In the sky of your mind you are the sun.

[yogibear]

Hi Christi,

I was reading this article from Jim and his karma, (good article, thanks, Jim) and this guy Stuart Sovatsky has a nice way of putting things that relates to what we are talking about:

FIFTH DECADE   The desire-self identity matures toward the immortal soul-self identity;

This is how I conceive of it, a maturation and expansion of the ego, as it jettisons false identification after false identification. But this immortal soul-self identity is an experience and realization, not a mental self concept.

SABIJA-SAMADHI and NIRBIJA-SAMADHI: fully matured origin-consciousness with, and then without, future waverings emerge;

REPEAT 25 TO 50 INCARNATIONS: Divya sharira: exceedingly rare full maturation of the ensouled body as "divine light body" and moksha: complete maturation of all soul-body potentials; ultimate liberation into eternal being-in-time.

This is what I am refering to when I say that 'ultimately' is the key word. The bold is my addition.

I don't think the dissolving of the salt doll (ego ,an awareness of awareness unit, formed awareness or attention) into the ocean(awareness, formless attention), to use Ramakrishna's analogy, is something that happens any time soon. I.e. the ego, you, me, is around for a long, long time.

Just my speculation from my present time limited yb perspective.

Best, yb.

[yogibear]

Hi Christi,

The maps are there if you look for them! And the methods, and practices. I do them every day. Don’t forget, he didn’t want you to jump from NY to LA, he wanted you to wake up in LA, which is where you fell asleep, and started dreaming you were in NY. He doesn’t give you the tools to fly from NY to LA, but he does give you the tools to wake up in your own bed.

In fact, while I was practicing at this time, I read Krisnamurti's book, Think on These Things (I call it "Krishnamurti for Idiots" ), in which he was talking to children at his school. He mentioned two methods, which I think are pretty common. One was to simply sit quietly and watch your thought stream as if you were sitting on the bank of a river. The second was to listen to the sounds between the sounds. He basically said, "See what happens." And that was about it.

I need more than that. Call me lazy. But I need a good conceptualization of what I am trying to accomplish and how to go about it.

Yogani provides this. Krishnamurti does not, imo. Which is why I am not a big fan.

I have thought that I should reread something of his in present time(it has been about 30 years) since I would probably understand him more, except that I already have a pile of unread books and right now, I am really interested in understanding the Self Inquiry book, which jumped to the fromt of the line.

If he had wanted to say that, I think he would have said that “we are all the end product of everything we have ever done and everything we have ever thought”, which is true, but is not the same as saying “the observer is the observed”. Krishnamurti was quite capable of speaking directly, and the “observer is the observed” stuff sounds very much like the merging of the witness and the witnessed which happens in the unification stage beyond absorption in the witness self.

I understand your interpretation.

I’m glad you found this in the Self-inquiry book, because it clearly shows that the witness self is not the highest stage in yoga, not the ultimate self, for if it were, then why engage in self-inquiry once the witness self is the established state of consciousness?

I get the impression from Yogani that the witness is an evolving state and not an exclusively static state. It has its impure and pure states. The witness acts. The more you disidentify with the mind, the more the witness is revealed. And the primary act of the witness is discrimination between "I" and "not I". Once this is achieved it can expand into formless awareness.

In my own experience there is a movement of consciousness from the silence of the witness self towards the supreme Self, and this movement I can only describe as ecstatic love. It is like a flow, and everything is taken up in it. It happens to me when I am in (samvikalpa) samadhi, and I contemplate the nature of the absolute self. When I am taken up in that flow I loose consciousness of the body and the mind. But I am still conscious of myself as the flow of ecstatic love towards the supreme Self, the Beloved. Occasionally I begin to loose the identification of myself as the flow... but then everything starts to get a bit Bright, for want of a better word. Sometimes there is another flow, a flow from the supreme Self towards the witness self, which is also a flow of love, and this is Grace.

Are you in this intensely alive state I described all the time or better? I can only relate what you are saying to my one experience. When you say you are in Samadhi I conceive that you are in some exalted state. When you talk about being in Samadhi, are you in this concentrated condition I have been describing?

In normal daily life, my awareness was expanded and included simultaneous reception of all my sense perceptions and thoughts rather than the focused attention I experience now, which excludes alot of sensory input.  

Right now my goal to achieve and maintain this type of consciousness again on a permanent basis, i.e., to make it my normal. I.e., intense, concentrated presence and the ability to go into ever deeper states of meditation on a regular basis.

Is that how it is for you?

I would say, yes, it is at first...(merging with the witness), and then it becomes ecstatic love (the pouring of the relative/ witness self into the supreme consciousness), and ultimately it is outpouring divine love (the pouring of our true self into the world as love).

I don’t know that last one first hand, so I am taking Yogani’s word on it.

I understand. Yogi Ramacharaka calls it the "Expansion of the Self."

So you could conceptualize the progression as person identified self to witness self to Supreme Self.

Best, yb.

[yogibear]

From the book Self Inquiry by Yogani:

"All spiritual paths are about revealing our "I," and
becoming it in its native unconditioned state. All
spiritual paths are for answering the question "Who am
I?" and consciously becoming That.

The witness alive in us is known to
be that ever-awake sense of “I” during waking,
dreaming and deep sleep stages of awareness.

With direct experience through deep meditation,
self-inquiry, and other integrated practices, we can go
from the philosophy/theory of inner silence to the
reality of it."

[yogibear]

quote:Yogani wrote:

Keep in mind that inner silence is not on the level
of the curious mind or the intellect. It is beyond all
thinking and philosophy. In that sense the call to do
nothing is valid. In order to do that we must do
something.

From the book Self Inquiry by Yogani:

"It cannot be understood by the intellect, but the intellect can make the necessary choices along the way.

The role of self-inquiry in this is to let it go and allow it to proceed.

The witness never does anything, even while it is doing everything."

[yogibear]

From the book Self Inquiry by Yogani:

The witness is awareness
independent of all objects. Yet, the witness does coexist
with objects, as anyone who engages in daily deep
meditation for a while knows. So we can try and
describe it, even though it is who we are beyond all
descriptions. It is a riddle.

[Christi]

Hi YB

 

quote:”Ultimately is the key word here....
I don't think the dissolving of the salt doll (ego, an awareness of awareness unit, formed awareness or attention) into the ocean (awareness, formless attention), to use Ramakrishna's analogy, is something that happens any time soon. I.e. the ego, you, me, is around for a long, long time.”

I think there can be a danger in making enlightenment into something that is always far away. Especially once the witness is cultivated and awareness is established in silence (Samadhi). See Yogani on this subject here:

http://www.aypsite.com/plus/120.html

 

quote:
“I get the impression from Yogani that the witness is an evolving state and not an exclusively static state. It has its impure and pure states. The witness acts. The more you disidentify with the mind, the more the witness is revealed. And the primary act of the witness is discrimination between "I" and "not I". Once this is achieved it can expand into formless awareness.”

Yes I would agree, it does seem like that. We don’t end up as kind of passive zombies once we become established in the witness state. Well, some people do, but I think they have missed the point somewhere along the way. Awareness is dynamic as well as passive, it flows and acts. I once heard that before enlightenment the Self is controlled exclusively by the mind, and afterwards, the mind becomes a tool (one among many) for the Self. Activity is still happening, but the relationship has changed. The slave becomes the master (king of kings). Something can only be a tool for something else that is able to wield a tool (is capable of action).


 

quote:“Are you in this intensely alive state I described all the time or better?”

No, I fluctuate between different states of awareness.

 By the way, I think the state you described would be what Adyashanti would call an awakening. It is like a preview of enlightenment that doesn’t last. He talks a fair bit on how to move from awakening experiences to final enlightenment. And then just to prove that he is a true Zen master, he goes on to describe the process of transformation beyond final enlightenment.

quote:“When you say you are in Samadhi I conceive that you are in some exalted state. When you talk about being in Samadhi, are you in this concentrated condition I have been describing?”

Samadhi is a bit difficult to describe, it’s a bit of a broad palate. Yes, I would call the condition you described above as Samadhi (sahaja (spontaneous) Samadhi). It is one of those words that has been ascribed so many meanings that it starts to become more confusing than useful. I have noticed that Yogani generally avoids it.

I have seen it translated as “concentration”, which means that anyone reading a newspaper is in Samadhi. I have also seen it translated as: The highest stage of yogic development, or full enlightenment. So maybe it is something in between those two.

For me, Samadhi is an exalted state of awareness, in which awareness is established, or rested, in silence and stillness. The best way I can describe it, is if you first imagine that you are floating on the surface of the ocean. The sunlight is a bit too strong (contracted ego sense), and the waves (thoughts/ emotions) keep bashing you in the face. Then imagine that you dive down under the water. At first it is a bit scary (laya Samadhi) because you have forgotten that you can breathe underwater (exist in silence). Then gradually you realize that you can breathe underwater, and everything is fine (samvikalpa/ sambija Samadhi). The sunlight is still there, but it is diffused through the water and doesn’t disturb the beauty and peace. You can still see the waves rising and falling above you, but they don’t touch you. And what is even more remarkable is that you can now move vertically (etheric, astral, causal, atmic) as well as horizontally (physical, emotional, mental). The ecstatic love I mentioned earlier is a movement of consciousness vertically (diving down/ rising up) towards the blissful realms.

quote:“Right now my goal to achieve and maintain this type of consciousness again on a permanent basis, i.e., to make it my normal. I.e., intense, concentrated presence and the ability to go into ever-deeper states of meditation on a regular basis.

Is that how it is for you?”

Actually, what I’d really like (just in case God is listening) is a gentle, innocent, all-embracing presence that is capable of recognizing the Divine in the eyes of everyone I meet, and seeing God in all things. And an opportunity to serve all as That. Oh yea, and whilst I’m making my Christmas list, I’d like the kind of love that can illuminate whole civilizations from within.

Do we get everything we want?


The ever-deeper states of meditation sounds like a great way to move forward.

Christi

[emc]

Christi,

That was truly a beautiful and earnest post with a pleasant softness to it! Thank you!

/emc

[Wolfgang]

quote:Originally posted by emc

Christi,

That was truly a beautiful and earnest post with a pleasant softness to it! Thank you!

/emc

Yep, it is very nice
and you (emc) reached the magical postnumber 777

[VIL]

Christi, I have enjoyed your post, but would like to comment on this generally held misconception and want you to know that it is not directed at you, but this erroneous concept:

quote:Christi: I have seen it translated as “concentration”, which means that anyone reading a newspaper is in Samadhi.

Samadhi has nothing to do with the intellect and even if one is reading a newspaper and thoughts are not perceived, on a conscious level, they are still thinking.  There is a reason that meditation is practiced to go beyond the mind by way of internal transformation/perception.

Let's not confuse Samadhi with the mind and make it some mundane thing.  The reason that the mind becomes a tool is that the person has died of this world by way of endogenously breaking this connection with nature or severing the cord of the circadian rhythm via the subtle heart.  This is touched upon in the Rig Veda, as you can see where it is bolded:

"Creation Hymm from the Rig Veda

Not even nothing existed then
No air yet, nor a heaven.
Who encased and kept it where?
Was water in the darkness there?
Neither deathlessness nor decay
No, nor the rhythm of night and day:
 
The self-existent, with breath sans air:
That, and that alone was there.
Darkness was in darkness found
Like light-less water all around.
One emerged, with nothing on

It was from heat that this was born.
Into it, Desire, its way did find...: "

http://www.princeton.edu/~howarth/573/rig-veda.html

Take care:



VIL

[yogibear]

Hi Christi,

 

quote:Christi wrote:

I think there can be a danger in making enlightenment into something that is always far away. Especially once the witness is cultivated and awareness is established in silence (Samadhi). See Yogani on this subject here:

 

quote:Yogani wrote in Lesson 120:

I have been doing all this writing here for months. Why? Well, it is
a good thing that needs to be done for sure. Many agree with that.
From my perspective, it is going out with my inner silence into many
lives, and that is helping me expand tremendously inside. The more I
give away, the more I am filling up with ecstatic bliss. I am a very
selfish person doing all this transmission of knowledge. Yet, my self
is becoming more and more in everyone. Your joy is my joy. You can do
the same thing in your life. Do your sitting practices, however much
and whatever kind you find is good for you, and then go do something
good for someone. That is rising enlightenment.....

Getting enlightenment is giving it away. Getting enlightenment is
letting it go.

This is how I think of it.


 

quote:Christi wrote:

I think there can be a danger in making enlightenment into something that is always far away. Especially once the witness is cultivated and awareness is established in silence (Samadhi).

 

quote:Yogani wrote in Lesson 120:

The future isn't real. Today is real. It is misery to want a thing in
the future, keeping it out there, out of reach. The future never
comes. It is maya (illusion). On the other hand, it is bliss to want
what we are having today that this good, and tasting it being more
already tomorrow. That is why I have said, "Do something nice for
someone today." That is more enlightenment than we can find anywhere
in our imagination of the future. If there is enlightenment, it is to
be found today. It is a fine point.

I understand this. All I am saying is that the ego, yourself is the very last thing to go. When nirvikalpa samadhi is attained depends on karma which is perhaps impossible to predict.


 

quote:Christi wrote:

I fluctuate between different states of awareness.

quote:


I am Happy for you.

 

quote:Christi wrote:

By the way, I think the state you described would be what Adyashanti would call an awakening.

That is how I have thought of it, too. Birth is perhaps more what I have thought, but yes, a small degree of awakeneing, a preview of coming attractions.

John 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 3:8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

quote:Christi wrote:

 For me, Samadhi is an exalted state of awareness, in which awareness is established, or rested, in silence and stillness.

I am getting the concept of it, not having ever experienced it my self.

 

Christi wrote:

Actually, what I’d really like (just in case God is listening) is a gentle, innocent, all-embracing presence that is capable of recognizing the Divine in the eyes of everyone I meet, and seeing God in all things. And an opportunity to serve all as That.

 

I remember my teacher saying one time that this is how it was for him. Once we were standing out side his yoga school and a retarded man happened by. He approached us, stepped close to my teacher, and put his hand on my teacher's sternum. The man stood there laughing softly, looking at him for about 15 seconds before taking his hand off and walking away. My teacher looked at me, shrugged his shoulders, and we continued our conversation as if nothing had happened.

To me, there was a lot of non-verbal conversation going on.

 

Christi wrote:

....The ever-deeper states of meditation sounds like a great way to move forward.

Agreed!

Best, yb.

Hi emc and Wolfgang,

One time I went to a puppy dog class and it was so fun. There were all kinds of breeds there, big, small, etc. A wide variety. It was hilarious to watch perhaps 15 puppies rollicking and gamboling about in the room with each other while all the owners sat around the edge. I asked the leader of the class why she let the puppies play like this for the first 10-15 minutes. She said that it socialized the dogs and made the more aggressive ones less aggressive and the less aggressive ones more aggressive. It balanced them out. It created a healthy social expression when they would meet other dogs on the street.

Woof, woof.

Best, yb.  

[yogibear]

Commentary on 'Light on the Path' from the book Advanced Course in Yogi Philosophy by Yogi Ramacharaka:

'Kill out the sense of separateness.'

The sense of separateness that causes us to feel as if we were made of different material from our fellow men and women--that makes us feel self-righteous--that makes us thank God that we are different from, and better than, other men--is error, and arises from the relative point of view. The advanced occultist knows that we are all parts of the One Life--varying only as we have unfolded so as to allow the higher parts of our nature to manifest through us.

The lowly brother is but as we were once, and he will some day occupy the same position that we now do. And both he and we will surely mount to still greater heights--and if he learns his lessons better than do we, he may outstrip us in development.

And besides this, we are bound up with the lives of every other man and woman. We participate in the conditions which contribute to their sin and shame. We allow to exist in our civilization conditions and environments which contribure largely to crime and misery. Every mouthful we eat--every garment we wear--every dollar we earn--has had some connection with other people, and their lives and ours are intermingled--we touch all mankind at thousnds of points.

The law of cause and effect makes close companions of persons apparently as far apart as the poles. What we call sin is often the result of ignorance and misdirected energy--if we were in exactly the same position as those who do wrong--with the same temperament, training, environment, and opportunity--would we do so very much better than they?

All life is on the Path--we are all advancing slowly--often slipping back two feet for every three we advance, but still registering a net advance of one foot. And all are really trying to do the best they can, although often the appearances are very much against them.

None of us are so very good or perfect--then why should we be so ready to condemn? Let us lend a helping hand whenever we can, but let us not say, "I am holier than thou."

Let us remember the precept of the great Master who warned to cast the first stone only when we are free from sin ourselves. Let us avoid the sense of separateness in the relative sense, for it is a snare and a delusion and the parent of nearly all error."

[Christi]

Hi emc

 

quote:Christi,

That was truly a beautiful and earnest post with a pleasant softness to it! Thank you!

/emc

I am glad you liked it. I really enjoy writing posts in the forum sometimes, especially when the topic is so relevant.

That was actually my fourth attempt to write that post. The three previous times I had contemplated what to write, but had gone into a trance state and was unable to type, so had to leave it to another day.

If I stop posting altogether, you'll know what has happened to me.  

Christi

[Christi]

Hi Yb,

 

quote:
Yb wrote:
Hi emc and Wolfgang,

One time I went to a puppy dog class and it was so fun. There were all kinds of breeds there, big, small, etc. A wide variety. It was hilarious to watch perhaps 15 puppies rollicking and gamboling about in the room with each other while all the owners sat around the edge. I asked the leader of the class why she let the puppies play like this for the first 10-15 minutes. She said that it socialized the dogs and made the more aggressive ones less aggressive and the less aggressive ones more aggressive. It balanced them out. It created a healthy social expression when they would meet other dogs on the street.

Woof, woof.  

Best, yb.

What a lovely and somehow pertinent story.

It reminds me of a time when I had the good fortune to watch my daughters kindergarten teacher at work with the kids. I noticed how she would be stern and forceful with children who had a tendency to bully other kids and didn't think about others, but with children who were shy and timid, she would be gentle and kind. When I talked with the children later when they came round to visit, I noticed how the aggressive bullying kids thought the teacher was mean and nasty, but the timid shy kids thought she was gentle and sweet.

Actually she was neither; she was simply acting out of love, and was doing her best to help each individual child to develop. It was very beautiful to watch her.

What was even more interesting was that when I talked to the parents, they often held the same view as their own child. The parents of aggressive children thought the teacher was mean and nasty, and the parents of the shy timid children, thought the teacher was sweet and gentle.

When we are dreaming, everything is coloured by the dream. We miss the whole picture, and in doing so, we miss everything.

Christi

[yogibear]

Hi Christi,

Thanks for the story. A good a parallel.

 

quote:Christi wrote:

When we are dreaming, everything is coloured by the dream. We miss the whole picture, and in doing so, we miss everything.....When I talked with the children later when they came round to visit, I noticed how the aggressive bullying kids thought the teacher was mean and nasty, but the timid shy kids thought she was gentle and sweet.

Funny.

And in this respect, one level of interpretating Krishnamurti's statement, "The observer is the observed" is this. Another is the one you put forward in your previous post.

From commentary on 'Light on the Path' in the book Advanced Course in Yogi Philosophy by Yogi Ramacharaka:

"We are all little scholars in life's great kindergarten."  

The following quote doesn't have any thing to do with the above. It is what I was going to post before I read yours.

From the book Self Inquiry by Yogani:

"Just recognize that self-inquiry....is about going
beyond the machinations of the mind with simple
questions and automatic answers that rise in stillness –
easily favoring the stillness within."

Best, yb.

[VIL]

quote:Christi: It reminds me of a time when I had the good fortune to watch my daughters kindergarten teacher at work with the kids. I noticed how she would be stern and forceful with children who had a tendency to bully other kids and didn't think about others, but with children who were shy and timid, she would be gentle and kind. When I talked with the children later when they came round to visit, I noticed how the aggressive bullying kids thought the teacher was mean and nasty, but the timid shy kids thought she was gentle and sweet.

Actually she was neither; she was simply acting out of love, and was doing her best to help each individual child to develop. It was very beautiful to watch her.

What was even more interesting was that when I talked to the parents, they often held the same view as their own child. The parents of aggressive children thought the teacher was mean and nasty, and the parents of the shy timid children, thought the teacher was sweet and gentle.

Beautiful, Christi.  The same applies to another teacher observing the interaction who may misconstrue the situation based on different methodology, until the manner of instruction becomes known:



VIL