be no huge Buddha laughs when we realized it was all a JOKE from the start - and we believed it so deeply and took it so seriously! We need the contrast to fully experience the Love, Joy, Compassion, Truth and ...

[brother neil]

I would say the film is real.   The movie screen may be needed for the film to  be seen but does that mean that if projected into infinite space the film is not there, I would say it is there but not seen.  Yes we exists only because the unexplainable variable, but our existence is real in my opinion.  buhda imho, saw more of reality and with a clearer eye, but would he say the people he was talking to were not real, that people suffering was not real?  I believe he said some people suffer too much and some suffer too little
just thoughts
Neil

[Anthem]

Hi Joanna and welcome to the AYP forum,[]

 

quote:Dualistic spiritual practices such as yoga are undoubtably good for the and body, and may help in breaking through to a full understanding of our non-existence, but I doubt they bring self-realisation on their own.

Yoga practices, slowly over time, release energy we have invested in thoughts. As a result, the thoughts no longer attract our attention and we no longer spend as much time experiencing the thoughts and the corresponding emotional reactions to the thoughts. Once our attention is freed from going endlessly from thought to thought and experiencing the corresponding emotions, our attention slowly resides more and more in the here and now. As we reside more in the here and now, our understanding of reality and everything in it (us) expands and deepens, our true nature is known because the mind is no longer constantly distracted into looking at every thought that comes along.

So does yoga bring about self-realization? Yes eventually. There is no breaking through, there is simply residing with what Is for long enough to see it for yourself.
 

quote: Question: do any forum members know anyone that is self-realised?

The best we could do is speculate about how self-realized someone is, you can only know for yourself. As the others point out, you know the truth when you hear it, so if someone is sharing a lot of truth, you'll tend to stick around for a while if you are an earnest seeker.
 

quote:When do you guys expect self-realisation to occur?

It can only occur now.

 

quote:Is Yogani self-realised? If he isn't, given his authorship of several books and undouted authority, what chance do you have?

Yogani shares a lot of truth, but it isn't about him, it is about our own dedicated effort to free ourselves. Consistent daily effort in the direction we want to go, from there to here (self-realization), will yield the result once the process has completed itself enough for the sun of non-existence to shine out between the clouds of thought.

[YogaIsLife]

quote:my wish for my life, to live in the now, to worry about someone or something enough to take action, to accept what is before me, and forget worrying about my next life and incarnation, to cry when I have to and laugh when I can, to love the best I know how

Hi Neil,

Your "ramblings" were very inspiring. Thank you!

I tend to agree with you. Too much "philosophy" into what's real or not, or believing some pain is not real because some guru told us, can lead to inaction and cold heartedness. I don't think this is the way of the truly wise. So, before we find out for yourself that the world is really an ilussion (is it really?) let's not start by negating our own feelings or not act on them. I think that would be a bad (unnatural) first step.

[brother neil]

yogaislife,
you are very welcome.  My goal in life it to be like forest gump, he is my hero
my best to you
seeker

[Joanna]

Hello,

Thanks for your comments those who posted.

Just a few points:

 - Self-realisation is an all or nothing state - you either are or you aren't. Just like you can't be 'half born' you've either reached the state of self-realisation or you haven't. Please, I'd be keen to hear from anyone who has reached this state, or thinks they will any time in the next 30 years.

- Science does not understand reality completely, and cannot prove what we see is anything more than an illusion. Indeed, some string theorist are coming to the view that what we perceive as the physical world may be no more than an illusion.

- Everything that happens to you has been pre-determined, including your interest in yoga. If you look back at any event in your life, you can always refer back to a prior event that caused it. We are indeed 'being lived'.

- The reason I was interested in knowing if Yogani has reached self-realisation is that a lot of forum members seem to have developed a fawning, sycophantic attitue to him, which I suspect he finds a little worrying himself, whether he is self-realised or not.

Joanna

[YogaIsLife]

Hi Joanna,

Are you self-realised? If yes, was it a sudden awakening? What took you there, what was the trigger? If not, do you believe you will be in the next 30 years and how? And also, if not, how do you know self-realisation is an all or nothing state?

Well, me, I am not self-realised But I do recall diverse periods in my life where I had glimpses of that "something else". Well I had my normal moments of joy, sorrow, desperation etc. but also some others moments touching the unspeakable, feeling energy movements, etc., etc. Ordinary and what you migth call some "transcendental experiences", nothing amazing but it does tell me one thing: there is more to life than this that I see. I sense something else. I also know of a deeper power in my. Well, these are all feelings I have, glimpses of an immense force that moves through me.

So, for me, self-realisation seems not to be an all or nothing state, I can get glimpses of it, maybe a bit similar to people who take drugs can merge into the infinite althought they come back to the "real world". It seems to me to be a thing you can cultivate. You can work towards your self-realisation, very much like you can work towards being a good runner. It is all developing skills dormant in you. This are my views anyway! For the moment at least...wait until I become self-realized!! LOL

[brother neil]

self realization being an all or nothing state, do you make this statement from self realization or are you passing on your theory gained from reading or discussing with someone else?  This is how I see self realization.

my father was not around when I was a child (yeah that explains a lot )  I had a lot of hatred in my heart for him.  One day I became very upset with him, I could not stand and I could not accept who he was and I dont know if I had ever hated him more.  This was before my "yoga" practice had much theory involved.  anyways I was so upset that I went and sat down, only the second time in my life had I sat in a mediative posture.  I sat for quite a while but not sure how long.  For some reason years of hate and anger somehow changed.  There was not a vision or anything like that but my hatred turned to compasion and understanding.  Why, How, what was it I dont know but what I do know is that change has stayed with me and transformed our relationship.  I believe I became "self realized" on that one aspect of my life, I firmly believe that what happened that day can happen to me in other aspects of my life and expand my limited acceptance.  

I do believe that many of us are self realized in many aspects of our lives.  a child falls down and gets hurt, the mother runs out and comforts the child, assures the child everything will be ok, after a few moments goes and gets a wash cloth and cleans the wound and after that puts a bandage on it.  I call that a moment of being self realized, maybe I am wrong and some guru can correct my understanding but untill then I will go based more on what I have experienced and keep what I read as a theory.  THen once I experience greater truths in my life I can seperate my theories based on my readings and thoughts, and my actual experiences.  

ask any parent how they felt the first moment they held their child, "oh my god I cannot believe that we created this, how wonderful, look I think she has my nose and your mouth" but somehow that self realization fades and becomes occupied by thoughts, instead of being in the constant state of awe and wonder.  Every moment is a miracle is it not?

maybe if we understood that we are closer to self realization then we think we are, it might be easier to attain self realization for a longer period of time or maybe permanantly, but then again maybe I am just crazy.  actually I believe that is another area where I feel I am self realized for I know I am crazy[] might as well enjoy it

thoughts and ramblings
My best to you
seeker/neil

[emc]

Hi Joanna,

- Self-realisation is an all or nothing state - you either are or you aren't. Just like you can't be 'half born' you've either reached the state of self-realisation or you haven't. Please, I'd be keen to hear from anyone who has reached this state, or thinks they will any time in the next 30 years.

What is your actual question beneith? What would you like to ask someone who is deeply realized?

Actually, there was never any person born on this earth, nor has anybody died. Everything we call "person" is fake identity. So there's actually no "person" ever having been realized either. The consciousness realizes itself to NOT be a person who was born and is going to die... that's what it's all about...

- Everything that happens to you has been pre-determined, including your interest in yoga. If you look back at any event in your life, you can always refer back to a prior event that caused it. We are indeed 'being lived'.

Yes, life lives itself so intelligently, without us having to do anything at all. "I" who think I live "my life" is actually doing nothing at all...


- The reason I was interested in knowing if Yogani has reached self-realisation is that a lot of forum members seem to have developed a fawning, sycophantic attitue to him, which I suspect he finds a little worrying himself, whether he is self-realised or not.

What I have come to learn is that the more I (as consciousness) awake, the deeper I realize what this is all about, the less I worry about other's business. I see that everything is happening exactly as it should - just as you stated above - it's all living itself without effort in a very intelligent way no matter what I may THINK about it! If I stop thinking about it - it lives itself anyway!!! That's the precious no-mind state... and "I don't know"-state... or "living in the Now"-state without any concerns for the future. Total grace to see that everybody are doing their absolute best from the state of awareness they are currently in - and that is also raising compassion of unmeasurable amounts... There are no more worries or thoughts about how things "should be". That would cause stress and tension in the body-mind system and close down the openness and expansion.

Questions and thoughts are what brings us forward as seekers, so thank you for asking all your questions! It gives inspiration and sparks us all! When the seeker is dead - there are no more questions...