Why I don't believe in meditation

[david_obsidian]

Gumpi,

just to clarify some things.  There are big differences in what people experience and get from meditation.  Some people seem to experience nothing at all,  others a lot.  If you're experiencing definite relaxation, you are somewhere in between.

The people who are experiencing more (chakras etc.) aren't imagining it -- you just haven't experienced that.  There are good reasons why I believe that but I won't get into them here.  However,  I believe that you are right that the interpretation that people have of these things is probably not accurate.

The yoga 'body of knowledge' can rightly be called a folklore and a sacro-mythology right now.  It is not by any means a precise science yet as we understand the term. This doesn't mean that it's garbage, just not as precise as we expect in our modern way of thinking.  Years ago, people still knew that the sun was 'coming up' in the morning, even as they wrongly thought that it was revolving around the earth.

I think you're probably right that people are not levitating.  I haven't seen a shred of evidence that anyone is.

As for enlightenment,  well, I think it's real as a set of processes, having experienced some of them myself.  However, the yoga folklore may still have an inaccurate picture of what that process is. The Perfectly Realized Master-Siddha, as a concept, is I believe, probably mistaken.  I've talked about this a lot.  The belief in that one can play out quite negatively too.  In practice, leaders of Yoga-related sacro-mythical groups play to the belief in their status as the Perfectly Realized Master-Siddha, and all sorts of problems follow.

As for self-hypnosis, I don't know why you fix on that one.  Did self-hypnosis convince you that you got relaxed, or did you really get relaxed?  Why does self-hypnosis appear to be the only explanation for these phenomena?

[themysticseeker]

I have to agree on one point. Learning yoga from books or even on line is difficult. Having a live teacher from a strong lineage is nice, makes things a little easier. Yogani does the best job I've seen of writing the instructions for kundalini practice. With such a wide audience, he is not available for one to one guru help. Plus he wants to be anonymous. It's nice to find a dharma or yoga friend who you can go see, talk to, have tea and soak up some healthy vibes. This is why I like monks and nuns...

Love,

TMS

[gumpi]

David,

I only have a small window of time to respond right now but i will answer or try to answer your last questions.

No, relaxation has got nothing to do with hypnosis.

Self hypnosis appears TO ME to be the only explanation of spiritual phenomena because TO ME they don't exist.  Even if they did exist they wouldn't be the same for me as for anyone else.  So i cannot agree that they exist.  Therefore i either ignore their existence or i account for them as being particular brain states of other people.  It isn't hard to imagine that other people's brains are different to mine, and therefore they experience things i don't.  But i draw the line when it comes to actual objective facts and psychological experiences.  

[themysticseeker]

Discursive thoughts (the constant recitals "this is this; this is that") cloud the common awareness, the common sense, if you will. The common awareness is the wisdom aspect of mind that must be awakened, maintained and allowed to mature. This is the essence of all buddhist teaching. Buddha is a wisdom mind that encompasses all phenomena.

This is the highest of all teachings. Do you understand?

All the practices in the world of yoga are to accomplish the awakening of wisdom: to understand the world as it is, not as we want it to be.

Love,

TMS

[ymladris]

quote:Originally posted by gumpi


Self hypnosis appears TO ME to be the only explanation of spiritual phenomena because TO ME they don't exist.  

hi gumpi,
i am very interested in question "why some methods work on somebody but not on somebody else". from my point of view it's a big topic for applied spiritual science ;-).

have you been analyzing this from your point view? Like, do you know some other people with 'zero' access to 'spiritual phenomena'? and what are common characteristics? Would you mind sharing more about that guy 'Gumpi'? ;-)
1) are you 'devotional' (passionately or eagerly following something; like sport, science, hobby, whatever)?
2) i assume you are sceptic? (same here ;-))
3) what is your relation to art or other totally subjective things?
4) ... what do you think is the feature of Gumpi, related?

I am interested in reality not in scenery, too ;-). Scenery is just scenery; impermanent and empty . But, all phenomena are scenery, not just the spiritual ones. Could you please more elaborate on the concept of 'reality' - what are you looking for? what aspects the 'thing' must possess for you to be 'real'?

have a nice day

-- Mirka

[anthony574]

Gumpi,

A few things I would like to point out.

"self hypnosis". What is it to you? If it is the ability to create a sense of experience of something that to the invidivual registers as 100% true, but to others may not be true or not able to be proven...and that is an invalid spiritual experience...then you believe that there is ONE reality for everyone. You do not subscribe to the idea that we create our own realities, however you want to take that. If you believe in the One Reality model then you would have to accept the idea that yoga is a way to see beyond this model. If you like that model of uniform and concrete reality and it makes you happy (doesn't seem like it does) then go with it. If you intuit or have faith that there is something beyond it - keep seeking. You actually make me feel a bit better about myself in that I thought I was the poster child of overanalysis and "getting in my own way".

I also notice that you are extremely inconsistent...more and more so. A month or so ago you posted a wonderful encouraging post about how practice and consistency is important and not analyzing the results. Then, less than a week later you post about how practices are bogus and all that matters is devotion to God. Now, you say God is self-hypnosis.

What are you seeking with spiritual practice? are you hoping to calm the mind and discipline your thoughts with an open mindset as to what may lay ahead of this? Were you convinced at some point of what is beyond the thoughts and were striving to achieve it with a pretty dead-set idea of what you would eventually arrive at?

If you truly believe everything you have stated on this thread, then do you continue your practices...perhaps it is a blessing because now you stop having expectations? Do you completely stop? Is it even possible?

[Etherfish]

I will play the devil's advocate here:
What if it IS all self-hypnosis?
First of all, NOTHING can be proven and that applies to every subject, not just spirituality.
If you have studied geometry, you know that the only way things can be "proven" is by first agreeing upon certain basic assumptions that CAN'T BE PROVEN!

Our entire normal reality is based upon inputs we receive through our senses which are sent to our brain by electrical impulse. Since there is way too much information to process, our brain throws most of the inputs out, and processes only some. What gets thrown out is different in different people.
So from a scientific point of view, there is no way to directly experience reality!
So naturally when Patanjali writes of directly experiencing an object, scientific minds will say there is no proof. That is because science has yet to establish any assumptions in regards to experiencing reality beyond the normal senses.

But even the "proofs" that are generally accepted by science are suspect because 1) Everyone filters their excess input differently, and 2) They are built upon assumptions that haven't been proven!

So it is quite likely that even "normal reality" is a sort of self hypnosis. So let's compare a couple different types of self hypnosis:

1) A person discovers that twice daily meditation is making profound changes for the good in his life.

2) Another person says meditation is hogwash. It is not possible for anything to improve his life.
He constantly looks for solid evidence that some new kind of input from the outside could improve his life, but can never find anything good enough. He is so afraid that he may be fooling himself that he takes no action. And yet he doesn't realize he is constantly fooling himself.

[karl]

quote:Originally posted by natalie

quote:Originally posted by karl

quote:Originally posted by natalie

i do agree meditation is the biggest load of hog wash that was ever created, i have read books and books and have tried it, dont tell me to keep trying it will come i have done everything.  I did believe in it till i tried it.  it is total crap and as far as i am concerned it is a money making racket.......I am more than convinced that these "people" that claim what they have experienced,  be it past life, physic etc.......it is all dreams that they believe are real.....they cannot seperate fantasy from reality........
 
You people must seriously wake up it is such a joke.  You like "meditation" zombies....I do now find it so hestrical......

But then again i actually feel very sorry for you guys as you are obviously searching for something in your life.  So you believe in your dreams..

It is a pity because their are many people out there that actually believe i should know as i was one of them.  Thank goodness i woke up.

What are you doing here Natalie ?
We all knew you would end up posting on here eventually, we have worked so hard for this day and finally it happened.

and you know why your here don't you. How you found this forum. Why you wrote your story here with such conviction.

Are you trying to save us from ourselves ? Most of us already know it's hopeless, it's only you that still has that hope.

[cosmic_troll]

quote:Originally posted by natalie

wow, i see by my comments on meditation , and my experience  i have upset a number of people.........that was not intended.

Hi Natalie, your comments are more than welcome here. And so are you . Your experience with meditation is perhaps more common than what is reflected on these forums. You were merely the one to voice it.

This discussion is important because it allows us to take a look at ourselves and question/appreciate/validate/etc. our own practice and see if this is where we want to be. And if we are free thinking people, then "opposing" views are not a threat, but a blessing because we can learn from them and take or leave what fragment of truth may be there.

If you are convinced that meditation is bogus and has no value, then there is no practical help anyone can offer. It will just lead to lively debates like this one . On the other hand, if you decide to give meditation another chance, you will find that there are a lot of kind people here willing to offer their experiences and support.

Either way, it's a pleasure to have you here. All the best!

With Love
cosmic

[brother neil]

 "If anything they seem like emotionally blunt selfish people with huge egos."
Hmm, you say it is all hypnosis, people are fooling themselves, that since you have tried it and failded that meditation is a failure.  Blunt egoic statements?  funny how we can often times project ourselves onto others.  Being honest, notice I said WE, I have done this MANY times too brother.  so you still looking for scientific facts brother gumpi?  Maybe if meditation is a failure then that means WE dont have to take responsibility for ourselves failing?  Meditation may not be for everyone, maybe some people do karma yoga, some just self inquiry, others just constant awareness.  I live in florida, I can get to georgia walking, riding a bike, riding a train, in a car, in a plane.  SO because walking is not for me then that option is a failure?  who knows, maybe if I meditate enough I can levitate there?  

It is no big deal when you try and spit fire at people, fire burns off impurities and the strong will be left standing.  

I do find it funny how many times you ignore when I have typed about science to you and that there is only one scientific fact, Existence, and then you still try and stick by science when science itself knows the unexplainable variable is the trump card of them all.

so maybe what I have typed is blunt and egoic, I can accept that By the way, what science do you believe in, since you have reffered to science so much?

I laugh because I do love you brother, even when we fight
with love
brother Neil

[brother neil]

just read you long post brother Gumpi
Jesus said "humility is the key to the kingdom of God"  my point, humble people care not to prove themselves.  You think sidhis are some amazing thing, yet you fail to recognize NOTHING is more amazig then the simple fact of existence.  Life, humans, solar systems exist, but levitation is impossible[?]  Your scientific proof for sidhis?  chris angel, the dude from mindfreak.  But then you may say "well that is just a show and he does not really do that"  So once again someone has tried to show and is not believed.  Maybe he does it, maybe he doesnt, but the point is you would not believe it if you saw it so why would someone care to show it to you?  Look up swami nithyanandas brainwave patters, but you may not believe the results there either.  

Again it is like the golf swing.  MOST instructors do not really understand the swing, however there are some that do.  MOST of the students who go to the ones that do not get a good swing, WHY, because they may not believe the truth even when they see it, they may not recognize for their ego may get in the way.  They may not put in some effort that is required, they may not relax enough to see results.  Of course meditation and golf statistics will go all over the charts, The vairables like faith, commitment, sincereity, love, those cannnot be measured.  What matters most in life cannot be measured.  Science has Limits.  
with love to you brother
brother Neil
 

[themysticseeker]

recognize oneself
nothing whatsoever blank
blankness is transparent
the transparency is inexpressible

[Etherfish]

chris angel was dating britney spears; gives a little insight into who he is.

[stevenbhow]

Hi gumpi,

I think you give science too much credit. What is energy? Science can't tell us exactly what it is, what it's base nature is. Therefore, since energy is the basis of everything, science can't really tell us anything can it. Maybe that's why so many spiritual practices advise us to simply surrender. You won't find the truth using your intellect alone.

[Lacinato]

Self-hypnosis is fine with me, as long as it delivers results. Even if it takes awhile, that's all right for me--I want to be okay with just sitting. Maybe it's not for everyone. I personally have to trick myself to get any results because my mind is so stubborn