Half Zen Master Half OCD Disciple

[11jono11]

Dear One,

I don't know whether I should attach this here: http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=9705 or here: http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=8227 , as it's the same basic problem but slightly different, also these threads have gone in slightly different directions so I thought I should start another one. If it's in the wrong place then forum Gods please feel free to move.

(Rather than putting every “I” and “you” in quotes, I will be writing with the assumption [as I’m sure most do here], that “we” ; “know” that these separate identities are not real and all is one.)

I have found recently that given the space to talk that is provided by someone who thinks of/assumes themselves to be “not as conscious”, or “less advanced” than me results in a lot of Truth unfolding. In other words, when speaking to someone who thinks that I’m more conscious than them (answering questions they ask, or just discussing whatever) I have recently been finding myself talking like an enlightened guy.

I’m investigating what is being said as it’s said, and making a point not to regurgitate any information and when I do I investigate it for myself to make sure I know it’s True, to be able to own it for myself. It feels like most of the time that what I’m saying (in these circumstances) isn’t from memory, I’m just talking and a lot of the time I don’t always know what is going to be said until I say it; then when it’s said it’s like “wow, look at that…….. that’s bloody wise” (though there isn’t a big egotistical dwelling on the information).

I seem to be able to answer most questions (regarding reality) put to me by people and answer them well. I’m learning through the conversation as much as they are and a lot of them tell me that I’m really good at explaining this stuff etc etc.  

This is all fine of course, but I am talking like an enlightened guy and not living/being like one. Too much Jnana/Intellect not enough Bhakti/Heart perhaps. The main example: some OCD that developed towards the end of the last academic year, caused by the stress of finishing my degree, essays, working full time in a hospital and all of the other things Life/The One throws at you. (Quick explanation here of how the OCD developed, ignore if you don’t feel it’s relevant). I don’t want wealth, I don’t want fame and don’t have any real attachment or drive towards anything apart from Truth. But the mind sneakily snuck in-in my last months of the degree with, “Sure, you don’t want anything, you don’t have to worry about anything, it’s all One, it’s all good etc, but this (the degree), this is important, this deserves your worry, you should worry about this”; this led to the worrisome part of my mind growing ever stronger (and it’s habits to worry/not to surrender being reinforced), and when I handed in my last bit of academic work it was like there was all of this excess anxiety which had nothing to focus on, so it started focusing on being hyper-vigilante against infection etc (I was training to be a mental health nurse, working in an area with a of people with blood borne viruses). Saying all that I can see that it’s all just a story but there’s still seems to be a big investment in it.  

This has gone from bad to worse to bad to not so bad (without any official treatment from anyone might I add [except dialogues with people from AYP, family, friends etc]), but it is still affecting my life in very overt ways (the OCD centres around fears of contamination of specifically blood borne viruses).

So I’m wondering what’s going on here. On the Jnana/Intellect side of things I am “further” than ever, but on the other, here I am this person with OCD. I know that none of this is real, all beliefs are false etc, like I said, if given the room to speak I can border on sounding like a Zen Master, but then there are still these OCD behaviours, worries, habits, like there’s 2 separate beings here (which I guess in a way there is True/No-Self and Ego). I guess the mind and/or ego would argue it’s too big to apply (all of this Truth/non-Truth stuff) to me/these problems. Of course if I could apply it there would be no problem as NOTHING is real when thought of as a thing, there is just This; no belief is true therefore there is no such thing as Jono, disease, contamination OCD etc, all of these problems are completely illusory and everything is fine.

This is from memory so correct me if I’m wrong, but this seems to match up with Yogani’s Teachings/the AYP system (which I practice) in which self-inquiry at too early a stage isn’t seen to work so well (or something like that), until a good degree of inner silence is present.

So, any suggestions etc would be appreciated, perhaps I need to surrender more, perhaps I need more heart and less intellect or perhaps I just need to keep with my twice-daily practice and get on with life.

I would like to point out that throughout the OCD manifesting there was so many OCD thoughts/behaviours at one point that my practice started to suffer, I’d do less and less. For the past few weeks, the first time since it got out of hand I have been doing my twice-daily practice and already feel noticeably better, but the OCD is still affecting me. I have been wondering whether I need to do more of any kind of practice and have been thinking about doing some of the practices from here http://btci.edina.clockss.org/cgi/reprint/3/3/369 ; this guy seems to have devoted his life to researching Yoga and mental health, specifically OCD. The only thing is, his treatments etc take 1h.30mins, and with 1h30mins of AYP a day I don’t have the time. In the article it says that doing the OCD-breath 30mins a day for 90 days (according to Yogi Bhajan), will completely eradicate any kind of OCD, so I have been thinking about just doing this (left nostril breathing) together with AYP.

Through discussing this (and the prospect of possibly trying an Entheogen) with a fellow AYPer he suggested that this is something that I need to overcome, and I think he’s right, that progression/opening will occur once this is overcome and I wonder whether doing left nostril breathing/bodywork like this is just a temporary fix, just like medication would be (though there is anecdotal evidence of people who have tried it, got better and no longer need to do it).

I am about to start some kind of counselling/CBT tomorrow, which I hope will work by itself, so we will see about that, but of course, any suggestions would be good. Perhaps I’m not meant to get better and the suffering caused by all this is going to through me into enlightenment, I don’t know but as un-conscious as this sounds, and I’ll probably have some insight into how false this desire is etc at the moment I just want to be “normal” again. (Anthony De Mello: “Happiness doesn’t need to depend on anything to be” including health I guess.)

Thank you to all for your continual love and advice etc and sorry that I haven’t been replying recently, the past few months have been difficult+busy.

(I think if I could just trust Life as well put here: http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=10379 , that would solve all of these "problems")

Love

[woosa]

Hi Jono

Well, I know what the last year of uni was like. Mass panic. I still have dreams of handing in assignments and not having a clue what I need to do. I graduated 3 years ago! I know that's probably not something you want to hear. You will calm down in time. Meditation will really help.

All I can say from here is try not to think like a Zen master (from what I have read they are pretty spontaneous and hit people with big sticks don't know if that is wise thing to in public) or anything else for that matter. Even the idea that everything is illusion and one etc. These are all mind games also! You don't know that for sure, you just heard an enlightened person say that! You can affirm this with self inquiry though. That's my view anyway - I guess my ishta is to be plain and boring! Go with the flow and act out of the inner silence you have.

My brother has OCD and Bi-polar (great combination) and when he starts furiously checking if the door is locked I jump on him and make him aware! I sometimes hit him with a mop - (closest thing I have to a big stick). Not sure if that helps, and besides I have stopped now because he starts hitting back. Can't tell you much else because he hasn't seeked any help for it. He's on some anti depressants, but they don't seem to help. I suggest meditation, but he is stubborn like a mule.

All I can suggest treatment wise is to go with the one that you feel would be the most benefit and safe.

Keep busy and keep practicing. All I can suggest from my limited experience is when you start having OCD thoughts become aware of them. It you have a bit of inner silence from Samyama practice I don't see why you couldn't try self inquiry.

Not sure about the constant breathing through one nostril though: Sounds like you are affecting the ida or pingala channel - no idea which. Which means - if you believe all that stuff (there goes plain, boring me again) you could be knocking yourself out of balance? Gopi Krishna said that he had the kundalini exclusively in the ida (or pingala?) channel and that wasn't a pretty story.

Congrats on finishing uni.

[escapado]

Hello Jono
I've experienced it, too
This whole sounding like an enlightened guy thing and wondering where you just got that from. I don't know how to deal with it as in the beginning it just pushed my ego and then later on it made me feel bad because I thought that this was a big self-deception.


I still don't know what it is but I have some theories on it:

- It is they way you think that the masters sound like subconsciously coming up to the surface
- It is a game of your intellect (which you can never "beat" but only watch)
- It is madness
- It is a little spark of the inner silence which contains every truth in it expressed maybe correctly maybe in too many words => with over-interpretation so to say
- It is the intellect on a very high level
- It is the expression of truth in words in some way but there is still something missing(?)

I still don't know what it is, maybe it's just a game of the ego because it wants to feel special.

I can't tell you what meaning this phenomenon has but let me quote something from the famous Charlie Sheen interview:

Interviwer: "Have you had any celebrities reach out to you?"
Charlie Sheen: "Oh yeah, really radical people like sean penn and mel gibson and collin farrell and just radical people and they're not telling me what to do"
Interviewer: "Who gave you the best piece of advice?"
Charlie Sheen: "Oh they didn't give me any advice and within that there's great advice. It's just love"

[jeff]

Jono,

Escapado makes a very good point. Try not to give too much energy to the "Zen Master" thing. Your description is very ego/mind based. It is very good that you are "noticing" your actions. Noticing is the beginning of the "witness stage", just remember that noticing is different than "worrying". Meditation will help. Finding the "silence" or "witness" will make a big difference.

If you don't mind, a suggestion... The next time you are feeling OCD, try to count (notice) how many different thoughts (or threads) you have going on "worrying you" or "telling you stuff". Don't worry about fighting them, just try to watch or count them and see what happens.

Have a good week.

[CarsonZi]

Hi Jono

quote:Through discussing this..... with a fellow AYPer he suggested that this is something that I need to overcome

I would suggest that hyper-focusing on the OCD is only going to reinforce it.  It's kinda like trying to micromanage the awakening of the chakras.  Best (IMO) to work on a "global" approach and allow things to open as/when the time is right.  Trying to force anything is basically only going to reinforce it in my experience.  For me, it was only when I stopped trying to get clean from drugs that the addictions fell away on their own.  So, from my perspective, it will probably be best to do what you said here; "I just need to keep with my twice-daily practice and get on with life"... Trying to force the OCD out is only going to make it worse in my opinion.  If I were you, I would try to accept that I have OCD, continue with my practices, and watch the OCD fall away on it's own.  That's not to say that you shouldn't go to therapy or anything... that's probably a good idea.  But I would really let go of the hyper-focus on needing to "fix" anything here.  Accept the OCD, embrace the OCD, continue with your practices twice a day (using dilligent self pacing of course) and allow the chips to fall where they may.  I think you will be surprised at how fast things will change when you surrender to the reality of what is.  Reality is, you have some OCD tendencies.  Accepting that is going to allow the space needed for things to change.

Just my opinion though, take what resonates and scrap the rest.

Love!

[BuddhiHermit]

More later if you wish, but the OCD appears to be a protection from surrendering to  nothingness - instead of emptiness.

[11jono11]

Hey all,

First:

 

quote:All I can say from here is try not to think like a Zen master (from what I have read they are pretty spontaneous and hit people with big sticks don't know if that is wise thing to in public) or anything else for that matter. Even the idea that everything is illusion and one etc. These are all mind games also! You don't know that for sure, you just heard an enlightened person say that! You can affirm this with self inquiry though.

To an extent this is true. But like I said.

 

quote:I’m investigating what is being said as it’s said, and making a point not to regurgitate any information and when I do I investigate it for myself to make sure I know it’s True, to be able to own it for myself. It feels like most of the time that what I’m saying (in these circumstances) isn’t from memory, I’m just talking and a lot of the time I don’t always know what is going to be said until I say it; then when it’s said it’s like “wow, look at that…….. that’s bloody wise” (though there isn’t a big egotistical dwelling on the information).

So it's not really a thinking thing. Again it's  

quote:I have found recently that given the space to talk that is provided by someone who thinks of/assumes themselves to be “not as conscious”, or “less advanced” than me results in a lot of Truth unfolding. In other words, when speaking to someone who thinks that I’m more conscious than them (answering questions they ask, or just discussing whatever) I have recently been finding myself talking like an enlightened guy.

(But then again if it was 100% then I guess there wouldn't be these control/OCD issues, or would there? That's partly what I'm trying to find out )

Enlightened guy probably isn't right. More like, I find that there is a flow when I am asked things in such situations. I'm often not regurgitating information and if I am I'm inquiring into it and feel a lot of opening through it. Anyways, doesn't matter, there's no attachment to this stuff, just wondering about it.

 

quote:Hello Jono
I've experienced it, too
This whole sounding like an enlightened guy thing and wondering where you just got that from. I don't know how to deal with it as in the beginning it just pushed my ego and then later on it made me feel bad because I thought that this was a big self-deception.


I still don't know what it is but I have some theories on it:

- It is they way you think that the masters sound like subconsciously coming up to the surface
- It is a game of your intellect (which you can never "beat" but only watch)
- It is madness
- It is a little spark of the inner silence which contains every truth in it expressed maybe correctly maybe in too many words => with over-interpretation so to say
- It is the intellect on a very high level
- It is the expression of truth in words in some way but there is still something missing(?)

I still don't know what it is, maybe it's just a game of the ego because it wants to feel special.

I can't tell you what meaning this phenomenon has but let me quote something from the famous Charlie Sheen interview:

Interviwer: "Have you had any celebrities reach out to you?"
Charlie Sheen: "Oh yeah, really radical people like sean penn and mel gibson and collin farrell and just radical people and they're not telling me what to do"
Interviewer: "Who gave you the best piece of advice?"
Charlie Sheen: "Oh they didn't give me any advice and within that there's great advice. It's just love"

I would say this one is correct: -  

quote:- It is a little spark of the inner silence which contains every truth in it expressed maybe correctly maybe in too many words => with over-interpretation so to say

At woosa, escapado and jeff none of this is bothering me (the talking stuff), perhaps I should have done 2 separate posts about it. I was just contemplating the possibility that there was too much intellect and not enough heart and whether that could be connected to my recent issues with OCD. Also I was highlighting what feels like a MASSIVE, MAHUSSIVE dichotomy between, conscious insights into the nature of self and reality and this OCD bollocks. So actually, if it would be possible here to stop discussion about the initial topic (of talking like an enlightened guy) unless it relates to overcoming the controlling egoic nature of OCD then that would be grrrrreat (is it ok to request that? I hope I'm not being out of line [where's the confused smiley???] oh, I see not really a smiley).

 

quote:Hi Jono

quote:
Through discussing this..... with a fellow AYPer he suggested that this is something that I need to overcome


I would suggest that hyper-focusing on the OCD is only going to reinforce it. It's kinda like trying to micromanage the awakening of the chakras. Best (IMO) to work on a "global" approach and allow things to open as/when the time is right. Trying to force anything is basically only going to reinforce it in my experience. For me, it was only when I stopped trying to get clean from drugs that the addictions fell away on their own. So, from my perspective, it will probably be best to do what you said here; "I just need to keep with my twice-daily practice and get on with life"... Trying to force the OCD out is only going to make it worse in my opinion. If I were you, I would try to accept that I have OCD, continue with my practices, and watch the OCD fall away on it's own. That's not to say that you shouldn't go to therapy or anything... that's probably a good idea. But I would really let go of the hyper-focus on needing to "fix" anything here. Accept the OCD, embrace the OCD, continue with your practices twice a day (using dilligent self pacing of course) and allow the chips to fall where they may. I think you will be surprised at how fast things will change when you surrender to the reality of what is. Reality is, you have some OCD tendencies. Accepting that is going to allow the space needed for things to change.

Just my opinion though, take what resonates and scrap the rest.

Love!

Carson, I agree, though it is hard not to resist it. Also CBT (the main effective treatment therapy for OCD), involves challenging the thoughts, looking at them and resisting the compulsions. Additionally (and I still do agree with you completely, focusing on the OCD does give it power), but if I don't resist it, rationalize it, example: "This thing is contaminated I need to wash it", "but do I really need to wash it, would someone without OCD want to wash it??? blah blah" then I just keep giving into it and the habits remain, they stay, they continue to reinforce themselves. Do you see my predicament? Though I agree I shouldn't resist as it will make it stronger, if I don't I'll just keep doing OCD stuff, therefore maintaining it.

(I guess there could be a middle way: Only challenging it/resisting it when it comes up and not dwelling on it the rest of the time. But also typing here now I see that resisting the thoughts and surrendering to them [but not giving in to them and doing the compulsions] are kind of the same thing??? Though still hard to do)

I have in part wondered about all this, how whether the only way out is enlightenment, egoic suicide, and this is the poking and prodding making the dream really horrible and uncomfortable that will cause me to wake up, not to settle for anything less than being awake. I kind of wrote about some of this here: http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=10500 .

 

quote:More later if you wish, but the OCD appears to be a protection from surrendering to nothingness - instead of emptiness.

Also, at BuddhiHermit and Carson. I agree, it is about surrendering. I just need to surrender to what is. OCD is like the polar opposite of surrender. Again here I am wondering whether this is me, Life/God etc just showing me that life is uncomfortable if you don't surrender and that it's infinitely peaceful if you do. I want to take away all risks from life, all risks of harm to my body (that's the OCD), but this is not possible, I can try and control and protect against risk all I like but I can never completely remove risk, short of never leaving the house (also my True/No-self is not the body). Surrender or Suffer. It seems an obvious choice, but the ego here at moment obviously has it's preference on suffer. It's odd. Such a dichotomy. I feel like when this is overcome there will be a massive opening (of course there will).

Do either of you guys (or anyone else) have any suggestions on surrender? / How to overcome this controlling OCD? About a year ago I was in a good place with my practices, and I remember looking to a photo of Ananda Mayi Ma and surrendering, just offering up myself completely to her, the All, the One. It felt amazing, it felt beautiful, so peaceful, blissful, free. I guess it's easy to surrender when you've not got much going on in your life. At the opposite end I guess eventually it gets to a point where you're either A: suffering so much, or B: tired of the ongoing suffering that you seem to make the obvious choice, surrender.

The counsellor I am seeing is just starting to put together something to help me challenge this stuff. I think a combination of CBT, surrender and self inquiry should get me there (and my own thinking: examples:
1.   I didn’t used to be like this I can just tell myself if it’s something that you wouldn’t of worried about then you don’t have to worry about it.
2.   No one else is worried about it and they’re fine, I can act as others do until I am just back to normal/use the reminder of, would anyone else worry about this?
3.   I’m being asked to expose myself to these things, if they were dangerous/if there was a risk then I wouldn’t be ask to do so.
4.   I want and am willing for someone to take the OCD away, meaning that I wouldn’t be hyper-vigilante like I’m being now after it was gone, meaning that I am willing to stop the behaviour/not be hyper-vigilante, so why don’t I/I might as well just stop?
5.   Surrender the body, what does it matter if you get ill anyway?
6.   Jono is going to die one day. Would you rather live in fear and suffer only to be reborn again, or surrender to it, except death and live without fear, without any fear. And also, even those who don’t know they will go on (reincarnate) don’t worry about the things that you do. Surrender the body, trust Life, trust God, trust Self.
7.   If it ends up hurting so much and taking you to the point of suicide where you want to kill yourself, then you would be dead anyway, might as well let go and let God.)

Overcoming this, surrendering to this to me feels like surrendering to Death, surrendering to Nothingness. It would be a cool thing to be able to do, a big opening (perhaps one of the biggest openings) and I am sure that that is what this is all about, but also, to be honest, at the moment, I just want to be OCD free and happy.

BuddhiHermit I would love to here more, and if anyone has any suggestions then feel free to post. I am v.busy at the moment hence my irregular posting (+ this stuff is hard posting about, really personal and there's so much stigma attached to mental health issues) but I will keep up with it as often as poss. Additionally, I will of course update with any real progress I make, which I can start with now: Continuing with my practice, I am being bothered by less things (I think) I am able to challenge compulsions that I wasn't before etc, I think I am progressing.

Also, if anyone has any suggestions of any practices to avoid or start, then please suggest. As per Carsons observations and my intuition I have stopped YMK and am currently on SBP+DM + occasionally SY .

Wow, this is a loonnnnnnnnng post, congrats + thankyou to anyone who gets to the end.

Love and Gratitude

[karl]

Hi Jono,

Your posting is slightly confused in that you seem to be asking if enlightenment can end your 'doing' OCD ?

Well we can sometimes go from one idea to another without any baggage. The difficulty is trying to use self inquiry as a means to create the jump.

Living in the moment isn't as straightforward as it sometimes seems to described. It isn't about being at a particular point in time, it is about being disconnected from the very idea of time. It requires total acceptance of the naturalness of thought, yet without any identification. OCD is the firing pin to your path and not a preventative.

Often we need to crawl before we walk. Like a chick trying to get out of an egg, it is easy to view the inside of the egg as the real world. During this time we identify with memory as real events. Instead of adding to the confusion by mashing up some meditation and inquiry as a means of flying from the situation (whatever that might be) I suggest that finding a skilled NLP practitioner that uses time line therapy to do what is referred to as a 'break through session'.

This would reduce your anxiety and fears around your beliefs and allow you to settle more easily into meditation without expectations.

I hope I have read your post correctly, sometimes it's difficult, but it seems like you need to get rid of some baggage first as I did.

[jeff]

Hi Jono,

Made it to the end your post[], and while long, it was a little more clear.

While your OCD/Ego vs. "opening" point makes sense, I would agree with Karl's "crawl before we walk" suggestion.  Also, you quoted Escapado with "little spark of the inner silence" and I think that is very relevant. Continuing to practice DM & SBP, should help that "little spark of the inner silence" to grow.  As you spend more time there, fear recedes.  Over time that state becomes 24/7 and things become very peaceful.

Facing your fears with counseling should be helpful. But everything rarely happens with a big bang. Surrender sounds easy, but true surrender is very hard. The first step is learning to accept yourself.  After that, everything gets a little easier. Have a good weekend.

Peace & Love,

Jeff

[11jono11]

Hey, that was quick,

 

quote:Hi Jono,

Your posting is slightly confused in that you seem to be asking if enlightenment can end your 'doing' OCD ?

What I mean is that sometimes it feels that perhaps the only way to end this is to completely dissociate from ego, to go on some mad Jed Mckenna style Spiritual Autolysis trip until there is no me. As in, it feels like there is no middle ground. + Would I be wrong in assuming that to be enlightened would mean no OCD? Perhaps conditioning that throws up things from time to time, but they wouldn't be seen to be real, no?

 

quote:Well we can sometimes go from one idea to another without any baggage. The difficulty is trying to use self inquiry as a means to create the jump.

I don't know exactly what you mean here?

 

quote:Living in the moment isn't as straightforward as it sometimes seems to described. It isn't about being at a particular point in time, it is about being disconnected from the very idea of time. It requires total acceptance of the naturalness of thought, yet without any identification.

Again, I don't quite see the link to what I'm saying (sorry) but I understand it. I have had moments of this. Though there wasn't an active "total acceptance of the naturalness of thought, yet without any identification" it was more just a being-ness, seeing through thought.

 

quote:OCD is the firing pin to your path and not a preventative.

I agree , why would anyone want to wake up from a comfortable dream. But at the moment it does feel like it's holding me back, likes it's holding my whole life back.

 

quote:Often we need to crawl before we walk. Like a chick trying to get out of an egg, it is easy to view the inside of the egg as the real world. During this time we identify with memory as real events.

Though I still have some attachment to some memories, I can see through them, recognize them as false.

 

quote:Instead of adding to the confusion by mashing up some meditation and inquiry as a means of flying from the situation (whatever that might be) I suggest that finding a skilled NLP practitioner that uses time line therapy to do what is referred to as a 'break through session'.

Are you suggesting that I stop AYP/stop practising altogether? + I am not actively doing self inquiry as a regular part of my practice, it just comes up from time to time. Also I'm not doing meditation to fly from the situation, I am just keeping up my practice with the thought that as Jeff has said, the inner silence will grow and help me see through/deal with the OCD. My friend is an NLP practitioner, I don't know how good he is, he's asked if I can teach/direct him with regards to Yoga etc (I qualified as a Yoga teacher [not that that is necessary for guiding directing]). Perhaps he cold do this for me? Otherwise I don't have the money for paying for any support at the moment. Luckily the counsellor/psychologist at the uni is free.

 

quote:This would reduce your anxiety and fears around your beliefs and allow you to settle more easily into meditation without expectations.

I don't see how it could to be honest, though I could be wrong. The fears/beliefs are more like habits that have developed (that are based in rational reasoning), that need to be broken. Again, I don't know how NLP would work in this way, from what I know of it, but I could be wrong. I am not hanging too much on meditation, though I think it may help, is there anything wrong with this?

 

quote:I hope I have read your post correctly, sometimes it's difficult, but it seems like you need to get rid of some baggage first as I did.

I'm not sure you have, but I can't know . What exactly do you mean by baggage? And isn't that part of the process of purification through AYP SBP, DM? Apart from this current issue I am pretty well grounded. My mood isn't badly effected by it, though it does get annoying sometime.

Thank you for your suggestions. I hope I don't seem... irritated in my reply, just unclear on a lot of what you said and trying to clarify.

Love, Gratitude

[11jono11]

quote:Hi Jono,

Made it to the end your post, and while long, it was a little more clear.

While your OCD/Ego vs. "opening" point makes sense, I would agree with Karl's "crawl before we walk" suggestion. Also, you quoted Escapado with "little spark of the inner silence" and I think that is very relevant. Continuing to practice DM & SBP, should help that "little spark of the inner silence" to grow. As you spend more time there, fear recedes. Over time that state becomes 24/7 and things become very peaceful.

Yeap, I agree.

 

quote:Facing your fears with counseling should be helpful. But everything rarely happens with a big bang. Surrender sounds easy, but true surrender is very hard. The first step is learning to accept yourself. After that, everything gets a little easier. Have a good weekend.

Peace & Love,

Jeff

Also, agreed. I can't remember where he wrote it, and correct me if I'm wrong, but to quote Yogani: "By the yard life is hard, by the inch it's a cinch" (Never heard it before, brilliant).

Love, Gratitude

[karl]

Hi again Jon,

I'm asking so that I can get clarity. It's more difficult than face to face. Just to understand where you are at in the process.

You don't have to give up doing anything to work with a therapist. Ask your friend if he has been taught the technique of time line therapy. It's usually included in most good NLP trainings. Your belief system is built on memories, all are distorted in some way. Some of these memories appear to go a long way back and can cross generations. Disconnecting the emotion from the memory for the very first event and all subsequent reinforcing events is the goal of TLT. This is the baggage.

Disappearance of the ego was the reason I started AYP. Along the way I understood that it wasn't a goal at all. Ego is just another thought, but that is far easier to say than to know. Everything is just a big bunch of meaningless thoughts that we give meaning to. We look for meaning, for patterns where there are none . So, losing the Ego is impossible because it can just recreate itself in another form.....I am Zen master, I am guru etc.

Learning to live with and love what is, to surrender, to realise there is no control, that everything is meaningless allows the terrifying ride to become a fair ground to play in. Far from shutting out it is a deeper acceptance, a true love of everything because the truth is that love is really all there is.

You cannot become what you already are. You mentioned the sense of beingness. This is what you really are, it is easy to skim the surface of this 'beingness'. To regard it as a shadow of reality. It is staying constantly with that sense that opens the door and let's the light enter the dark room of illusion. Once the objects can be viewed in the full light of love they can be seen as beautiful creations.

You probably experienced this as a child. Something in a darkened room appeared monstrous. When the morning came it turned out to be your favourite cuddly toy. You can bring the much more potent light out and use it in a similar way to illuminate all the false thoughts and ideas. This beingness isn't a shadow, it is deep and abiding, it is your true nature.

It is difficult to explain without resorting to object descriptions such as light. It really isn't like that but it might help to clarify........trouble is that you then go looking for the concept of light this is why none duality talk seems so annoying as it tries to skirt 'meaning' and allow natural self discovery without conceptual ideas.

This posting now seems like a lump of cold spaghetti fell off a plate[] maybe there is something that you can pick over, maybe there is bugger all worth reading, wouldn't surprise me as these days my posts write themselves.

I totally understand if you get frustrated, been there and done that, it's just how it is so no offence is taken. If it seems to help it's good, if it doesn't help at all that's also good.

[BuddhiHermit]

What I was pointing to, is that it seems you are far too willing to surrender. When I read and hear your words about surrender, I hear "giving up", "die", "disappear", "lose the ego". Every person's needs are different. Death may be the final barrier, but I don't believe it's the right bridge for you to try to cross now.

"<<Overcoming this, surrendering to this to me feels like surrendering to Death, surrendering to Nothingness. It would be a cool thing to be able to do, a big opening (perhaps one of the biggest openings) >>" - No, this would prove to be one of the biggest closings instead. You would be thrown back to the beginning, and have to start all over again.

What you need instead is more presence, more ego, and more of it here. Your OCD is working hard to bring you into the present, instead of letting you fade away like a ghost. I guess I get the feeling you are a little fade-prone. I also keep getting the impression that the OCD, is a drastic effort by your Self, to keep you alive and bring you back Here, even though you don't really know what "Here" is.

Embrace life, and being alive, together with all the ecstatic plus 'grotty' bits that come with it, and for now, put aside any and all lofty ideals. Enlightenment is one foot in Heaven, and one foot in Hell - You are trying to put both feet into Heaven, and your psyche is rebelling as a result.

As for the Guru bit, don't worry about it. You are graced with a deep connection to your 'higher mind' and that kind of connection always delivers the kind of wise words you are experiencing. Yet those wise words are not yours, and you do not live them - You only deliver them. You can use this wisdom on yourself and your situation.

You are lost in a swamp. It's dark, and any false step will lead to drowning. You've been there so long, that you begin to wonder if you shouldn't just surrender to the darkness and the water - but you hesitate, because you've heard that a pathway out does exist. A storm brews, and as the wind and rain lash at you, lightning flashes.

Tell me, will you choose to admire the beauty of the lightning, while sinking slowly down, or will you use it's light to find the path?

Namaste

[11jono11]

Thank you for your help and suggestions guys.

I am making progress with Samyama, in practice and in daily life.

I'll explain more soon.

Love and Gratitude