visualization

[acestaesteuncont]

Hi all,

I am new to this site, meditation and to yoga in general. I read the first lessons and I started daily meditation, twice a day, for 20 minutes. This was 3 or 4 days ago. At first it seemed to be easy and enjoyable to empty my mind and I would feel something going on. However the last two sessions (especially the last one) were very disturbing - in the sense that I couldn't wait for the 20 minutes to be up. Today I only practiced for 10 minutes because I did not have the patience to finish the 20 minutes and it had become a nuisance to just wait for the time to pass.

I find it difficult to empty my mind without visualising something, I think this is the problem. So I tried to visualize the mantra, but then I realized I don't know what the mantra looks like.

What is a good idea to use as a visualization for a beginner? I do not want to stop practice because I had a glimpse of what is beyond, but I am just restless and there is no enjoying watching the clock and waiting for the time to be up.

Thanks in advance.

[Richard]

HI there welcome to the forum and AYP.

You haven't got to struggle to empty your mind just think the mantra!

If you try to empty your mind your mind will rebel against it, read and re-read the lessons an important part of mantra meditation is to just let thoughts rise if they want to and even to have other thoughts at the same time as the mantra, just gently favour the mantra and all will be well. Yogani's inexpensive little book "Deep Meditation" Is excellent for beginners and for anyone come to that have a look on the main site and think about buying it.

You are right to cut back to 10 minutes if twenty seems a strain Keep it at that until it seems right and easy and then think about extending the time to twenty minutes.

Welcome again and all the best

RICHARD

[Jim and His Karma]

The times when it's a nuisance to keep going and you must constantly restart the mantra are the times when the most good work is being done.

We don't meditate because it feels good (though it generally  - if not always - feels good, and gets better in time). We do it because of how it adjusts us in the world later, after practice is done. Don't judge the worth of your practice by how your practice feels, judge it by how the world feels after practice.

But bear in mind that, even in your interaction with the world, a bad day or two or three is not a big deal. Examine your practice: are you overdoing or have you recently added on a new practice? If so, the bad days in the world are your evidence that adjustment is required. If not? Chalk it up to bad days.

But don't ever judge practices by how practices feel. It's a fundamental error. The practices do a lot more deeper good than just making you feel good. Sometimes, as they do their incredible work, negative emotions or anxieties are released. Kiss them goodbye as they exit!

[Etherfish]

It's a form of boredom if you are watching the clock waiting for it to be over. That's an ego part of your mind that doesn't understand what you're doing. it has learned to always try to accomplish something.
What I've found is intent helps with this.
Tell yourself as you start the meditation that you have decided that meditation is the most important thing in your life, and the few minutes a day is very little to sacrifice, and you are going to put all your attention on this one thing.
Then as you meditate, don't try to do anything at all except the mantra, as you have already set up the game with your intention. It helps me. Tell yourself there is no rush, this is the time you have set aside for this.

[Shanti]

Hi A,
Welcome to the forum. I hear what you say.. this is exactly what my frustrations were when I started.. I'd close my eyes and then what.. am I supposed to see the mantra.. am I supposed to see something, a light or a star or something.. how can I just 'i am'  without an object in my mind's eyes.
It took some time, but I realized what everyone here and Yogani, in his lessons, were saying.. visions have to be treated like  a thought or a sound,  trying to see something in your mind's eyes is a distraction.
So how do you get over this discomfort.. this is what helped me.. When you close your eyes, your physical eyes cannot see.. so your mind's eyes try to create an image in the darkness.. When you start to meditate.. and your minds eyes are trying to make an image in the front of your head.. move your awareness down to your heart.. and then start your mantra.. So when you close your eyes and your mind is wondering what to do.. use your mind to take your awareness away from your head.. you will soon realize, you can do your mantra without actually having to visualize something... once your awareness has moved away from your head the mind does not try to create an image anymore.. This comes with a little practice.

However it is very important that you don't spend the 20 min of meditation trying to do this. Do it only one time, just when you start.. then you stay with the mantra.. anything else is distraction.. keep it simple.. this is something that helped me.. but if it makes meditation more complicated for you.. just skip it..

Also, the restlessness during meditation could be just purification.. it will go away.. and as you meditate more and more you will realize that no 2 sessions will ever be the same. If the irritation is just too much and you just cannot go back to your mantra.. slowly come out of meditation, rest a bit, so you don't carry that restlessness with you into your day.. But if the feelings are not too strong try to stay with the mantra for as long as you are comfortable. So if 10 min was your limit.. that is fine, as long as you keep up your twice a day routine you cannot go wrong.
Hopefully this phase will be gone soon.. it generally does.
Wish you all the best in your chosen path.

[Manipura]

Welcome, A!  I know exactly how you feel:  restlessness, boredom, clock-watching, impatience, i-must-be-doing-something-wrong.  Don't feel like you're alone in this.  Just stay with those feelings, because for you (and me, and others) they're part of the meditation process.  They're not preventing you from meditating - they're an integral part of the meditation.  I love what Ether has said on the subject:

That's an ego part of your mind that doesn't understand what you're doing. it has learned to always try to accomplish something.

[newpov]

Hi all,

"And God said, let there be light."

This verse gives us a clue.

When we think a mantra while also visualizing an internal organ bathed in light, then we should expect that the power of mantra and prana should become associated with or concentrated in that organ, with beneficial result.

Would anyone care to comment on this? What happens if you think your mantra when your heart is bathed in light? Has anyone had experience doing this?

But Christi, you have commented on danger of visualization in relation to chakras (like ajna or throat). I am assuming that this opinion does not necessarily address my question which addresses internal organs such as the heart.

Yogani and Christi, What do you have to say today on this subject of proper or beneficial use of visualization in yogic practice?

Would anyone else care to comment on this subject?

Thanks everyone!

newpov

[Jo-self]

....
When we think a mantra while also visualizing an internal organ bathed in light, then we should expect that the power of mantra and prana should become associated with or concentrated in that organ, with beneficial result.
....
[/quote]

I think what others have said is correct.  In short, you should follow the instructions of the path you are walking on.  Any deviations and you may fall into pits, brambles, quicksand, and monsters.  So, visualization is not part of AYP Deep Meditation.  Of course, visualizations can and do occur, and in future some transformations of the visual apparatus may occur, but afaik, there are no instructions about it.  

[newpov]

Hi all,

quote:you may fall into pits, brambles, quicksand, and monsters.

I acknowledge this view, but spirituality may require courage to venture into the unknown. My curiosity remains.

Quakers, among others, value stillness and light, although they miss out on the power of mantra and pranayama in mobilizing pranic energy. I'm questioning an "either/or" approach.

So then, could mantra and light working together be beneficial for some in spiritual practice?

God saw that light was good, and God divided light from darkness.

If we venture in light, then perhaps the verse is saying that we shall be protected from pits, quicksand, brambles and monsters in the dark. Again,

When we think our mantra while also visualizing an internal organ bathed in light,
then we expect that the power of mantra and prana will be associated with
or concentrated in that organ, with beneficial result.
What do you say about this hypothesis?

May I hear from anyone offering experience about light in their meditative practice? Has it accelerated your progress?

Thanks again, everyone!

newpov

[yogani]

Hi Newpov:

Localized sensations, light, and other symptoms in deep meditation are effect rather than cause, and the instruction is to easily favor the mantra, which is the underlying cause of symptoms of purification and opening, and of the rise of abiding inner silence.

This is not to say that energy centers, light, sound and other inner phenomena cannot be used as objects of meditation, but that is a departure from the method of AYP deep meditation, and will be the practitioner's experiment, or perhaps following the guidance of another teaching. It is best to continue with one approach, and not be jumping around too much.  

Remember, if we are digging a well to find water, one deep well will usually be better than many shallow ones.

The guru is in you.

[newpov]

Yogani,

Thank you for weighing in.

Here is a story:

There was a farmer who wanted water, so he dug a well fifty feet deep. He didn't find water, so he dug another fifty-foot well. Again, no water. Three more times he dug to a depth of fifty feet.

Exhausted, he went to a teacher and told his experience. The teacher said, "Why did you dig five wells? Why didn't you stick to one and go deeper than fifty feet? You would have found your water!"

Morale: striking a balance between teacher and intuition within is not so easy .... I guess we're each on our own.

Can anything but Grace save us?

newpov

[Anthem]

quote:But Christi, you have commented on danger of visualization in relation to chakras (like ajna or throat). I am assuming that this opinion does not necessarily address my question which addresses internal organs such as the heart

.

Hi newpov,

One problem with visualization in terms of moving energy particularly to energy centers like chakras and the head for example, is the amplification of latent tendencies and the overall creation of imbalances.

Visualization can be like moving energy prematurely to a place in the nervous system that isn't ready yet, before the given location would be naturally ready to flow and receive said energy. Once the energy is in a particular area which isn't ready yet, there can be a lot of unpleasant symptoms.

[newpov]

Hi all,

I thank Anthem for his contribution!

FIRST:

The distinction between organs and chakras may be important. Is one specific internal organ the same as, and/or associated with, only one specific chakra or energy turbine?

If you visualize light in any one internal organ (specifically, for example, the heart), does it follow that one identifiable combination or collection of chakras in the nervous system will therefore always be activated, without healthy automatic or autonomic rebalancing by the nervous system as a whole and so therefore with possible unfortunate consequences? How do you know?

SECOND:

Perhaps any answer for the heart organ differs from the answer applicable to all other organs.

Since the heart is centered between 3 chakras above and 3 chakras below, might visualization of light in the heart organ bring about a distribution of energy or a balanced activation of the surrounding 6 chakras? "As above, so below?"

THIRD:

Going much further, suppose visualization in the heart region properly includes or spans the physical heart on the left side, over to the spiritual heart (about which Robert Adams and Ramana Maharshi spoke) on the right side. An early reference in Ecclesiastes 10:2 --

quote:"The heart of the wise is at his right hand, and the heart of a fool at his left.

FOURTH:

Going even further, if spiritual sweep of included attention or activation is horizontal as well as vertical, could this be the ancient "Way of the Cross" as newly understood in yogic terms?

Vertical activation is evident as the "road" (read: spine or spinal nerve, etc.) in the verse that immediately follows [!!!!!] Ecclesiastes 10:2 --

quote:Even when the fool is walking on the road, he lacks sense...

The yogic cross is perhaps evident in Ecclesiastes 1, as two generations or again, in East/West, North/South terms:  

quote:"The sun rises, the sun sets, then to its place is speeds and there it rises. Southward goes the wind, then turns it to the north; it turns and turns again. Then back to its circling goes the wind [i.e., focus of attention and/or light visualization]? A generation goes, a generation comes; yet the earth stands firm for ever.

FIFTH:

My impression is that Christian mystics have had special veneration for "the sacred heart." Why do you suppose this has been the case? What do you believe has been behind this spiritual tradition?

newpov

[newpov]

Hi all,

Ramana Maharshi in my preceding post prompted this one. It seems that sages sometimes teach by voicing absurdities.

It remains for the astute student to see past the absurdities in order to pick out the kernel of a key teaching. The stupid, usually quite literal minded student will dismiss the teaching, not having the wit to spot deep irony, just for example; and so he will fail to see the nugget of spiritual merit that is buried and crafted within the absurdities.

Ecclesiastes, for example, writes: A fool walks down the road, he has no wit -- and everyone remarks, "How silly he is!"

Ok. Was Ramana Maharishi a fool?

To what end or purpose was Ramana Maharisha, an acknowledged genius and one of the greatest spiritual adepts of the past century, MANIFESTLY AND EMBARRASSINGLY stupid, absurd, illogical and/or foolish in the following exchange?

quote:8. What part of the body is the abode of the Self?

The heart on the right side of the chest is generally indicated. This is because we usually point to the right side of the chest when we refer to ourselves. Some say that the sahasrara (the thousand-petaled lotus) is the abode of the Self. But if that were true, the head should not fall forward when we go to sleep or faint.

Source: page 22 of The Spiritual Teaching of Ramana Maharshi, Shambala, Boston & London, 1988.

What do you make of this passage? What is he saying?

I don't know about you, but I see a "yogic cross" as I trace or follow a sequence of words in this passage:

1.  "The heart": physical heart on the left side, or west
2.  "...on the right side...": spiritual heart on the right side, or east
3.  "...sahasrara....": crown, or north
4.  "...head ... fall...": south

West/East, and North/South -- in connection with yogic labor or practice, these are the two generations of Ecclesiastes:  

quote:What profit can we show for all our [yogic] toil, toiling under the sun? A generation goes, a generation comes, yet the earth stands firm forever.

Ramana concludes his passage by writing, "...when we go to sleep or faint." So much absurdity is evident here in this passage, why not tag his absurdity with another? When we wake up, we see everything!

newpov

[CarsonZi]

Hi Brian,

quote:Originally posted by newpov

FIRST:

The distinction between organs and chakras may be important. Is one specific internal organ the same as, and/or associated with, only one specific chakra or energy turbine?

If you visualize light in any one internal organ (specifically, for example, the heart), does it follow that one identifiable combination or collection of chakras in the nervous system will therefore always be activated, without healthy automatic or autonomic rebalancing by the nervous system as a whole and so therefore with possible unfortunate consequences? How do you know?

The chakra's are energy "centres" but do not corrospond directly with one internal organ per chakra.  If you visualize light in your heart you will be in danger of prematurely opening that chakra too early.  If that chakra was meant to be open at this moment, then it would be opening at this moment.  Patience my friend.  All in due time with due dilligence.  And we can know this will happen because it happens.  Try it if you must and see for yourself, it's the only way you will believe what I am saying I assume.

quote:Originally posted by newpov

SECOND:

Perhaps any answer for the heart organ differs from the answer applicable to all other organs.

Since the heart is centered between 3 chakras above and 3 chakras below, might visualization of light in the heart organ bring about a distribution of energy or a balanced activation of the surrounding 6 chakras? "As above, so below?"

As above so below if the heart is above.  But as you just mentioned, the heart is BELOW the top three chakra's so that logic doesn't work.  I don't know for sure, but I assume that if you open the heart that it would automatically open the lower chakras if they weren't already, but this again will cause nothing but problems if you are opening your heart before opening the bottom three chakras.

quote:Originally posted by newpov

THIRD:

Going much further, suppose visualization in the heart region properly includes or spans the physical heart on the left side, over to the spiritual heart (about which Robert Adams and Ramana Maharshi spoke) on the right side. An early reference in Ecclesiastes 10:2 --

quote:"The heart of the wise is at his right hand, and the heart of a fool at his left.

As far as I understand it, the heart chakra is in the middle of the chest.  Not on the right, not on the left, but in the middle.  From what I understand, the physical heart is on the left, the spiritual heart is on the right, and the perfect balanced mix of the two is the centre of the heart chakra, in the centre of the chest.

quote:Originally posted by newpov

FOURTH:

Going even further, if spiritual sweep of included attention or activation is horizontal as well as vertical, could this be the ancient "Way of the Cross" as newly understood in yogic terms?

Vertical activation is evident as the "road" (read: spine or spinal nerve, etc.) in the verse that immediately follows [!!!!!] Ecclesiastes 10:2 --

quote:Even when the fool is walking on the road, he lacks sense...

The yogic cross is perhaps evident in Ecclesiastes 1, as two generations or again, in East/West, North/South terms:  

quote:"The sun rises, the sun sets, then to its place is speeds and there it rises. Southward goes the wind, then turns it to the north; it turns and turns again. Then back to its circling goes the wind [i.e., focus of attention and/or light visualization]? A generation goes, a generation comes; yet the earth stands firm for ever.

Yes perhaps, but these days I am finding that ANYTHING you want to say can be referenced with a Bible verse, as the generic and metaphoric speech patterns serve a thousand purposes for a thousand people, so I am finding little value in any one person's interpretation of the "Holy Book".

quote:Originally posted by newpov

FIFTH:

My impression is that Christian mystics have had special veneration for "the sacred heart." Why do you suppose this has been the case? What do you believe has been behind this spiritual tradition?

I think the reason for this is because Christianity takes the Bhakti yoga direction.  In Christianity, the followers try to experience God through devotion and that is their main practice set.  I think that is why there is so much emphasis on the heart. That and it is important to learn to live by seeing from the heart and not from the eyes.  That is the key I think to learning to see everyone as yourself or as God.  See everyone/thing through the eyes of the heart.

Love,
Carson[^]