Adyashanti Intensive

[kami]

Hi Christi,

Actually, I have not heard Adya say one way or another about unity not being ecstasy, etc. Also, I'm not aware of him pretending it never happened. No authentic teacher sits around talking about their awakening unless asked. As I said in my very first post, his teachings complement AYP practices in my opinion. But this is how I feel about other teachers I'm strongly drawn to, and they range from pure Advaitic to mystical. Maybe I am drawn to those because they gel with my practices (which happen to be eclectic as well).

This thread was about my experience at the weekend intensive with him. We all resonate with certain people, certain teachers. You don't seem to resonate with him, which is perfectly ok. Actually he talks a lot about "transmission", a Zen tradition thing. It is not transmission of energy or shaktipat, but a subtle nonverbal understanding beyond minds and words. I experience that with his teachings - it is the same when I interact with Yogani about something. It is not the words, the explanation or logic behind it. It is a heart-centered thing. It either does or does not happen with specific teachers.

Thank you for sharing.

Namaste.

[jeff]

Hi Christi,

Thank you for the lesson recommendations. I find it very challenging to try to compare words like "unity"  and "everythingness". When the descriptions come from different perspectives/traditions, how does one know that they are describing the same thing? Or, maybe the "depth" of the same thing?

Best wishes, Jeff

[chas]

Hi All,

Kami, thank you for sharing your experience at the Adya retreat.

quote:Originally posted by Christi

Hi Kami,

To me there is nothing wrong with someone being embarrassed- it's just a sign of being human. It is good to see Adya talking about his kundalini awakening because it got a little glossed over in some of his books, maybe because of the publishers wanting to put a certain angle on his teachings, or maybe because Adya didn't see it as being important at the time?. Maybe he is recognising the importance of it more now in hindsight? I have been a big fan of Adya for several years now but this video was the first time I have heard him mention his kundalini awakening.

 

Christi, like you, I've also been a fan of Adyashanti for several years. If kundalini has been "glossed over" in Adya's books, it may have more to do with the tradition and practices that he is familiar with and his focus and talents as a teacher.

As I'm sure you are aware, Adya's primary teacher was Arvis Justi, who was a student of Taizan Maezumi Roshi of the Zen Center of Los Angeles. The retreats that he attended as a student were also of the Zen tradition. Based on this, a couple questions might be pertinent: Was Adya familiar with kundalini during his time as a student? I would guess he likely was. Did he have formal training in practices aimed at awakening kundalini? I doubt that he did.

Still, I haven't seen instances where he avoids the subject of kundalini. I attended a satsang of his a couple years ago in Austin, TX, where it was brought up. While I don't recall what exactly was said, I remember he talked about it in similar terms of what Kami shared above: "There is no denying that there is an energetic component to awakening." His comments seemed to be spot on in the context of what was being discussed.

A hypothetical question, Christi: if you were in Adyashanti's position, and likely had little or no training in kundalini theory and practices, would you write or instruct extensively on the subject?

[Christi]

Hi Kami,

 

quote:Actually, I have not heard Adya say one way or another about unity not being ecstasy, etc.

I didn't mean that Adya would say that unity (oneness, or everythingness in his language) is not a state of ecstasy, but rather that he would say that ecstasy is not a pre-requisite to the attainment of unity. In fact I believe he would say that nothing is a pre-requisite to the attainment of unity other than sincerity.

 

quote: Also, I'm not aware of him pretending it never happened.

Again, I think you slightly misunderstood what I was saying there. It is not that he has ever pretended something did not happen which in fact did happen, it is just that he downplays the fact of his kundalini awakening, at least in his books, to the extent that the reader could almost imagine that it never happened at all. There is one line in one of his books which goes something like: "...and then I had some kundalini symptoms". I can't quote the exact words as I gave the book away to a friend.

 

quote:This thread was about my experience at the weekend intensive with him. We all resonate with certain people, certain teachers. You don't seem to resonate with him, which is perfectly ok.

Actually I think Adya is a great teacher. We both studied in the same tradition- Buddhism, and our paths have been very similar. He studied zen, whereas I studied Theravada Buddhism, but in practice there is almost no difference.

It is great to hear about your retreat intensive with him. Thanks for sharing it with us all.

Christi

[Christi]

quote:Originally posted by jeff

Hi Christi,

Thank you for the lesson recommendations. I find it very challenging to try to compare words like "unity"  and "everythingness". When the descriptions come from different perspectives/traditions, how does one know that they are describing the same thing? Or, maybe the "depth" of the same thing?

Best wishes, Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I guess, go beyond the mind, come to a place of unity, and see for yourself. All there will be, will be everything(ness). Nothing will be missing.

[Christi]

Hi Chas,

 

quote:A hypothetical question, Christi: if you were in Adyashanti's position, and likely had little or no training in kundalini theory and practices, would you write or instruct extensively on the subject?

Once someone has been through a kundalini awakening, they don't really need formal training in it as they will know everything from direct experience.

I think the reason Adya downplays the importance of the process of kundalini and the whole energetic side of awakening has to do with something deeper than the fact that he was not trained in it and it is not a part of the zen tradition.

Ramana maharshi once experienced nirvikalpa samadhi and went on to become enlightened. He then said that nirvikalpa samadhi was a necessary pre-requisite for the attainment of enlightenment. Then, a few years later he said that nirvikalpa samadhi was not a pre-requisite for the attainment of enlightenment. One of his disciples said to him: "hang on a minute, a few years ago you said it was, and now you are saying it is not, what's going on" (I'm paraphrasing here). So Ramana said: "In order for the teachings of advaita vedanta to be true, nothing can be necessary for the attainment of enlightenment".

So it wasn't that Ramana Maharshi changed his mind, or realized that he had been mistaken earlier, it was to do with teaching method. I think the same thing goes with Adya, that he does not want people to grasp on to energy experiences so to avoid that, he downplays the energetic aspect of awakening. So I think it is a teaching method thing rather than a lack of training thing.

[kami]

quote:Originally posted by Christi



 

quote:Actually, I have not heard Adya say one way or another about unity not being ecstasy, etc.

I didn't mean that Adya would say that unity (oneness, or everythingness in his language) is not a state of ecstasy, but rather that he would say that ecstasy is not a pre-requisite to the attainment of unity. In fact I believe he would say that nothing is a pre-requisite to the attainment of unity other than sincerity.

Hi Christi,

And this exactly where I resonate with Adya and have a different perspective than you. I do, in fact, agree whole-heartedly with him that there is no pre-set prerequisite for awakening. Certainly not ecstasy, not bliss, not siddhis. The Vedas and Upanishads, the ultimate authority on the subject, don't refer to such pre-requisites. The Bhagavad Gita, the distillation of the Upanishads, describes paths, but when it comes to pre-requisite, I'm certain of only one thing - Grace. We can argue all we want but there is nobody that can prove that cultivating ecstasy will definitely lead to the experience of unity. It may work for you, but that was not Adya's path.

As Chas mentioned, cultivation of ecstatic conductivity was not Adya's method. But energetic opening was (as it always seems to be) associated with his awakening. He is guiding people along the lines of what worked for him.

There are countless ways to get to "it". As soon as the One decides to experience Itself via a particular body-mind, It will, by It's own Grace. All else is speculation until That happens.

[kami]

quote:Originally posted by kami

quote:Originally posted by Christi



 

quote:Actually, I have not heard Adya say one way or another about unity not being ecstasy, etc.

I didn't mean that Adya would say that unity (oneness, or everythingness in his language) is not a state of ecstasy, but rather that he would say that ecstasy is not a pre-requisite to the attainment of unity. In fact I believe he would say that nothing is a pre-requisite to the attainment of unity other than sincerity.

Hi Christi,

And this exactly where I resonate with Adya and have a different perspective than you. I do, in fact, agree whole-heartedly with him that there is no pre-set prerequisite for awakening. Certainly not ecstasy, not bliss, not siddhis. The Vedas and Upanishads, the ultimate authority on the subject, don't refer to such pre-requisites.

As Chas mentioned, cultivation of ecstatic conductivity was not Adya's method. But energetic opening was (as it always seems to be) associated with his awakening. He is guiding people along the lines of what worked for him.

There are countless ways to get to "it". As soon as the One decides to experience Itself via a particular body-mind, It will, by It's own Grace. All else is speculation until That happens.

[Christi]

Hi Kami,

 

quote:And this exactly where I resonate with Adya and have a different perspective than you. I do, in fact, agree whole-heartedly with him that there is no pre-set prerequisite for awakening. Certainly not ecstasy, not bliss, not siddhis. The Vedas and Upanishads, the ultimate authority on the subject, don't refer to such pre-requisites. The Bhagavad Gita, the distillation of the Upanishads, describes paths, but when it comes to pre-requisite, I'm certain of only one thing - Grace.

But that is just a point of view. When there is stillness and silence present in the mind, the one thing that can prevent the transition to unity is attachment to a point of view. A point of view is "I think this... you think that... and so we are separate", and heaven and Earth are set infinitely apart.

Unity comes when the last point of view is dropped. The person, who previously held points of view becomes transparent, almost non-existent, and what is real, remains.

What I was saying above is that Adya is completely correct, that there is nothing that is necessary for the realization of unity. Here it is:

 

quote:Adya is completely right in saying that unity has nothing to do with energy or with bliss or with ecstasy.

So the Upanishads are right, as are the Vedas, as is the BhagavadGita and Adya and you. But when there is attachment to that point of view as being the only right point of view, then there is a contraction in the mind which prevents the opening into unity from taking place.

In unity, Adyashanti does not exist, and neither do the Vedas, nor the Upanishads, nor the Gita. There are no paths, or teachings. There are no points of view. Nobody resonates with anybody else. It is a supreme state, beyond the divisions of the mind.

What I was saying above is that it is just as true to say that unity results in a state of ecstatic bliss as it is to say that ecstatic bliss results in unity. It may not say that in the Upanishads or the Vedas or the BhagavadGita, but it also does not say that it is not true.  

All the best,

Christi

[chas]

quote:Originally posted by Christi

Hi Chas,

 

quote:A hypothetical question, Christi: if you were in Adyashanti's position, and   little or no training in kundalini theory and practices, would you write extensively on the subject?

Once someone has been through a kundalini awakening, they don't really need formal training in it as they will know everything from direct experience.

 That seems a bit dubious. According to that logic, anyone who has been through a spontaneous kundalini awakening,  kundalini awakening via substances, premature crown practices, and every other method are well qualified to write and teach kundalini theory and associated practices, since they "know everything from direct experience".

It is possible that Adya doesn't want folks grasping at energy experiences and thus downplays the importance of kundalini awakening. But as mentioned, that hasn't been my (and others') experience with him in person.  Perhaps we should ask him. He might have something to say about his methods.

Regardless, I haven't seen anything indicating he has experience with spinal breathing or its variations, mudras and bandhas, mantra meditation, etc... His background includes a  traditional Zen approach according to many of his publications.

[Christi]

Hi Chas

 

quote:

That seems a bit dubious. According to that logic, anyone who has been through a spontaneous kundalini awakening, kundalini awakening via substances, premature crown practices, and every other method are well qualified to write and teach kundalini theory and associated practices, since they "know everything from direct experience".

When I said they would "know everything from direct experience", I meant they would know everything about the process of their own awakening from direct experience. They could write extensively on the subject based on that if they wanted to, and teach others about it.

I didn't say anything about teaching "kundalini theory or associated practices". They may or may not know about that.

 

quote:Regardless, I haven't seen anything indicating he has experience with spinal breathing or its variations, mudras and bandhas, mantra meditation, etc... His background includes a traditional zazen approach according to many of his publications.

To awaken kundalini you do not need to use pranayama, or mudras or bandhas or mantras. Basic meditation is enough. It was in Adya's case, and in mine also.

Christi

[jeff]

quote:Originally posted by Christi

quote:Originally posted by jeff

Hi Christi,

Thank you for the lesson recommendations. I find it very challenging to try to compare words like "unity"  and "everythingness". When the descriptions come from different perspectives/traditions, how does one know that they are describing the same thing? Or, maybe the "depth" of the same thing?

Best wishes, Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I guess, go beyond the mind, come to a place of unity, and see for yourself. All there will be, will be everything(ness). Nothing will be missing.

Hi Christi,

I think we may have a difference on what it means to go "beyond the mind". Everythingness and oneness are still an aspect of mind (or universal mind). I have found all "thingness" to be of the mind.

Best wishes, Jeff

[kami]

Hi Christi,
Ok. Perhaps we have been misunderstanding each other.

My point is exactly what I thought I'd said many times in several posts above - there is no ONE way. Aversion, as you know, is another form of attachment. In this case, there was perceived aversion to Adya's methods.

To be clear about Bhagavan - his enlightenment occurred when he lay down and "played dead". Not after meditating for years and experiencing nirvikalpa samadhi. His teachings, as you know, have nothing about ecstasy. Neither do teachings of Papaji, Nisargadatta, Balsekar, Spira, Lucille, etc. Modern popular teachers like Tolle and Katie don't talk about Kundalini at all. Can we take up an issue with all their methods?

Kriya yoga, the epitome of cultivating ecstasy does not lead everyone to enlightenment, as you know. Neither does self-inquiry - a long time devotee of Bhagavan asked him what to do since he had been inquiring for 30 years without success. Bhagavan said keep doing it for another 30 years!! So what determines who wakes up? Is there such a thing as "the" successful formula? How can we ever assess/measure a totally subjective state like unity? Mother Theresa and Gandhi, the exemplary karma yogis of modern times, felt a tad disillusioned at the end of their lives that they didn't reach what they thought unity was.

How ridiculous to claim this or that way is the only way! This is why, in my personal experience, Grace is the biggest factor - there is absolutely nothing that I can justify doing - not the Bhakti, not the energy to practice, not the experiences that happen. I can lay claim to none of them as "mine". It is only Grace.

Seeing your last post addressed to me, I feel we are perhaps somewhat on the same page.

[Christi]

Hi Jeff,

 

quote:
Hi Christi,

I think we may have a difference on what it means to go "beyond the mind". Everythingness and oneness are still an aspect of mind (or universal mind). I have found all "thingness" to be of the mind.

Best wishes, Jeff

Everythingness and oneness are only aspects of the mind when they are concepts. By "go beyond the mind" I mean go beyond all concepts, all ideas about reality, all thought, all division, all form, even the idea that there is a "you" that can go beyond all these things. Then, everything is seen as one, and that one is not separate from your true Self.

It comes as inner silence expands outwards from the witness to encompass all that is. The boundary between the internal world and the external world collapses as does (in the same moment) the division between the perceived and the perceiver. In this awakening we see that being nothing we are everything.

It is really a process of surrender and letting go. And as Adya would say... grace.

Christi

[chas]

quote:Originally posted by Christi

Hi Chas

 

quote:

That seems a bit dubious. According to that logic, anyone who has been through a spontaneous kundalini awakening, kundalini awakening via substances, premature crown practices, and every other method are well qualified to write and teach kundalini theory and associated practices, since they "know everything from direct experience".

When I said they would "know everything from direct experience", I meant they would know everything about the process of their own awakening from direct experience. They could write extensively on the subject based on that if they wanted to, and teach others about it.

Thank you for clarifying what you meant. I disagree that "they would know everything about the process of their own awakening from direct experience."(emphasis mine) But, I think I see your point now and agree to some extent. I also agree that they could write extensively on their experience if they wanted to.

quote:
I didn't say anything about teaching "kundalini theory or associated practices". They may or may not know about that.

I recognize that you didn't say anything about teaching kundalini theory or associated practices. You said:
 

quote:It is good to see Adya talking about his kundalini awakening because it got a little glossed over in some of his books, maybe because of the publishers wanting to put a certain angle on his teachings, or maybe because Adya didn't see it as being important at the time?. Maybe he is recognising the importance of it more now in hindsight? I have been a big fan of Adya for several years now but this video was the first time I have heard him mention his kundalini awakening.

It was me who said something about kundalini theory and practices when I asked you:

 

quote:A hypothetical question, Christi: if you were in Adyashanti's position, and likely had little or no training in kundalini theory and practices, would you write or instruct extensively on the subject?

(And your reply):
 

quote:Once someone has been through a kundalini awakening, they don't really need formal training in it as they will know everything from direct experience.

To which I replied:

 

quote:

That seems a bit dubious. According to that logic, anyone who has been through a spontaneous kundalini awakening, kundalini awakening via substances, premature crown practices, and every other method are well qualified to write and teach kundalini theory and associated practices, since they "know everything from direct experience".

...

quote:Originally posted by Christi

Yes, that is the interesting thing about Adyashanti, he meditates for years, goes through an intensive kundalini awakening, comes out the other end enlightened and then talks, for the most part, as if it didn't happen and has no relevance. Then occasionally someone asks him about it and he says "Oh yes, that...".

If you could provide a reference for your quotes, it might help establish the accuracy and context in which they were used.

 Anyhow, it seems that you have issues with Adyashanti's approach. I'm wondering what (if anything) would you have done differently if you were in his shoes?