Non-duality - multiplicity

[emc]

Because from one reference point - separation is perceived, due to the conditioned mind.

From another reference point - all separation is illusion and Oneness IS. Then itself is always having a lovestory with itself. And the conditioned mind is no longer the center of the universe.

The universe is not outside of you. It is inside. It is not the way it seems. It's exactly the other way around. The tree is not outside of you. It is inside.

[Christi]

Hi EMC
 

quote:Because from one reference point - separation is perceived, due to the conditioned mind.

From another reference point - all separation is illusion and Oneness IS. Then itself is always having a lovestory with itself. And the conditioned mind is no longer the center of the universe.

The universe is not outside of you. It is inside. It is not the way it seems. It's exactly the other way around. The tree is not outside of you. It is inside.

Beautiful answer.

So the question for me is... where is the door? Where is the door that leads us from one perception, the perception of separation, to the perception of oneness? Then we will know how a single divine being can divide itself into millions of multiple conscious and apparently separate selves, because we will be doing it.

If I say that the world is not real and does not exist, then I am creating a separation, between myself on the one hand, and the unreal world on the other. I could absolve my responsibilities towards my children... after all they don't exist. I could kill trees or flowers, or anything else I wanted, as they don't exist either. Then I could go and meditate up a mountain until I realize my true self. But the question is, is this the door? Is it the path to God? You see there is a fault in the plan. If everything is One, and God is omnipresent, then everything is God, whether it is inside myself or outside myself. So if I have separated myself from myself by denying the reality of the creation (Prakriti) how can I find my true Self?

I could experience a kind of nirvana, an impersonal emptiness which is devoid of self, and characterized by bliss and peace. But it will not be the fullness and richness of a true union with my Divine Self. For that, I believe, we have to accept every aspect of the creation as an expression of the Divine Self, and as a mirror of our Self. That is why Bernie asked you on the retreat to go around thanking each other for being such perfect mirrors. He didn't say "ignore everyone else on the retreat EMC, they don't exist, only you are here, only you are real".

Just as everyone else is a pure mirror, so everything else is a pure mirror, and, as you say, conscious. For me, this is the real door, the acceptance of creation as real and as the (our) Divine consciousness in manifestation. Then we get the best of both worlds, the bliss of nirvana, of the peace of union with emptiness, and the ecstatic love of union with our creation.

[Sparkle]

Christi said:

quote:Louis wrote:
This all sounds like a third eye experience. In one of the courses I attended years ago we used to set up aura seeing exercises. It was commonplace in this setting that people would disappear in front of you, it happened me many times.
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I may be wrong, but I suspect that when Bernie says that some days he finds it hard to see people at all, he does not mean that when he stares at them they just look like a black blob. I suspect he means that he simply sees everyone as God, and as such they are just part of his own supreme Self. Then who is there to see?

He would simply be in bliss and silence, seeing his divine form everywhere, in everything. What would be the point of speaking, and who would he be speaking to? So he has to come down from his normal state of perception, and come into our illusory world, even to speak to people.

It would be interesting to check this with him. Maybe the next time someone sees him they could ask him and let us know?

That's a beautiful way of seeing it Christi, it is obviously the way you mirror this experience[]
 

I wasn't in any way trying to put down Bernie with this, just commenting on how it was put, without assumptions on its context., which was my mirror.

[emc]

Christi,

I cannot really say how it is for you or anyone else. I can only write of my own experience and my knowing of Truth, whatever it's worth to you or anyone else. I do not wish to debate or argue over this thing. I share whatever comes because my fingers tap on the computor. Your posts trigger a wish to respond, that's why I reply. I'm sorry if I write something you don't agree with or don't like. I don't want to persuade you - you have your own beautiful truth, and we all will find the truth inside of us.

However... Interesting to read your question "So the question for me is... where is the door? Where is the door that leads us from one perception, the perception of separation, to the perception of oneness?" It was a question I picked up during the day, so I was a bit surprised to read it in your post, and what arose was: practices. Practices are like the ring signal and the phone call in Matrix - the door out. The mysterious link between the worlds.

The conclusion of the consequence 'let go of all responsibilities because existence is not real' is not logical in my experience. (Note: existence exists but is not REAL, just as the movie exists - everybody can talk about it, but it's not REAL.). When it hit me that existence is not real (and I mean REALLY hit me - resulting in a gigantic laughter), the outpouring love and stillness in action 'took over' and was living life so extremely intelligent without "me doing" anything. The "little me" was not there anylonger to carry any responsibilities, yet everything was perfect. It was just so difficult to take anything seriously anylonger. A bubbling laughter from the deep was there all the time. And a strong compassion and love for everything in existence. Everything - not only the "good stuff" we'd like to enjoy, but also all the "bad stuff". Good and bad lost its meaning totally.

I still wobble between the worlds (Bernie sighed and said 'you live in two realities, get REAL!'), so this hits me over and over again, but I'm still not steady in any state and do not know how "deep or far" I have come (if that is even possible to measure). I just know that what happens in those flips is that life, consciousness, supreme intelligence is unfolding life for me. I watch. That's the freedom. The beauty. The unfathomable grace of living. And I'm not the doer of anything but only has to make the effort to stay awake. That doesn't come automatically.

"If everything is One, and God is omnipresent, then everything is God, whether it is inside myself or outside myself."

Yes, very true to me. Both the movie and the screen is God. But only one of them is real. It's the both of them that creates a whole, but it's a great difference in realness.

"For that, I believe, we have to accept every aspect of the creation as an expression of the Divine Self, and as a mirror of our Self. That is why Bernie asked you on the retreat to go around thanking each other for being such perfect mirrors. He didn't say "ignore everyone else on the retreat EMC, they don't exist, only you are here, only you are real"."

Yes to the first part. And I would dearly stress the "mirror" part of it. "We are the mirror as well as the face in it" says Rumi - not mentioning the "real person" who owned the face. Plato says its "puppets" creating the shadows, not much real in that either. Barry says it's only "ideas in consciousness" that are being manifested in existence." It's a great show of nothing appearing as something, but actually it's empty! Emptiness dancing, as Adyashanti says. Stillness in action, as Yogani says. Not much substance in any of it.

And just to get things right - Bernie did not TELL us to do anything. It was words that fell naturally from our mouths. He said "What you believe are persons here in this room are totally fake! I'm totally fake. Dismiss Bernie Prior. I am nobody - this body is actually nothing - you are nobody. Only THIS is, only THIS is real".

I truly respect your choice of words when you say existence is real and I think your view of it all is wonderful. I just can't say the same and truly mean it.

[Katrine]

Hi All

Emc wrote:
 

quote:I am the perceiver and the perceived.

I am what makes perception possible in the first place

There are no "individual blobs of awareness"......if anything, Katrine is a seemingly individual blob of unawareness.

Only seemingly, though

[emc]

Thanks for chiming in!

So, how do you percieve 'my' day, Katrine??? Am I having fun at this particular moment?

[bewell]

What is a "blob?"  To me, "blob" has a connotation of derision or disgust, as in "Don't just sit there like a blob?" or "How did that blob of mashed potatoe get on my freshly cleaned pants?"  Here is what happened when I Googled "like a blob:"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=0u3&q=%22like+a+blob%22&btnG=Search

EMC, is there a better word for what you are trying to get at?
Or is that the connotation intended?

[emc]

Oops... didn't know of that connotation. In the dictionary it says "drop" or "dab (of jam)". It is meant as "a drop".

[Katrine]

Hi Christi

 

quote:So the question for me is... where is the door? Where is the door that leads us from one perception, the perception of separation, to the perception of oneness?

You - yourself - is the doorway. You are the opening that allows for the door. You - this door and the opening - is right here; right now.

Hi emc

 

quote: It was a question I picked up during the day, so I was a bit surprised to read it in your post, and what arose was: practices. Practices are like the ring signal and the phone call in Matrix - the door out. The mysterious link between the worlds.

Yes. Practises takes you where you already are: here
In practise....you are standing in the door that you are and are not. Of course....when the opening widens....when the wood of the door becomes more and more seethrough.....it is uncovered that the space in the doorway is no different than the space "on both sides" of the door. There is no need of a way "out". Only stand put where you already are....and let yourself "thin out".

Stand still...while you are moved by the power of the opening - and resist not.

Thus "two" is uncovered as "one".

One single, loving block of reality.

[emc]

Thank you for your post, Katrine. To "thin out" was a good suggestion!

I am a fan of Adyashanti right now. This quote reached me this evening:

quote:In our societies, soon after the awakening of the newborn sacred being, the alarm goes off at 7 a.m., and it's time to go to work. This is a little bit disorienting. Yet that is how it is. That's what we've got. So it is important to have a willingness to let it be as it is. Nothing hides realization again so fast as trying to figure it out. [my note:[]]

It is powerful to experience the realization of our beingness and then to be able to experience it with more and more depth. There is a natural maturing of how this realization functions in the world of time and space, but it doesn't present itself all at once. What is needed is total trust in its maturing, the way we trust that babies become children, and children become adolescents, and adolescents become adults.

I feel it is like being caught at the train station in Matrix... and you just have to trust you will get on board that train at some point.

[emc]

Katrine,

Found this quote which describes with such great clarity what I try to express - first things first... If it is all "real" from the start, it will be difficult to see through the illusion.

quote:The world is an illusion, Brahman alone is real, Brahman is the world.

The world is an illusion, you are not an object at all, nothing that can be seen is ultimately real. You are neti, neti, not that, not this. Under no circumstances should you base your Self- realization on that which is finite, temporal, passing, illusory, suffering etc.

Brahman alone is real, the Self, Atman, alone is real. The pure witness, the ultimate existence, the formless seer, the absolute consciousness, the pure emptiness-is what alone  is real and all that is real. It is your true nature, your very essence, your present that is always ever-present as pure presence, that alone is what is real.

Brahman is the world, Emptiness and Form are not divided. After you realize that the manifest world is an illusion, and after you realize that Brahman alone is real, then can you see that the Moksha and Samskara are not two. Then can you realize that the Seer and everything seen are not two. The entire world of Form exist nowhere but in your present Formless Awareness, the whole universe exists within your pure Self, in your pure Consciousness.

                                                -Sri Ramana Maharshi

[Katrine]

Beautiful, isn't it ?

Thank you, emc

[Christi]

Hi Katrine,

 

quote:Hi Christi


quote:
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So the question for me is... where is the door? Where is the door that leads us from one perception, the perception of separation, to the perception of oneness?
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You - yourself - is the doorway. You are the opening that allows for the door. You - this door and the opening - is right here; right now.

Good point! I am sure you are right. But here we are really discussing the difference in approach between two systems of yoga, the Tantric approach to advaita (non-dualism) and the classic yoga approach to advaita Vedanta. Contrary to popular belief in the west, Tantra is not just a good way of having sex (as I am sure you are aware). It is actually a very advanced spiritual approach, and I believe, it is the highest form of yoga. In classical advaita vedanta, the world is denied, and all that is seen to be real is Bramhan, the pure absolute consciousness that exists beyond, and behind the manifest universe. But in Tantra, nothing is denied, the world is accepted as real, and that which supports, creates and exists beyond the world is also accepted as real. A classical yogi progresses from dvaita (dual practices) to advaita and realizes the highest goal in absorbtion of the being in the divine soul disengaged from the world. For the tantrica there is as stage beyond this, where the being is both absorbed in the divine absolute and able to act fully in the divine manifestation, realizing that manifestation as nothing other than Brahman.

This is described in tantra as the state beyond the Turya. I believe that Jesus was living in and teaching this level of enlightenment. Yogani also seems to be teaching at this level (as demonstrated by a number of forum posts discussing the role of enlightened beings beyond being absorbed in a permanent state of bliss (satchitananda)). Sri Aurobindo seemed to have reached this highest stage of enlightenment and talked about the role of an enlightened person not ending with absorbtion of the being in the supramental consciousness, but of the need to bring the light of the supramental consciousness into the material realm to help complete the process of the evolution of the cosmos. This is similar to the way Jesus talked about the creation of heaven on earth.

 It is hard to say how many enlightened beings reach this stage.

I have wondered if, because tantra is life affirming rather than life denying, it is easier for tantricas to move beyond an exclusive absorbsion in the divine purusha, to the stage of realizing the divine as both beyond the manifest world, and immanent in the creation (the divine as both purusha and prakriti).

Christi


p.s. my daughter wanted me to put there smileys in: [8]

[Katrine]

Hi Christi

I can only say that i am an illiterate when it comes to discussing the differences within the Yoga systems.... Tantra, Advaita.....I know nothing of these things.....I get the surface meanings, of course, but I cannot contribute much.....when I know so little about these...terms. I am sorry......there is something in my understanding missing here....bear over with me; it might always be like this with me. I don't feel like "catching up with some reading" either....I would rather be empty.

But I do like to express myself in a clear way.....so don't give up on me. Keep coming back...

Reading your post....do you mean that what I feel about "yourself being the opening....and the door" excludes the world?
I am sorry if it came through like that....I embrace the world! I feel ALL is real....it is just that the realness of the world only comes thoroughly through when the "thought entity Katrine" comes to a standstill....or rather....I let her be, some days she roames more than others, but if I don't engage in the thoughts......they subside. I hear them. I am the room that hears them.......they ususally cannot continue when I am as such aware of them.

 

quote:Good point! I am sure you are right.

Don't be so sure..........after all it is not a "facit"...it is a living life.

I understand why approaches are important. For a long time, they get all the attention.....but eventually, when silence takes over, it is.....limiting...to be too attached to any approach (inculding the "no approach" approach ). Then it boils down to
 acceptance
 surrender

I cry....a lot these days. Singing Christmas concerts every night...I cry silently on stage...because of all the beauty in a silent, listening audience....an aware, alert orchestra......the presence from the choir.....the level of vulnerability that is implied in all this ...it is too much to hold, so the tears silently trickle. And all the words.....about the birth of Jesus (silence)....in the heart of all things.

At home......at night I cry ...the longing is so strong. When it is too much to handle I cannot help but praying to see it. Please let me see you!!!
The other night I heard a gentle "voice" right then.....it said: "If you see me, I will be forever out of your reach". Everything just...stopped. It was so.....evident. If it is something "other than me"...then how can I embody what I am?

Knowing this....and living this......this is the only difference I apply attention to.

So here I am......the door and the opening.

....no matter what life brings......this is always it.

[Steve]

ahhhhhh ... so beautiful ... so much love ... hearts sing in response ... thank you Katrine

Steve