Confused

[karl]

For the last two years I have developed an incredible love of economics. Its not something that has ever been of interest. I can devour huge books with ease and could debate with a professor.

Over this time I have discovered a parallel with yoga. A need to release control, to end the state. Somewhat like the end of thought and stillness of action.

I have as much bahkti for this as I do for enlightenment. Perhaps even more. It feels as if I have a job and purpose on this material level of economic activity. There is no effort in this, it feels wholly natural. Its as if the material affects the spiritual.

There is no money in this, no reward beyond doing what feels right. In fact it appears I'm guided. It feels like being a Noah of modern times, except without building a boat. I read a piece by Albeet J Nock called the remnant. It resonated very strongly.

It seems like I am in the right place. I have stopped practices.

The confusion arises because I feel the need to try and change things.  I use the sutras without having words - difficult to describe for obvious reasons, but its an unconscious, automatic sense of repeating them although without any conscious idea what they are.

I think I have strayed from the path, become attracted to maya. Yogani warned that we shouldn't stop practising yet it doesn't feel exactly like I have. Its more like a change as if I feel God with me.

It feels right, but is it right ? TGIIM that's for certain but I wondered if the compass needle had got a bit stuck ?

[woosa]

Hi Karl

I like to think of practices just like exercise: We know exercise is good for us, but many of us don't do it because we don't feel like doing it -- we think not doing exercise is a better decision. How wrong we are. My belly agrees.

I would only stop practices if there was overloading, or some impending doom. Running out of tea, for instance.

If there is conflict when you sit down to meditate, self pace: do ten minutes of breath meditation only. Over time you might feel like you want to do more, so do a bit more! I know when I have times like that, I cut right down until I feel like I want to do more. When I used to be an avid weight-lifter we used to run into what is known as over-training. You have no painful symptoms, you just feel like you have no interest and energy to do anything. Time to cut back, or have some time off.

I hope my ramblings have helped!

I've become quite interested in economics too (I wonder why? ). Have you watched the Keiser Report? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oYkMLph6NA They both have some interesting thought processes. I have an economics book which I haven't got round to reading -- damn procrastination -- it's right up my street because it has pictures in it . Maybe after reading some of it, I might understand what the hell they are talking about.

All the best!

[tonightsthenight]

Hi Karl, economics sounds fun!

I love knowledge and learning, even if it is all vanity in the end.

One area where continued practice will help you is vairagyam. You talk about having an important purpose here. That is always relative.

Keep the study, let go of the fruits.

Like Woosa, I'd advise you against ceasing practice except to self pace. Maybe its a good phase for you to take a break. But consider getting back to daily practices and practice vairagya.

[karl]

Its the most fun seriously can't get enough, I'm an addict

I should have said I ceased practices some time ago. They seemed superfluous because the stability is now so well founded in my life. Such an enormous leap from where I was that it feels/felt like I should stop for a bit. Smell the flowers, drink the ambrosia. Now comes a small shaking, like a tiny earthquake. I know its telling me its the end of break time, the rest stop is over, time to move on.

I'm reading Osho 'the true name' it speaks of exactly how I'm thinking. Neither more or less, just confirmation. I'm not sure that AYP should be the approach. As if I have wrung out everything from it and its now integrated into everyday. Meditation without formal meditation.

I keep hearing Yogani's words though. That puzzles me. They are strong.

[Bodhi Tree]

Get involved in your community somehow, Karl. That's your next step. After finding refuge and sanctuary in solitude, it's time to emerge and be of service in your local area. You will know the way. Your bhakti will guide you. You have much to offer.

If you're becoming well-versed in economics, you surely can creatively influence some realm of the economy, in a service-oriented way that is infused with divine love.

I have realized there is an endless amount of projects I can engage in, so I must narrow my focus and just try a few. There's no lack of work to be done.

Last night I sat around a fire and played music and drums with a few friends. One of them is a teacher. Another is a massage therapist. Another is a nanny. I do customer service for a non-profit medical company. We all played drums, guitar, and chanted. Lots of fun.

Tonight I'm going to an AA gathering to support more of the helpless drunks. People listen to what I have to say. People can sense the realness of the serene vibration I have cultivated through Deep Meditation. I'm no saint, and there's still plenty of progress to be made, but the persistence of showing up is paying off. The change is undeniable.

What good is personal knowledge (spiritual, economic, or otherwise) if it can't be shared? Expand your personhood like an umbrella of radiance. Personality is a hologram, a reflection of the One. When withdrawing into the Self, we can unfold with more extendability than before. The versatility and dynamic quality of self is improved. More and more, I like Parahamsa Yogananda's term, which is sacred selfishness.

Or, to quote Yogani directly, from Lesson 120:
I am a very selfish person doing all this transmission of knowledge. Yet, my self is becoming more and more in everyone. Your joy is my joy. You can do the same thing in your life. Do your sitting practices, however much and whatever kind you find is good for you, and then go do something good for someone. That is rising enlightenment.

(Now that I have preached, I'm sure the gods of karma will slap me and test me to make sure I am practicing what I'm preaching. All my verbage sounds lovely, but who knows if I'm truly living up to the standard?)

[Etherfish]

Yes, I've been following economics for many years too, because it is a way of enslaving people without their knowledge. Actually it is a way of skimming just a little off the top, but when billions of people are involved,
a little becomes a lot.
I like:

http://mises.org/

It is Austrian economics, and easier to understand than the popular Keynesian, because it is not so full of speculation and imagination, represented in mathematics.
It is considered "fringe" and "wacko" by Keynesian economists, and the media, but we are beginning to see the effects of Maximum Keynesian economics now, and it's not pretty. Keynesian is popular among most economists in the US who are paid, and all who are paid by the government.

[karl]

quote:Originally posted by Etherfish

Yes, I've been following economics for many years too, because it is a way of enslaving people without their knowledge. Actually it is a way of skimming just a little off the top, but when billions of people are involved,
a little becomes a lot.
I like:

http://mises.org/

It is Austrian economics, and easier to understand than the popular Keynesian, because it is not so full of speculation and imagination, represented in mathematics.
It is considered "fringe" and "wacko" by Keynesian economists, and the media, but we are beginning to see the effects of Maximum Keynesian economics now, and it's not pretty. Keynesian is popular among most economists in the US who are paid, and all who are paid by the government.

Yes, I'm Austrian all the way read Mises masterworks, Rothbard, Hazlett, Hayek, Nock even Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.  I've even done voluntary work for the a tax payers alliance. Pounding streets and talking to shoppers about misuse of appropriated funds.

I had the feeling that AYP practitioners might be more skewed towards socialism or Keynes. I should have known better[:I] anyone seriously engaged in self discovery will always discover Austrian economics if they are diligent. Its still a comfort to know that its the case in fact.

Yes, I don't know what next. Something that's for certain. Of course I'm writing anyway and on the second book which now combines science fiction, economics and AYP. Bet no one ever thought to try it. Its coming together very well. Its a proper romp, fast read, exciting, lots of plot lines intersecting. For now its keeping me well occupied. I'm also thinking of children's and women's educational books which fold Austrian economics into cartoon firm ( repeated on YouTube ).

Sacred selfishness......got to look that one up. Osho is inclined that way and now Yogani.

[kami]

Hi Karl,

What is the confusion primarily about - is it that you feel practices are no longer necessary yet somehow you know you're not done with them yet? Do you feel you are "done" with this self-realization/enlightenment thing? Does your interest in economics conflict with openings? I'd say Ayn Rand's philosophy seems to be in direct contrast to what I'm working on. But it has been many years since my obsession with her work (and crush on Howard Roark!!)..

Are your actions arising spontaneously and not driven by conditioning? Have you forgiven others and yourself completely? Do you live in total harmony with nature, others and yourself with absolutely no discordance between intent, thought, feeling and action? Is love your driving force 24/7? If yes to all, perhaps you don't need practices and meditation has become your way of being. If not, I'd say you need to practice something (maybe not AYP). Such ups and downs and periods of perceived stagnation/complacency are commonplace IMO...

Love and peace to you.

[karl]

quote:Originally posted by kami

Hi Karl,

What is the confusion primarily about - is it that you feel practices are no longer necessary yet somehow you know you're not done with them yet? Do you feel you are "done" with this self-realization/enlightenment thing? Does your interest in economics conflict with openings? I'd say Ayn Rand's philosophy seems to be in direct contrast to what I'm working on. But it has been many years since my obsession with her work (and crush on Howard Roark!!)..

Are your actions arising spontaneously and not driven by conditioning? Have you forgiven others and yourself completely? Do you live in total harmony with nature, others and yourself with absolutely no discordance between intent, thought, feeling and action? Is love your driving force 24/7? If yes to all, perhaps you don't need practices and meditation has become your way of being. If not, I'd say you need to practice something (maybe not AYP). Such ups and downs and periods of perceived stagnation/complacency are commonplace IMO...

Love and peace to you.

My natural obsession has been perfection. That part of my nature remains to some extent and around AYP. Its like learning with a master and not being sure of when I should move directly to God. When do I know I'm good enough to listen to God. Do I need to undergo more practices to attain perfection in order to stand in front of God. To be worthy, to bow low enough, to love enough, to worship correctly .

Yet I know its blossoming within, the buds and flowers are starting. Yet I'm almost scared that a lack-practices- of care will screw that up. Then I think it might be over caring that is equally damaging. I'm not sure I can feel done with enlightenment. Like a bird being pushed from the nest-perhaps just on more worm will make the difference between flight and falling. I know that this is a test- that falling or flying are the same and nothing can help that realisation further.

I have been learning drums for several years. My tutor told me I has learned all there was to know. It was up to me to get out and play drums. It was like being abandoned. Surely I needed more practice. He insisted I didn't. That the best practice was now to play.

I feel free Kami. I don't feel bound by anything. Sometimes something will grate-.some frustration, or anxiety, but it goes when I allow it to be with me. I expect it will always be like that. It is with every aspect of life. Just like drumming. There will always be something tricky which will engage the mind and annoy for a time until it is mastered, or until it is known it cannot be mastered.

I have forgiven everything and everyone. I see all things as one thing. All are God. I see him everywhere now, but still sometimes I go deaf and don't listen for a while. I scold myself for the in attention.

Love is the driving force. Love is all there is. Sometimes I'm so filled up with it that it must leak out or I'm going to drown.

So the conflict is more about the carrying on of practices which seems like its just so its habit, that it might make things just that much clearer, stronger, easier.

[kami]

Such beautiful words, Karl. I learn something from you in every single interaction. Thank you.

Perfection - ahh I understand this so well. I am a perfectionist.. Nothing I take on is done half heartedly, every detail scrutinized and worked on in a fashion that borders on OCD. But, having children began the healing process for perfectionism. Some time ago, I heard myself lecturing my children that anything worth doing must be done "perfectly". Not missing a beat, one asked, "Your perfect or mine?" As I doubled over in laughter, I realized the profound teaching in those words - "perfect" inherently brings about separateness, of "I-ness", a narrow perspective through the "my way" lens. When I simply rest and let an action flow through me, it is always perfect, in that it benefits everyone concerned. When I fret about "doing it" perfectly, although it might bring a false sense of satisfaction for having done a job "well", it binds me into identification as the separate self. Not karma yoga by any means.

Perhaps it is a matter of how each of us on the path views things, but in my (simplistic) understanding, there is no conflict in freedom. Whenever I experience conflict, even at a subtle level, it is a sign of discordance and a gentle pointing of the inner guru to see the obstacle to freedom. The way I see it presently (always subject to change) is that on the spiritual path, there is no end to opening. Practices are thus always going to be necessary. Yogani continues to practice twice daily, like "clockwork" as he says. The best musicians continue to practice; when they perform, it is against that backdrop of practice and Grace that the audience is moved to great heights of ecstasy and joy from the music that seems to flow effortlessly through them.

Read a great quote recently, paraphrasing it since I don't remember the exact words - "the self-effort of yesterday is what appears as Grace today."

Much love.

[karl]

Yes beautifully put

Its resolved

Thank you all so much for being supportive. It just needed that little bit of help to jump out, a steadying hand and encouragement.

[Bodhi Tree]

quote:Originally posted by kami

Such beautiful words, Karl. I learn something from you in every single interaction. Thank you.

Perfection - ahh I understand this so well. I am a perfectionist.. Nothing I take on is done half heartedly, every detail scrutinized and worked on in a fashion that borders on OCD. But, having children began the healing process for perfectionism. Some time ago, I heard myself lecturing my children that anything worth doing must be done "perfectly". Not missing a beat, one asked, "Your perfect or mine?" As I doubled over in laughter, I realized the profound teaching in those words - "perfect" inherently brings about separateness, of "I-ness", a narrow perspective through the "my way" lens. When I simply rest and let an action flow through me, it is always perfect, in that it benefits everyone concerned. When I fret about "doing it" perfectly, although it might bring a false sense of satisfaction for having done a job "well", it binds me into identification as the separate self. Not karma yoga by any means.

Perhaps it is a matter of how each of us on the path views things, but in my (simplistic) understanding, there is no conflict in freedom. Whenever I experience conflict, even at a subtle level, it is a sign of discordance and a gentle pointing of the inner guru to see the obstacle to freedom. The way I see it presently (always subject to change) is that on the spiritual path, there is no end to opening. Practices are thus always going to be necessary. Yogani continues to practice twice daily, like "clockwork" as he says. The best musicians continue to practice; when they perform, it is against that backdrop of practice and Grace that the audience is moved to great heights of ecstasy and joy from the music that seems to flow effortlessly through them.

Read a great quote recently, paraphrasing it since I don't remember the exact words - "the self-effort of yesterday is what appears as Grace today."

Much love.

Beautifully said. Thank you.

That makes me think of the cliché: "Practice makes perfect." Or, in AA: "Progress, not perfection." In both cases, we are pursuing the limitless, within the confines of limited parameters. Perfection is something strived for, but never attained. It is the striving that moves us forward.

To accept a limitless future is true surrender, in my opinion. Maybe the "conflict" or "discordance" is just a lack of recognition of this boundless potential. When I am conflicted, I inevitably feel confined. When I feel free, there is a leaning towards expansion.

[Radharani]

Dear Karl,
You said "it's resolved" so apparently all is good.  But your discussion has prompted me to share my own experience re: stopping practices and what has happened.

Since a few years ago I've been feeling the immediate presence of God all the time, a feeling of freedom, total Love pouring through me, etc., etc. (you know).  But I've continued doing my practice for the sheer delight of it; as my teacher says, "yoga is a discipline of pleasure."  I will tend to fall into a meditative state whenever I'm not actively "doing" anything else specific, even though yeah, technically nobody is "doing" anything .  Well, over the last year, especially the last few months due to illness, exhaustion and working long hours, I haven't been able to keep up with my practice as much as I'd like, and I've noticed an interesting phenomenon.  Last week was extremely stressful and over the last couple of days I feel like I've "lost it" although technically I know there's nothing to lose and nobody to lose it and really nothing has changed except my perception.  However, it FEELS different.  Normally I just go along cheerfully doing my damndest in the face of the untenable circumstances (as my mom used to say, "Just do your best, that's really all we can do!") and feeling like everything is ok, it's all in God's hands.  Well as of Saturday I was completely worn down and took a good hard look at the situation (financially, etc.) and I was like, "omg, this is REALLY f*ng bad!" and I felt quite anxious and upset about it (despite knowing that it's maya).  That never happens when I'm doing my practice, hasn't happened in about the last 3 years.

So, here's the strange thing:  My cynical side questions whether maybe the yogic state is a delusion, a sort of self-hypnosis whereby I've fooled myself into feeling that "everything is ok" when in fact, it clearly is NOT ok?  Maybe "reality" is this acute anxious awareness of what is in fact happening in the human drama in which I find myself?!

I've decided to continue my yoga practice in any case, because even if the above was true, it won't make any difference!  i.e., residing in Oneness has not prevented me from being motivated or doing what needs to be done (however futile my activity may be), and experiencing the full impact of maya the last couple of days has not benefited me in any way; in fact, if anything it's actually kind of paralyzing, reminiscent of how life was before, from what I can remember.  The grace of God is unchanging and He hasn't gone anywhere, but yoga practice is the means for me to remain in that awareness.  So, I need to make time for it.

of course, I'm not saying that this applies to you or anybody else; we each have our own experience of it.  just sharing!  All the best to you, bro.  BTW can you please post the link to your book again?  thx.  

[karl]

I realised I had gone down a dead end. It was necessary that several lessons were learned. Everything I know is nothing. Everything accumulated is dust. Even meditation when done for the wrong reasons can become a burden.

Practice isn't something to be done for myself. Not to attain, achieve, accomplish. I had stopped practising for the wrong reasons as much as I had been practising for the wrong reasons.

It is communion without self. For the pureness  of that communion. It is worship and not worshipping.

Thank you for sharing your experience. I understand I see it. The same thing occurring within you. Just know a dead end when you see it. Know it by the confusion and conflict it evokes. The right path can never have conflict, it is the easier to find, but harder to accept, or believe.

It is a tiny space between riches and rags. When off by the merest amount it will be felt as resistance. The obvious way seem the most unlikely. How can it be that simple ? Surely more will be needed says the ego ? A different option, more knowledge first, harder practice, different practice. I missed it by a mile and retraced the steps to the beginning knowing what the wrong path now looks like.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Square-Peg-In-Round-Hole-ebook/dp/B00F921AKI

[CarsonZi]

quote:Originally posted by karl

The right path can never have conflict, it is the easier to find, but harder to accept, or believe.

"The right path..."  Can there be a wrong path?

"The right path can never have conflict..." Is there ANY path that has no conflict?  Conflict is critical in my experience as it highlights our hangups and brings our misperceptions to light through suffering.

Love,
Carson