Krishnamurti, Meditation and Mantras

[Eitherway]

Hi Christi,

I consider J. Krishnamurti my first professor of spirituality.  I was seduced by his intellectual prowess, his command of language, and his ability to discuss subjects ranging from education of children, what occupations we should pursue, political situations to the silence between words.  

Not familiar with other spiritual teachers, the most important part of discovering Krishnamurti was that for once I could say, this man is speaking from a level of consciousness inhabited by few others.  Exploring his work, I couldn't deny the excitement that would be stirring deep with in me and prodding me to exclaim that there is more to life than what I see in our society at large or my life in the personal.

The problem I had was that as inspirational as reading Krishnamurti was, the teachings or non teachings were not able to penetrate my mind or better yet were speaking to my mind.  Of course, this has more to do with the state of my mind rather than the teachings.  I needed something firmer, something tangible, something that would help me deal with psychological baggage, lack of energy, and bring a sense of calm to the chaos raging in my mind that for all purposes I was completely identified with.  

I remember saying Krishnamurti's got it but how do I get it?  Ofcourse truth is so much simpler and complicated than that.  

I remember stumbling around and don't remember how exactly I found Yogani but I thank my lucky stars every day for this discovery. There is also the strong possiblity that the bhakti catalyzed by krishnamurti is what brought me to Ayp and thus I discount no teacher, however abstract in their teachings.

 I remember going through the deep meditation book, and something told the skeptic in me to just shut up.  I think it was Yogani's calm, reasoned presentation that balanced equally the fruits of the practice in daily and spiritual life and also gave me a good understanding of what this enlightenment thing was.  Just thinking back to this past year can bring me to tears.  I can't scarcely imagine what the future holds.    

J. Krishnamurti, Adyashanti, Nisargadatta, Ramana, and plenty others whom I have not had the chance to scratch the surface of are inspirational and speaking from the truth.  I just happen to think that It would serve most people well to establish a routine in a system like ayp and then or concurrently read/explore the work of these masters.  The truth is always the truth but can be interpreted so differently even by the same person along the path of purification and silence.

Ofcourse nothing new in this post but felt that people reading shouldn't get the idea that one teacher is right or wrong or even right or wrong for them.  There seems to be a time for all teachings and like many have said, all the paths lead back to home, even the ones that fervently contend that we are already home.

love, light, and peace to all.

p.s  Katrine, if you want, I will happily mail you some krishnamurti books.  They are overflowing with wisdom.  He truly was a intellectual giant and maybe we are not ready to completely understand or appreciate his work yet.  I think ayp and other similar scientific systems will help us get there.

[Katrine]

quote:was so....so...so...

(remember Shirely Maclain(being the mother of cancer ridden Deborah Winger in the film "Terms of endearment"?)

relieving. (I can't remember what Shirley called it..)

Sorry for rambling....but i just had to tell you:

i was sitting in the middle of dinner when the sentence Shirley said just burst forward into memory. It is kind of a no-no word so better put in blanks:

She said...after having been literally layed (in the movie) after years and years of no such thing(if ever truly).... (she was in her sixties)...by Jack Nocholson:

"I never knew it was so.....so....so.....f**** f**** fantastic!!! And they burst out in laughter....she and her daughter like two girlfriends.

Anyway.....when i remembered....i burst out in laughter too....rice, fish and broccoli flying all over the place...

Now I better clean it up

[Katrine]

quote:p.s Katrine, if you want, I will happily mail you some krishnamurti books. They are overflowing with wisdom. He truly was a intellectual giant and maybe we are not ready to completely understand or appreciate his work yet. I think ayp and other similar scientific systems will help us get there.

We posted at the same time, Eitherway.

Would you really do that....that would be fantastic!

the ones I have read are:

"Total freedom"
"On Love and Loneliness"
"On fear"

[Eitherway]

Hi katrine,

    I will definitely see which ones I have (they are in storage but I will be going next weekend)and send you any that you haven't read.  Just email me the address you want me to send it to.  Take care

[david_obsidian]

Christi,  thanks for your thoughtful reply.

It's a bit of a sidebar,  (though not entirely) on Krishnamurti,  but I don't think he was simply criticising the way people meditate.  It's much more sweeping than that:

Krishnamurti said:
Another method gives you a certain word and tells you that if you go on repeating it you will have some extraordinary transcendental experience. This is sheer nonsense. It is a form of self-hypnosis. By repeating Amen or Om or Coca-Cola indefinitely you will obviously have a certain experience because by repetition the mind becomes quiet. It is a well known phenomenon which has been practised for thousands of years in India —Mantra Yoga it is called. By repetition you can induce the mind to be gentle and soft but it is still a petty, shoddy, little mind. You might as well put a piece of stick you have picked up in the garden on the mantelpiece and give it a flower every day.

See it in full context here.

I would say Krishnamurti taught like that because he knew no better.  If he had known better at the time, he wouldn't have taught that way.  He's just showing limitations as all people do.

For sure many people find Krishnamurti to be deeply inspiring.  He can be strong in some aspects of his teaching/inspirational life while being weak or even a little backward-moving in others.  As I see it, that's the nature of the game.

It may be true that Krishnamurti's teachings will be better understood at some point.  All I can say is I don't know.  But I think it is part of humanities learning process to know where he was getting it wrong, and where therefore we need to depart from what he said.

[yogani]

quote:Originally posted by Eitherway

I remember saying Krishnamurti's got it but how do I get it?  Of course truth is so much simpler and complicated than that.  

Hi Eitherway:

This is the central question and topic of discussion in the AYP Self-Inquiry book. How to travel from Inspiration to Realization?

It is about so much more than simply saying it. And, at the same time, so much less if systematic means are applied.
 
It is my hope that the little Self-Inquiry book will be a useful companion to self-inquirers of every persuasion, and also be a reasonably practical introduction to the subject for just about anyone. More clarity in this field is much needed.

quote:Originally posted by Christi

One thing we do know is that Krishnamurti said that humanity would not be ready to understand his teachings for another 50 years. I don’t remember the exact date that he said that, but it was probably about 49 years ago.  

Our 50 years are up!

The guru is in you.

[Christi]

Hi David,

 

quote:It's a bit of a sidebar, (though not entirely) on Krishnamurti, but I don't think he was simply criticising the way people meditate. It's much more sweeping than that:

Krishnamurti said:
Another method gives you a certain word and tells you that if you go on repeating it you will have some extraordinary transcendental experience. This is sheer nonsense. It is a form of self-hypnosis. By repeating Amen or Om or Coca-Cola indefinitely you will obviously have a certain experience because by repetition the mind becomes quiet. It is a well known phenomenon which has been practised for thousands of years in India —Mantra Yoga it is called. By repetition you can induce the mind to be gentle and soft but it is still a petty, shoddy, little mind. You might as well put a piece of stick you have picked up in the garden on the mantelpiece and give it a flower every day.

See it in full context here.

I would say Krishnamurti taught like that because he knew no better. If he had known better at the time, he wouldn't have taught that way. He's just showing limitations as all people do.

This is an interesting question: What is the usefulness of continuous mantra repetition (japa) in yoga? Krishnamurti has made his position clear… that it does bring about a kind of silence in the mind, but that it is not a useful practice. I do not know if Krishnamurti ever did this practice, but I suspect not.

Interestingly, S.N. Goenka (the famous vipassana meditation teacher) did do this practice, and he says exactly the same thing. He also said that it produced in him a kind of self-induced hypnotic state, in which the mind was silent, but that he felt that it was just a numb state, and not at all useful for meditation. He advised his students strongly against doing it, and even said that if they did it, he wouldn’t teach them.

I have never tried this practice myself, but I have to admit that, judging on what I have seen in others, I would tend to agree with Krishnamurti and Goenka here. I have seen many people practice continuous mantra repetition for years, and they do seem to end up in this kind of numb, self-hypnotized state. They also often seem to become particularly attached to specific belief systems that seem to cloud their minds. They often want me to chant their mantra all the time, and to believe their belief system, whatever it is.

Here is Brian Haynes on the subject of continuous mantra repetition:


 

quote:Ever since I started studying yoga and meditation in 1969, for the past thirty-five years I’ve engaged in some sort of mantra repetition. You know, the repeating over and over of some word or words in order to still the mind. A well-known Christian mantra is “Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me.” The most famous Hindu mantra is “Om,” or “Aum.” In the ‘70s you couldn’t go to the airport without hearing “Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare, Hare.”
I’m still trying to figure out what a mantra is good for, which probably shows that I haven’t learned much, spiritually speaking, in those thirty-five years. Or, maybe I have. I’ve mantra’d away like crazy for months on end, and I’ve let the mantra slide for months on end. And in the end? I seem to be the same Brian I was before.
I’m beginning to suspect that a single thought (which describes a mantra, using “thought” as meaning any self-produced content of consciousness) is still a thought. And the thought of a thing is not that thing. Hence, thinking about thinking takes us farther afield from the simple truth of thinking; and thinking anything at all takes us farther afield from the simple truth of undivided consciousness—or “soul” if you like.

I don’t know what Yogani's stance is on the practice, but I have noticed that continuous mantra repetition (japa) has not made it into the top 20 advanced yoga practices in AYP. I believe he once said that people could do it if they wanted, as long as they didn’t use the AYP mantra, and exercised caution in terms of energy overload.

I think I would just say, don’t do it. I simply haven’t seen enough evidence of its efficacy, and have seen too much evidence of its potential drawbacks.

Christi

[Christi]

Hi Katrine,
 

quote:What book by Krishnamurti can you recommend? I have read a couple only....

Krishnamurti's notebooks. They were printed in three small volumes... very beautiful. He just wrote about the world as he saw it.

Christi

[yogani]

quote:Originally posted by Christi

 I don’t know what Yogani's stance is on the practice, but I have noticed that continuous mantra repetition (japa) has not made it into the top 20 advanced yoga practices in AYP.

Hi Christi:

That's right, and there is a reason for it. There is a big difference between a "meditation habit" and a "mantra habit." One naturally enlivens our normal daily activity with abiding inner silence, while the other divides our thought process between constant mantra repetition and normal activity (which limits the mantra as a vehicle for cultivating inner silence). People with a mantra habit sometimes have difficulty learning the simple procedure of deep meditation because they are so used to mechanically droning on with mantra during all other activity, giving attention to both (dividing the mind), which is not meditation. This is discussed in the deep meditation book.

Which is not to say continuous japa is not useful for some, but it seems to be a small minority of those who use it.

It boils down to the statistics. We aim for reliable results.

The guru is in you.

[david_obsidian]

Christi, I think you want to give maximum credit to various spiritual teachers,  and that's a good thing, but when they have made mistakes I think that sometimes leads to your subconsciously modifying what they have said until it can be agreed with.  In Krishnamurti's case here,  he's making sweeping statements against Mantra Yoga, period. This isn't the only piece of his I've seen it done in.  He's dismissive of Mantra Yoga -- all of it -- and that's an unadorned truth that I'm aware of from other contexts. He was known for it.  TM was nonsense to him, and that was that. One phrase I believe I remember reading from him was "[] TM and all that nonsense".  And the TM technique is the same as our 'Deep Meditation' technique.

You're addressing it as if he is speaking only against continuous mantra repetition, on-and-off the mat, specifically. He isn't. It's always possible to stretch what he said until he's right.   You might as well say he is speaking against doing mantra yoga while hanging upside-down from a tree with one leg eating a banana, and agree with him.   But you're then addressing what maybe he should have said, not what he said.

Why not recognize his mistakes?

[yogibear]

Hi Katrine,

 

quote:Eitherway wrote:

I consider J. Krishnamurti my first professor of spirituality. I was seduced by his intellectual prowess, his command of language, and his ability to discuss subjects ranging from education of children, what occupations we should pursue, political situations to the silence between words.

Understandable.

Those 3 notebooks mentioned are fascinating. Krishnamurti held audience with many people from all walks of life and these books contain his recollections of these counseling sessions along with  his descriptions of the environment he was in at the the time.

Another good one is Think on These Things. It is a compilation of his conversations with kids at his school. I got the most out this one myself.

Best, yb,

[Christi]

Hi David,
 

quote:Christi, I think you want to give maximum credit to various spiritual teachers, and that's a good thing, but when they have made mistakes I think that sometimes leads to your subconsciously modifying what they have said until it can be agreed with.


You're addressing it as if he is speaking only against continuous mantra repetition, on-and-off the mat, specifically. He isn't. It's always possible to stretch what he said until he's right. You might as well say he is speaking against doing mantra yoga while hanging upside-down from a tree with one leg eating a banana, and agree with him.  But you're then addressing what maybe he should have said, not what he said.

Why not recognize his mistakes?

Or... sometimes there is a lot of truth in what they say.

Actually, in agreeing with Krishnamurti here, I am going against the advice on mantra repetition given by many other spiritual teachers who I hold in high esteem. Amma is one of them. She does advise continuous mantra repetition. I think in this case, Amma is wrong to give that advice, and it (the practice) is detrimental to the spiritual progress of many of her devotees. I think in the case of the text that you quoted from Krishnamurti it does sound like Krishnamurti is talking about continuous mantra repetition. I don't see any reason to suppose he is talking about anything else.

I am quite happy to say that spiritual teachers are wrong when they are wrong. And I am happy to say that I don't think that what they are doing is helpful, if I think it isn't.

 

quote:He's dismissive of Mantra Yoga -- all of it -- and that's an unadorned truth that I'm aware of from other contexts. He was known for it.

It is very unlikely that Krishnamurti was at all familiar with the whole of mantra yoga. It is a big subject, and he had no real reason to be acquainted with it. He didn't study it at any time. I think it would be good to suppose that Krishnamurti thought that mantra yoga was another name for Japa, which is what most people think, even in India. If you think that he knew all about the subject and still was disdainful about it then I would be interested to see the evidence.

 

quote:TM was nonsense to him, and that was that. One phrase I believe I remember reading from him was "[] TM and all that nonsense". And the TM technique is the same as our 'Deep Meditation' technique.

I thought that TM used a 7th chakra (crown) mantra to awaken people from the top down and cause maximum instability and danger en route?

 I never studied it. I remember coming across advertisements for it when I was young, but they kind of smacked of this "we are young, smart and successful" vibe that just seemed to be a bit weird. A bit like the Jehovah's Witness adverts. I don't know why Krishnamurti thought that TM was nonsense. I think the Maharishi refused to teach in my country, and said some pretty distasteful things about the United Kingdom. That alone makes me wonder if Krishnamurti was right all along.




Christi

[Christi]

Hi Yogani,

 

quote:Hi Christi:

That's right, and there is a reason for it. There is a big difference between a "meditation habit" and a "mantra habit." One naturally enlivens our normal daily activity with abiding inner silence, while the other divides our thought process between constant mantra repetition and normal activity (which limits the mantra as a vehicle for cultivating inner silence). People with a mantra habit sometimes have difficulty learning the simple procedure of deep meditation because they are so used to mechanically droning on with mantra during all other activity, giving attention to both (dividing the mind), which is not meditation. This is discussed in the deep meditation book.

Which is not to say continuous japa is not useful for some, but it seems to be a small minority of those who use it.

It boils down to the statistics. We aim for reliable results.

The guru is in you.

Thanks for clarifying that. That is what I had suspected.

Christi

[david_obsidian]

Christi said:
I think in this case, Amma is wrong to give that advice, and it (the practice) is detrimental to the spiritual progress of many of her devotees.

I don't know.  I think your take on Amma's technique here may be a bit too severe. But you could be right that it isn't the best approach around, by any means. I have my doubts that it is 'detrimental to the spiritual progress', though it's true that no technique is good for everyone, including all the techniques we have.  I suspect the technique Amma is teaching has considerable value for many people.  But, credit to you for saying 'I think' rather than making sweeping pronouncements against the technique Amma is teaching, like Krishnamurti makes.

I thought that TM used a 7th chakra (crown) mantra to awaken people from the top down and cause maximum instability and danger en route?

I don't think so.  TM is basically the mantra yoga of the kind we learn here.  The mantra I learned from TM is similar to the one Yogani teaches.  The method is taught almost identically to the way Yogani teaches it.

Well Christi,  considering what you've said, I don't know what Krishnamurti could have said about Mantra Yoga that you would recognize as mistaken.  That looks like rationalization to me. It may well be true that for mantra yoga, and for TM, he misunderstood japa. He may indeed have put them all into one pot in his head. But that is just part of his ignorance, and his ignorance is why he shouldn't be making sweeping statements like that.  Like I said in the beginning, he spoke like that because he knew no better.

This is the big problem with Krishnamurti's teachings.  He makes big sweeping pronouncements without doing his homework.  Underneath that is a deeper problem: he didn't seem to think he needed to do his homework.  But he needed to do his homework, just like everyone else, if he was not to confound and mislead people.

Actually, it is possible to be a spiritual teacher and not do any homework at all,  or not much of it.  But then you have to know your domain of competence, stick to your domain of competence, and not over-estimate the scope or nature of your knowledge.  The homework that is required of you depends on what you say.

'Celebrity breeds contempt' as Yogani said.  It's not simple contempt of course,  its an insidious,  creeping syndrome of self-overestimation along with everything that goes with that.  Spiritual teachers are not fundamentally cursed to enter it if they become famous though -- Ramana Maharshi didn't fall to it, for example, in my opinion anyway.  It's SO easy to fall into that as a spiritual teacher though.   Your students won't help you keep out of it,  in fact, in their immature desires, they want you there and will do all they can to push you there.

One false tendancy against knowing and expressing the truth about yourself and you're dead.

[VIL]

Meditation utilizes shraddah (faith) by relying on the unknown.  In other words, I don't need do use a thought process to access that unknown part of myself that knows all.  I can abstract myself by bypassing the thought process and access this directly.  This is using faith to access the unchangeable.  This is the Absolute: Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (Guru Deva):

 

quote:A follower of Sankara, India's most famous religious teacher, Guru Deva belonged to the Advaita Vedanta tradition of philosophy which teaches that spiritual ignorance or illusion is caused by the superimposition of a false self onto the true self, considered to be ontologically identical with the absolute (brahman). Liberation (moksa) achieved through meditation enables one to distinguish between pure being and worldly phenomena. While true liberation may only be achieved by adepts who follow their masters in a rigorous programme of ascetic disciplines and spiritual techniques, Maharishi realised that some of these techniques could be used to beneficial effect outside the confines of the Advaita Vedanta tradition.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/06/india.obituaries

Whereas self-knowledge utilizes a belief (thought) to express that unknown part of ourselves.  I can rely on myself and not tradition, because the mind is changeable and so it seems reasonable, logical, that any real spiritual authority can truly exist, since the mind is progressive and changeable and is unable to contain the uncontainable.  One can believe one thing one day and something the next.  This is changeable.  This is the false self, although it is a reality within itself.  Some call this the Universal Mind.

 

quote:Krishnamurti denies that an authority can exist; for the mind or psyche is constantly changing and is unique for each individual, so that it cannot possibly be "known" in a definite way, but requires non-accumulative learning or what Krishnamurti calls "self-knowledge." It is thus that Krishnamurti rejects psychology, religion, and philosophy (though he would probably acknowledge the value of logic and the philosophy of science), which proceed by applying thought and language – instruments developed by the brain, utilizing memory, in response to the "outer" or sensory world – to the "inner" or "spiritual" realm.

http://alangullette.com/essays/philo/k_trad.htm

If a person clears away snow from a windshield, why is it still impossible to see who is driving the car?  If a person sits within a car and realizes that it was he/she that was driving all along, why is it still impossible for some to see where they are going?

The abstract mind is beneficial to experience the Self.  A clear mind is beneficial to express the Self.  The Absolute (unchangeable)expresses Itself through the (progressive) Universal Mind.

My pennies worth:



VIL