Non-duality - multiplicity

[emc]

We had a thread here in the Satsang Café a while ago on how to manage to live in duality and non-duality. That's a tricky paradox, and definitely worth discussing.

http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=2195
and
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=2315

Now I'm at another question, and I'd just love to hear Yogani, and others to elaborate on this, please.

As Adyashanti puts it: There's only ONE thing going on here. And that's life. Oneness IS, and there's no enlightened person in history - it is itself that wakes up to itself. The person vanishes at the waking up moment, that's the realization, that the person never was real.

Still... all separated body-minds have to wake up by themselves, without help - noone can wake you up! Obviously the One Consciousness is divided into bits and pieces, some parts muddy, some not... muddy to various degrees.

- How is that 'separation' possible? It is a great mystery - how can Oneness be divided into individual blobs of awareness?

Is that one of those questions that crave an awakening, or is it something the awake consciousness would answer "I don't know" to - it just is that way, sort of?

And when IT is realizing oneness in a particular body-mind vehicle... is it still subjective somehow?

- Will two awake blobs of consciousness travelling in two different body-mind vehicles ever share the same unmudded DIRECT experience from Oneness?

The sages seem to differ in their descriptions of this. According to Byron Katie one can never climb into someone elses mind or experiences (although I'm not certain if she said that meaning from a "separated" self reference point, perhaps in order to be able to do the Work with unawake persons). I can't ever "live your life", sort of. According to Bernie Prior that is not true. His awareness could definitely climb into someone elses mind (got several examples of that), and when consciousness widens he described that, 'I' can sort of "join in" and experience anything that happens to anyone in Life, since it is 'I' who creates it. Not merging with it... being it!

That brings the third question, also initiated by Adyashanti's words on the difference between oneness and merging. I wonder, since I haven't really gotten it clear.

- What is "merging" and what are glimpses of living as One?

An example. I sat on the tube on my way home, and suddenly I felt sparkling sodawater pour down my throat all the way down to the stomach and 'me' swallowing it... I got startled. Then I noticed it was a woman on the other side of the train who was drinking Coca cola - but I felt it! Was that a "merging experience"?

Yogani, is this worth a discussion, or is it only to wait until next opening comes to sort this one out?

[Sparkle]

Feeling other people's experiences is I think, empathy.
You are an empath emc. you know like on Star Trek

This is just one of the siddhis and can be very useful, but nevertheless scenery.

No comment about the other stuff.

my 2 cents, L

[bewell]

quote:Originally posted by Sparkle
...but nevertheless scenery.

I'm thinking of "scenery" in relation to witness consciousness and non-duality.  During deep meditation, everything the witness perceives is "scenery."  If during introverted absorption, the awake, aware witness consciousness perceives no scenery whatsoever (no bodily sensations, no thoughts) that is non-duality.  Scenery is duality.  Cessation of scenery, non-duality.  Such a cessation can make a twenty minute meditation go past like it were five minutes.  
 

[emc]

Thanks for your comments, Louis and bewell.

Siddhi, huh? Empath? In my mind, that is only for feelings, not physical sensations, but I guess that is possible also... scenery... merging then as I guessed. Thanks.

Bewell, if all duality is scenery, the whole existence is scenery... I wonder if that is how Yogani would put it...? The whole existence IS but a movie on a screen, but is that what is meant in the lessons as "scenery"? Don't know, but I have a feeling it's not.

But Yogani obviously does not find this interesting to comment on (yet). That is more interesting per se than anything else.

I have never found any sage or realized being talk about or try to describe this very question of multiplicity. Have you?

Kirtanman, Shanti, Katrine, Kyman, mikkiji... calling 'your' blobs of awareness - what's your perception on this from your state of consciousness?

[yogani]

Hi EMC:

Scenery is scenery, but our relationship to it is different in practices than in regular daily activity.

In sitting practices, it is pretty cut and dry -- we favor the practice over the scenery (experiences). This is what brings us the best results from practice.

In daily activity is is not so cut and dry, because we are engaged in living, active in the scenery even while letting it go. This is what makes self-inquiry so tricky, and sometimes counter-productive. It is a matter of how much we have become inner silence via sitting practices. When we have become "stillness in action," then the process of doing while living in non-duality becomes natural -- "relational." If we are prematurely pressing for that intellectually (building castles in the air), it can become strained and disruptive in our daily activity, which is "non-relational."

The simple solution is to engage in sitting practices and go out and live fully. Then self-inquiry occurs relationally and non-duality (unity) is realized naturally.  

See the differences in considering scenery? It is the unfoldment of non-duality in duality. It takes an integration of practices to cultivate it, for most of us it does anyway. It is not for prodigies only, who are often mimicked. With effective means, the real thing is for everyone!  

The guru is in you.

[Shanti]

quote:Originally posted by emc

Kirtanman, Shanti, Katrine, Kyman, mikkiji... calling 'your' blobs of awareness - what's your perception on this from your state of consciousness?

Ummmm... I am kinda honored you think my view could be of any importance..
My mind is sorta simple.. and gets confused with words like Duality and Non-duality... and then it completely shuts down when it encounters words like multiplicity ... (Math!!!?!!! Yikes!!!![]).
I am sorry EMC, dunno much about non-duality.. dunno much about duality.. all I know is.. there is a vast silence that I have access to.. where there is no Me... and when I am there nothing else matters.

quote:Originally posted by emc

As Adyashanti puts it: There's only ONE thing going on here. And that's life. Oneness IS, and there's no enlightened person in history - it is itself that wakes up to itself. The person vanishes at the waking up moment, that's the realization, that the person never was real.

These words are beautiful.. however they are just that.. words.. and each one of us reading these words, pass them through our filter of understanding and try and make an image of what he is trying to say. It's better to experience it for ourselves and not use our mind to try and figure it out... (esp. with the very few experiences I have had.. they are nothing like what my mind imagined them to be.)

quote:Originally posted by emc

- How is that 'separation' possible? It is a great mystery - how can Oneness be divided into individual blobs of awareness?

According to Bernie Prior that is not true. His awareness could definitely climb into someone else's mind (got several examples of that), and when consciousness widens he described that, 'I' can sort of "join in" and experience anything that happens to anyone in Life, since it is 'I' who creates it. Not merging with it... being it!

I wont say I can do what Bernie is talking about.. but I did experience in one of my moments of silence.. Ma (God)is in every soul around me.. I have been told that since I was a child.. "treat everyone kindly, God is in everyone!!!" But this was the first time I experienced it.. and this experience was definitely nothing like the image I had in my mind since I was a child[:0].. In another such moment I realized I could easily be anyone else around me.. because at the Me level.. every individual is their story.. I can be anyone I want.. all I have to do is completely believe and live their story (the stronger my association with their story.. the more I become them..).. because that(completely believing our mind stories) is what makes you EMC and me Shanti... however, when the story drops, we are all one big blob of awareness!!! The separation is there as long as the I stories are alive.. when there is no I story.. there is really... nothing.


I resonate a lot with what Yogani says here:

quote:"In truth, we probably won't say much, and just go do the dishes and take out the trash. Nothing changes, even as everything does. We are becoming "That" even though we already are "That." I guess that is why they call it "realization." Realizing something that is already. It is a becoming ... a journey from here to here..."

I dont even know if any of this relates to stuff being discussed here.. Sorry if I am out of topic. But thanks for listening.

[Sparkle]

quote:emc said: Siddhi, huh?  Empath? In my mind, that is only for feelings, not physical sensations, but I guess that is possible also... scenery... merging then as I guessed. Thanks.

You're probably right about empathy applying to feeling or emotions.
Whatever you call it, it sounds like an amazing experience, to feel someone elses drink energetically go down your body. I was thinking of it in terms of picking up someone's pain, which could be emotional or not. This, as I'm sure you know is common in healing circles and would be a siddhi.

 

quote:The sages seem to differ in their descriptions of this. According to Byron Katie one can never climb into someone elses mind or experiences (although I'm not certain if she said that meaning from a "separated" self reference point, perhaps in order to be able to do the Work with unawake persons). I can't ever "live your life", sort of. According to Bernie Prior that is not true. His awareness could definitely climb into someone elses mind (got several examples of that), and when consciousness widens he described that, 'I' can sort of "join in" and experience anything that happens to anyone in Life, since it is 'I' who creates it. Not merging with it... being it!

That brings the third question, also initiated by Adyashanti's words on the difference between oneness and merging. I wonder, since I haven't really gotten it clear.

- What is "merging" and what are glimpses of living as One?

I too wonder about this aspect of Byron Katie and have wondered about it in relation to her understanding of compassion.

When I think of merging and oneness, I see merging in terms of a mother/child relationship. In pshchological terms this might be called confluence (but you would know more about this). This merging or confluence is quite common in healing circles. The laying of hands would be a confluence type relationship between the two people.
Which is not a problem in itself, but it can be a problem if the psychological merging continues in ones life in general relationships.

I would see oneness as being like the Jungian description of differentiated unity, where the child has become separate and looses the confluential relationship, and through integration and all the work we do experiences unity out of this separation.
I suppose with this we could live the "stillness in action" unfoldment of non-duality in duality that Yogani talks of.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it[]

Bewel said:

quote:I'm thinking of "scenery" in relation to witness consciousness and non-duality. During deep meditation, everything the witness perceives is "scenery." If during introverted absorption, the awake, aware witness consciousness perceives no scenery whatsoever (no bodily sensations, no thoughts) that is non-duality. Scenery is duality. Cessation of scenery, non-duality. Such a cessation can make a twenty minute meditation go past like it were five minutes.

I don't really understand what you're getting at here Bewell, can you explain it further, if you feel inclined[]

Thanks
Louis

[Kyman]

There have been many times where I felt hyper in tune with another person's mind, but one time I went for a car ride with a friend of a friend.  The day was absolutely gorgeous and I felt really good.  As I was looking up at the sky (literally expanded into it, seeing its true beauty) from the passenger seat, I noticed a very crummy sensation come over me.  I thought to myself, why on earth, on this day, would such a feeling come over me.  It was odd.

Later on when the friend left I gave her a big warm hug and the feeling came over me again.    Because this friend was open minded, I told her about the most peculiar feeling in the car and then again while hugging her.  She said it might just be her, she had to take medicine for blood pressure and has a lot of anxiety.  An interesting experience in my memory bank from a few years ago.  

In order to realize and explore the oneness that is, I try to penetrate my mind.  It loves to wonder all over the place, and I find I always gotta reel it in.  So I take one or two breaths and I'm usually in a pretty relaxed and focused state.  What I see after that can be quite strange.

It is strange to view life without projections.  The objects you normally see disappear and become some new object of the mind.  For example, perceiving a car verses a flow of cars.  To see a network of drivers instead of being a driver alone.  People's faces, when they are angry, frighten me.  When they are happy, they are quite heavenly.  I see less of the features, and more of the love that is either free flowing with a smile or struggling to breath with a grimace.  

For my experience, it feels like I always have this element of duality feeding my consciousness, and it is only when I have very low energy that I experience a strong sense of separateness.  As if I am so weak I fall under the mind and become buried under its weight of duality for a length of time.  So at many costs I try to avoid over stimulation, overload of practices, and poor diet.  As long as my energy level is good, the duality comes through more as a language of symbolism.  A very fast and fluid and living language.  When my consciousness cannot rise above the mind, because I have not taken care of my body, the duality sets in.  An old habit I'm still working on.

[emc]

Thank you everyone for wonderful replies! Thank you Yogani for jumping in here and dissolve some confusion!

(Oh... just saw that "everyONE" is a much clearer word to choose than "everyBODY"... haha!)

bewell wrote
"Scenery is duality."

Yogani wrote
"In daily activity is is not so cut and dry, because we are engaged in living, active in the scenery even while letting it go. - - - See the differences in considering scenery? It is the unfoldment of non-duality in duality."

Oh, oh, oh...!!! This twists my understanding a lot, if I get it right the way you mean it. I thought "scenery" was about fabulous spiritual experiences of all sorts that are not really IT and therefore should not be taken seriously in any way, and particularly not being fooled by and start believing "that's enlightenment". But if "scenery" is the whole of existence (duality) that would in my terminology equal the "non-real" (vs That, which is real)..... Is that what is meant by scenery all along in the lessons? That would mean a huge shift in my interpretation of the lessons.

Shanti, thank you for a wonderful post! All your contributions are always important - you are a Goddess! You are actually the only one NOT being off the topic, by mentioning the multiplicity! Thank you!

Shanti wrote:
"...there is a vast silence that I have access to.. where there is no Me... and when I am there nothing else matters."

Hm. When I was on a real high after the retreat, this question was not important either. Nothing mattered. But when pendling back to my mind, it starts to see this pattern of silence around this very matter by ALL the wise guys!!! Not even Barry Long, who is one of those keen on explaining stuff has addressed this issue; How can our individually evolving "souls" split off from The One and the consciousness being differently blurred by mud? I find it very remarkable that noone has tried to talk about that part. But I guess, you're right, Shanti... in this:

quote:every individual is their story.. I can be anyone I want.. all I have to do is completely believe and live their story (the stronger my association with their story.. the more I become them..).. because that(completely believing our mind stories) is what makes you EMC and me Shanti... however, when the story drops, we are all one big blob of awareness!!! The separation is there as long as the I stories are alive.. when there is no I story.. there is really... nothing.

Thank you for the reminder!

Sparkle, Thank you for your input on merging! Yes - that healing stuff and feeling other's emotions are definitely merging! It takes TWO to merge - therefore it IS not Oneness. Two people DOING an activity is not BEING ONE. Simple as that. Feeling ANOTHER'S feelings is only possible from a separated state. In Oneness there are no others. It is only This.

I see now that defining the other woman as "her" definitely places the experience as happening while in a separated state. Thank you for helping me see that, Louis!

Kyman, I guess your experience with your friend would qualify under that as well, or what do you say?

Kyman wrote:

quote:When my consciousness cannot rise above the mind, because I have not taken care of my body, the duality sets in. An old habit I'm still working on.

Oh, strong resonance here with your writings on lower energy states and falling asleep again! And I just love your last line: It's a HABIT!!!!

[bewell]

quote:Originally posted by Sparkle
I don't really understand what you're getting at here Bewell, can you explain it further, if you feel inclined[]

Hi Sparkle,

What it is that doesn't make sense?

[Christi]

Hi EMC

 

quote:Oh, oh, oh...!!! This twists my understanding a lot, if I get it right the way you mean it. I thought "scenery" was about fabulous spiritual experiences of all sorts that are not really IT and therefore should not be taken seriously in any way, and particularly not being fooled by and start believing "that's enlightenment". But if "scenery" is the whole of existence (duality) that would in my terminology equal the "non-real" (vs That, which is real)..... Is that what is meant by scenery all along in the lessons? That would mean a huge shift in my interpretation of the lessons.

The way the word scenery is used in the lessons it does sound like it means wonderful (good or bad) experiences that happen on the path towards enlightenment. These are the ones not to get caught up in. It does not seem to mean every object that meets our senses in the manifest universe.

As I see it, everything is real. The world is real and is created by God. What is not real is our perception of ourselves as separate from everything. So the trees, the rivers, the birds, and other people are all real and all exist. And the more the illusion of separation falls away, the more intensely real these things appear to be.
So we can experience non-duality as we walk through a forest. Only the appearance of separation is not there ... and the I-sense. But the forest is there, and it is real.

[Sparkle]

quote:I'm thinking of "scenery" in relation to witness consciousness and non-duality. During deep meditation, everything the witness perceives is "scenery." If during introverted absorption, the awake, aware witness consciousness perceives no scenery whatsoever (no bodily sensations, no thoughts) that is non-duality. Scenery is duality. Cessation of scenery, non-duality. Such a cessation can make a twenty minute meditation go past like it were five minutes.

Hi Bewell
Ok I'm starting to get what you're talking about having read emc's post and now Christi's post.


When we look at a flower we see the flower, if we strip it of all it's identifications of, flower, petal, colour, texture, smell, beauty and any other thought that comes in - we are still looking at that flower - it does'nt dissapear - it exists - it is separate from the wall next to it.
It is our identifications with it that make the duality - in our minds.
In non-duality the flowers are still there, as Christi says, the forest is still there, the multiplicity is still there, but without the identifications it is non-duality.

So when you say scenery = duality, by this I take it you mean scenery is identification with objects. I think this is a wider view of what is generally understood of as scenery in AYP, but maybe not?
It would mean to me that scenery is every experience prior to full enlightenment.

I think what Yogani says is good advice, certainly for me:

quote:If we are prematurely pressing for that intellectually (building castles in the air), it can become strained and disruptive in our daily activity, which is "non-relational."

I know what you mean by a meditation going quickly, I generally experience it the other way around, time often slows down for me. Having said that, this would have been my experience with mindfulness meditation. In daily mindfulness practice,outside of AYP meditation, it is still the case

Regards
Louis

[emc]

Christi: "And the more the illusion of separation falls away, the more intensely real these things appear to be."

To me, it's no more real than Matrix. It's all appearances. It appears in our sense-perception as reflections. It's not at all real. Everything that changes, has a beginning and an end, (like a flower) is not real, only temporary waves on the ocean. But I guess it might just be a matter of words...

I'm very happy for this discussion. It seems that we all have different ideas of what "scenery" is...

From the lessons:

 "Keeping your regularity in practice is very
important as you travel along the byways of life. Whatever you
ultimately choose your daily practice to be, this should be sacred.
It is your primary pathway inward. You can count on it, because you
are committed to doing it every day without fail. Everything else is
passing scenery, inspiring at times, and not so inspiring at other
times."

"Enjoying being behind the wheel of the car, you know, watching the beautiful
scenery going by, instead of being lost under the hood."

"Don't let your experiences distract you from the practices that have
facilitated them. If you remain steadfast in practices, your
experiences will become greater and greater, eventually never leaving
you. You will find yourself trooping around during the day with your
ishta, and an entourage of angels too! Experiences do not beget
greater experiences. Practices do."

So... Practices are sacred because they lead toward clarity. Scenery is everything else. Scenery is what will be watched all the time from being behind the wheel... sure sounds like the witness outside Matrix... When you see the existence in which you have all your experiences as Matrix - illusion - not real - appearances - the experiences will never leave of course... we're here in our bodies so that we can experience Matrix. But it's actually what's behind Matrix that is the "beingness" we rest in. Stillness... in action...

[Sparkle]

emc wrote:

quote:It's not at all real. Everything that changes, has a beginning and an end, (like a flower) is not real, only temporary waves on the ocean

Is this not an intellectual expression rooted in past and future.

Everything is temporary, is impermanent, moving in time, but our experience of it in the "now" is the flower, is the tree, they don't disappear when we come into the now.
If we have the experience of emptiness or spaciousness whilst engaging in life, we still feel the ground, still see the flower.
As Christi says it becomes more real not less real, like a small child seeing something for the first time, full of wonder and awe.

Perhaps the matrix model represents the identifications or stories we give things, once these go the matrix goes.
The illusion is the identification not the ........
We still experience the ............. in all its multiplicity

This is based on my limited experiences of glimpses here and there.
You may have had glimpses that say different.

[Eddie33]

i still think a higher understnading of what happens during the awakening process is needed. people who have realizations simply can't just go around forever syaing "there's nobody home" or "you don't exist" or "there's only silence" or "you are that", or anthing to that matter.
what about an understanding of the nooks and crannies in between it all. what about a desicive understanding of ignorance.

i'll try to be like my teacher right now and say that many people here have experienced first enlightenment or enlightenment to the state of presence or witnessing consciousness. this is basically just when enlightenment is felt like the "awareness of awareness" or whatever. i also think that people here have obviously acitivated there heart energies.

but then there is enlightenment to the absolute state. a lot more rare than the others. i can't really comment on it more