Reading in witness state

[Anima]

Pure

[compassion]

Thank you Jeff and kami,

and apologies for the fruitful delay in replying.

In the last week I have felt a loving desire to learn of saints and a curiousity of Christian Mysticism in general. At first I had little understanding of why, except the word 'bhakti' echoing from time to time at the back of my mind. Now I see that there is a certain humility to be found in such people, that has been lacking in myself. I had perhaps only started a few steps in this direction, to realise that I have taken the experience of God as if my own, and somehow I must come to an understanding that awareness and myself are profoundly separate before I can start to acknowledge that I am just a part of awareness, instead of awareness being a part of me.

It is a humbling experience, and certainly one of surrender as you describe.

I came full circle to the practise of Loving-Kindness meditation which I had been doing a lot of at the end of last year. When doing this with a not-so-favourable aquaintance the other day, I was wishing her to be at peace and at ease with herself, and saw her heart glowing and expanding to every corner of the Earth... at which point I 'knew' that we all lived in the same heart, that is the reality we share on a daily basis. It was more of an intellectual realisation, than emotional, though my heart has been profoundly more active than usual. Now I have wonderful moments of seeing everyone, including myself, manifesting as part of the same love.

Love to all

[karmic]

Hi All,

It seems more than a coincidence that whenever I have wanted to know anything, I have found myself coming across similar topics/discussions on this forum.

Few days back, I was pondering whether Free Will is just another concept/mental construct. It was nice to hear views of friends here. Personally I also couldn't found why free will has to exist when experiences are happening on their own. This is what that allowed me to arrive at this-

1. Thoughts after any event is analysis which is mind game.
2. Thoughts during any event is illusion/appearance of control.
3. Thoughts before event is..well, just a speculation/ thought.

We find that thoughts are powerless, absolutely. So where is the question of free will?

[jeff]

Hi Compassion,

Very beautiful description.

If you are interested in learning more about Christian mysticism, the Gospel of Thomas is a great place to start. Also, there are a few of us discussing the Gospel and Christian mysticism in general over on the taobums. Just email me if you would like me to point you to the threads.

Best wishes,
Jeff

[compassion]

Hi karmic,

Thank you for your input on the discussion. Do you think thoughts are the only thing that establishes will? I think it is also possible to act without thought and then to take that action as our own.

I tend to come full circle on this issue regularly. I think my most current thinking is that we easily take divine will as our own, and in terms of what the ego believes that it is, there is indeed free will - though it often exists in a relatively small bubble of control that battles against itself and the universe in trying to assert itself. When the divine nature of our action and existence is realised, then we can see easily that everything was after all divine. It is no longer a bubble, but covers the entirety of time and space. So both camps are right, in my opinion.

Hi Jeff,

I will send you an email. Thank you for the tip about the Gospel of Thomas - I had no idea such texts existed. I'm very interested in anything that might shed a different perspective on Jesus' teachings, since there are parts of other testaments that I struggle to understand as it is. Can you recommend a specific translation/publication?

Best wishes.

[karmic]

Hello compassion,

...I think it is also possible to act without thought..

Exactly! doing is not dependent on thinking at all and hence the element of will/volition/control is redundant.

I see your view as a corollary(i.e. in egoic state, divine will is seen as free will) than a diversion. And that brings me to my actual question which is nagging me for last few days- if we can't will/choose, what is the point of making efforts (in spiritual /material world)?

Please share your views on above,

Love

[compassion]

Hello karmic,

I don't know the best answer - perhaps others can chime in - but I think your question can be tackled from two angles.

First, if you do nothing for long enough, you might convince yourself that you actually do have free will. It depends how determined you are to do nothing. In this lies the beauty of such an illusion, that either can be true.

Second, I think much of the spiritual journey is about surrendering. As such, not making efforts doesn't sound so bad. But I would argue that, for example, lying in bed all day would require much more effort than helping people, singing, and dancing with joy. The least effort is to follow the heart than to work against it.

This question I am trying to answer myself, so apologies if my answers are not the most thought out as yet

[jeff]

quote:Originally posted by compassion


Hi Jeff,

I will send you an email. Thank you for the tip about the Gospel of Thomas - I had no idea such texts existed. I'm very interested in anything that might shed a different perspective on Jesus' teachings, since there are parts of other testaments that I struggle to understand as it is. Can you recommend a specific translation/publication?

Best wishes.

Hi Compassion,

I think it is important to remember that the standards texts in the Holy Bible were basically chosen by the roman emperor in 325 (council of Nicaea). Originally, there had been seven main "churches" with Rome only being one of the seven. Jesus even said there should be no priests (Rabbi or Father) as one should have a direct and personal relationship with the divine...

Matthew 23: 8-12
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Because as Jesus said...

Luke 17: 20-21
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Regarding the translations of the Gospel of Thomas and other early christian texts, the below site has a lot of good informations (and versions).

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/index.html

Best wishes,
Jeff

[compassion]

Thank you Jeff,

It is indeed strange that Christianity exists in its current form. But perhaps for some, it can encourage a personal relationship with the divine that would not have existed without.

Thank you also for the link to early christian texts.

Best wishes