Newcomer question regarding Self-Pacing

[Ecdyonurus]

Hi Ace, thank you for your kind answer!  

Your desire is very strong, which is very good. But you have to be careful not to direct your whole desire in one single direction, because this can create imbalance.

I also am (well, should better say "was") the kind of guy who can get attracted/obsessed, so I have some experience on this field.

And my personal experience is that obsession and imbalance are strongly related. Often I got obsessed with new things which seemed to be good, only to discover (after major disillusions and overloads) that I was only sedating myself, keeping me busy in order to "forget" my deep issues.

Many community members gave you very good advice about self pacing. It is a very powerful tool.

I would only add that you can decide to use only 50% of your desire for your own AYP sitting practices, and use the remainig 50% for helping your friends, family or even strangers.

Sorry for writing only a short message, I write from a smartphone...

[Buffle37]

Hi Ace,

When I discovered AYP, I was far much older than you and like you I was very enthusiastic to have found such a marvelous teaching.

 I thought with my experience of so many years that I knew better and in few weeks I added deep meditation, spinal breathing, samyama, mulabandha, etc.

Results: I began AYP in May and in October I could no longer sleep because of too much energy coursing in my body.

Now, more than six years later, I am still struggling to find a balance in my practice.

So, be careful and consider all the good advices you have already received.

Didier

[Ace]

Hello everyone,

Thank you all for helping me and for all the valuable counsel you gave me.
Yesterday I was quite shocked after reading your responses, but today I feel okay and even a little bit relieved, to be honest.
I just did 15min of asanas followed by 20min of deep meditation today and that was it.

 I was a bit lost because I had to hold myself back from practicing more, but I guess the concept of self pacing is slowly sinking in.
I think I have to see the fact that going 2x20min deep meditation per day is enough, as a privilege, rather than something that is holding me back. I even had to smile inside when I think about only doing this amount of practice now, is it really this easy?

Maybe I always had the wrong picture of the spiritual path, I imagined it as a huge struggle, which offers gigantic rewards at the end.
When I think about enlightenment being probably the highest achievement a human can attain, I still feel funny thinking the way up there is enyoable, although it requiers honest and sustained effort.


I will stick to do 2x20min DM until january/february.
I set myself the rule: At the beginning of each month either increase time of practice by 5min or pick up a new practice. What do you think about this approach?
Another question: Do I also have to limit myself in practicing physical yoga? Because I thought about getting really into this, now that I gained nearly 2h every day[]

I'd like to thank everyone again, you probably saved myself from a very unpleasant period.
And thanks for all the kind words, you guys are awesome!

and peace

[BlueRaincoat]

quote:Originally posted by Ace

I set myself the rule: At the beginning of each month either increase time of practice by 5min or pick up a new practice. What do you think about this approach?

Still too fast, Ace.

quote:Originally posted by Ace

Do I also have to limit myself in practicing physical yoga? Because I thought about getting really into this, now that I gained nearly 2h every day

If you practised asanas only, I’d say you could be very liberal with the time. I practised asanas only for many years and I could spend hours  every day doing it without any overload whatsoever. But when you add DM, the effect of that seems to spill into the asanas, so there have to be limits here too. With advance yoga the total is always greater than the sum of the parts. Having said that, standing asanas are grounding, so you can put more time into those. You will benefit from spending some time taking physical exercise outdoors -keep fit. That is grounding and it will come in handy when the energies start moving.

Somebody was saying earlier on that you need to live in the word too. That was a great piece of advice. Give some of your time to others, try to be of service to other people. I think you have a better chance to be a great yogi, if you are a compassionate human being. It's never too early to start that part of your practice. It feels great and - as far as I know - there is no risk of overload there

Best wishes

[ak33]

I have a question for you Ace. You said that you did shamatha for two years, surely this is enough time to attain a relatively stable flow of attention and tranquillity. Did you acquire nimittas on a regular basis? As for AYP, please don't go overboard, follow the advice that people here have given. AYP is indeed very intense. Patience and consistency.

BlueRaincoat - Buddhist meditation is what led Buddha, Milarepa and numerous lamas to full realization, how can you call it superficial and conceptual?

[BlueRaincoat]

Hi ak33

I meant "conceptual" and “superficial” in a literal way, and not at all in a disparaging way.
“Conceptual” as in “it takes you through a series of concepts”. This form of meditation is less deep i.e. more superficial than mantra meditation. Which is why it is safe to practice for many ours every day.

I'm not saying there aren't deeper forms of Buddhist meditation, I was merely suggesting the less deep forms may have generated a widespread perception that meditating for many hours a day is a must for the serious practitioner.

I had no intention whatever to slight Buddhism or offend anyone. Sorry if my words could have been interpreted that way.

[Holy]

Ace,

in all honesty, if you want a girl now and all others say, take it slowly man, do only a small step every day, will you listen to that advice or just take her now?

It is your call, the inner voice is ringing inside you in this intensity! The truth is, the more intense the inner ring, the more intense is also the wish of the source of everything to awaken in you!

There is a story in the Indian culture called Bhagavad Gita. Arjuna and Krishna are on the battle field. On the enemiy field Arjuna sees not only enemies but also a lot of his friends and family members. Krishna says go fight the others and Arjuna starts to whine and says it is not possible, how can I kill my own beloveds?

Realized yogis have interpreted this story as a dialog between the mind (Arjuna) and Awareness (Krishna). Arjuna constantly bringing reasons why he should not do what he must and Krishna constantly telling him about all the illusions of his reasoning. The more indepth interpretations of this story detail the different friends and family members on the enemy-field-side as distracting voices to reach your ultimate goal, for which your fire is burning intensly. Some of these voices are like, take it easy, you have lots of time, a life time or even endless lifetimes. Other voices are like, why practice today, better relax or do something else. Other voices may be your girl, she rather wants you inbetween her than sitting next to her in meditation pose Then it may get even more critical, your own family may say no, which is very deep, or your friends or whatever. Then when you come close to samadhi, you will see that EVERY MOVEMENT is a distraction. All types of distractions are there, even now you are reading these words, completely overseeing that for which you want to practice yoga. It is always now, yoga can make you so still that you canclearly see and start loving this forevermore. But distacting voices will always be there, in all kind of types, forums, people, life situations, health situations, thoughts, emotions. Ultimatly there is a saying, a blind cannot lead a blind. We have tons of good hearted lovely people here on this forum, but my friend, if your desire is ultimate, then what shall be the reason for not having the ultimaate now? I can FULLY feel with you, here it was the VERY SAME. UNENDING wish for the best as fast as possible, why spending the whole life and then nothing of the good can be enjoyed or shared with others?

But I also had to face that wall which is spoken here often, in practical terms overloads and imbalances in the body-mind. The BIG frustration is known here aswell. Still all spiritual texts, all gurus, everyone agrees, the higher the intensity for the source, the faster it will enter your life! Yogananda also speaks of a method for the source of all and everythign to reveal within 24 hours! The formula is:

Sit somewhere and then bring your intention to the one source of all and everything TO REVEAL ITSELF NOW. Keep this intention UNTIL it happens. Like " I will not move and do anything else BEFORE YOU HAVE REVEALED YOURSELF FULLY AND COMPLETELY!!" This is ultimate resolution. Yogananda warns that you will be tested by small gifts and presents and by this distracted. If you fall unto them, then the source of life will not reveal itself, among these distractions you will also face lots of those from the Bhagavat Gita story, but some of them are also of spiritual nature. You may get very sweet insights together with joy and bliss and you will say, "okay okay this is more than enough for me, now I can stop this and go eat my pizza, thank you God" Most, or nearly everyone is doing like this. Noone wants to find out the final. Still according to yYgananda, if this is kept up for one day and one night nonstop, there is no other way for the ultimate to be revealed to you!

I think there cannot be any faster than this method, except isntant grace, one split moment all finished. The other very rare occurance with instant awakening comes from the grace of those who are in grace, means awakened/realized ones. There are some walking around, still I have not observed any awakening event like that, only met those already in grace, but not how they were before.

Then comes the very big arena of yogic practices. Most of them speak of results starting from 3 months to 1 year to 3,6,12 years to 10-20 years to "this lifetime" to "several lifetimes".

AYP speaks of 10-20 years, so would be somewhere in the middle. Some hatha yogic texts speak of 3-6 months, but the requirements are optimized food and intense spiritul practice half of the day or nearly the full day. In other words these would not be in your category as a student (am one myself, so know the troubles in this very much! ). I heard from tibetan yogas who spoke of 1-3 years. These also seemed to go into extended practice times plus mostly based on inner fire as a practice, which to my experience a desaster in city life It may be ideal for cold places in the nature^^ Then we have the kriya yogis who have succesfully reached the goal of yoga within 5-6 years, some after 12, 16, 17 years. But kriya yoga also goes into extended spiritual practices, those having attained in 6 years speak of ~8 hours per day. When it comes to other lifetime and several lifetime practices, you can find a lot of them. Those unclear practices were never attractive for me

AYP is young, 10-20 years is an estimation of Yogani, for him it was a ride of about 25, but noone can know the practices that have happened in previous lifes, therefore only over time will we know how long it will take for the average.

Despite all voices which want to tame you down, here is one voice, that says, if you really want it, if the fire is burning like hell, never forget, it is up to you alone! You decide! Young masters is what this planet needs, in this I am fully with you friend!

Peace and happy practice to all (=

[Ace]

Hello everyone,

I decided to cut back my practice to 2x20min meditation plus some yoga and not look into this forum for a while. I followed a lot of your advice and concentrated more on studying/friends and excersising. I'm feeling very balanced and made some nice lifestyle changrs regarding healthier living and excersising. I also enjoy the additional free time I gained from cutting back practice and try to use it for useful activities.

 However now I came back to the forum and I'm once again blown away by your posts.


to BlueRaincoat:

 

quote:Still too fast, Ace

Oh yes, probably I'm not going to follow the rule I set for myself like a dogma. I try to listen what feels right and if I'm comfortable doing things. I'm currently comfortable with the 2x20min meditations but I feel like a urge is building up to practice more, so I will follow this inner desire, but as I said I will just change things at the end of every month and not make too drastic changes. So you see I learned at least something. I think after all your adive I learned to listen more to my body's signals regarding the effects of practice. For me I notice for example after meditation, regardless how I felt before I get really tired and need to rest for about 10min. So I try to get tons of sleep these days, which I consider favourable for dealing witth the effects of purification. So I think I listened to the advice and developed a more cautious appproach. Now, I know there are certain dangers, and I to detect signs of it as soon as possible.


to ak33:

 

quote:You said that you did shamatha for two years, surely this is enough time to attain a relatively stable flow of attention and tranquillity. Did you acquire nimittas on a regular basis? As for AYP, please don't go overboard, follow the advice that people here have given. AYP is indeed very intense. Patience and consistency.

Hello,

I said I meditated for two years, but these two years were not a time of constant and dedicated practice. However this summer, before discovering AYP I used to do 1,5h a day and had some very nice experiences. One weekend I did a meditation retreat at home and on saturday I meditated 7h on one day. At the last minutes of the last sessions I suddenly felt joy building up in my chest area and extending further. I was so happy I just had to smile. The intensity grew and I couldn't concentrate on my meditaiton anymore. I was feeling totally crazy happy for 2h afterwards.

Back to your question, No I didn't aquire a nimitta. I read some literature on this contorverse subject and found that some very experienced meditators, who have stabilised jhana states have never seen nimittas. The author of one particular article had a great argument on why one shouldn't think about nimittas to much. It was something like this: (in my own words)

"If you practice breath meditation and notice that a nimitta arises, the procedure is to go back to the breath and stick with your practice. If the nimitta comes up stronger a second time, again, go back to your breath... If you don't see a nimitta you should just stay with your breath anyway. As nimittas are seen as a predecessor of jhana, they hold no real value as you should just ignore them and stay with your breath until you reach jhana. So in the end it doesn't matter whether you see a nimitta or not, its just an experience and as you know, experiences is not what matters but practice does."

This was in my own words and I form what I read it's a quite controversial topic, because those who see nimittas say it's essential, while those who don't see it say it's unimportant.
But in the end in samatha meditation it's important to reach jhana states and it seems like nimittas are do not have to be attained before.

Hope that helps somehow, my sources are a book by Arjan Brahm (nimitta supporter) and the rest is from online articles and forums. But it is important to say that there exist great samtha master, who practiced all their life but never saw a nimitta.


Thanks for all the posts and bless you all

[Ace]

to Holy,


First of all thank you very much for your extensive and detailed post, I appreciate it a lot that people take so much time to help some stranger with his practice.

 

quote: Still all spiritual texts, all gurus, everyone agrees, the higher the intensity for the source, the faster it will enter your life

But if this was the case, there would be no need for self-pacing, or not? Unless "higher intensity for the source" is not equal to "more intense practice". You gave the example of the 24h to enlightenment sit, but the way I understand it and from the advice I got, this is not recommended. I understand the need for self-pacing like this:

"self-pacing is necessary, because your body needs time to adapt to the new energies that are set free by the practices. If you practice too much your body won't be ready to deal with these energies and therefore you will hit a wall. Because of this, it's better to practice in a way, that your body can get used to these energies gradually"

So wouldn't a 24h sit be way too much for you body to handle?

 

quote:Then comes the very big arena of yogic practices. Most of them speak of results starting from 3 months to 1 year to 3,6,12 years to 10-20 years to "this lifetime" to "several lifetimes".

AYP speaks of 10-20 years, so would be somewhere in the middle

What do you mean exactly, when you speak of results?

 

quote:Despite all voices which want to tame you down, here is one voice, that says, if you really want it, if the fire is burning like hell, never forget, it is up to you alone! You decide! Young masters is what this planet needs, in this I am fully with you friend!

Thanks for your kind words and I fully agree with you, the world needs more dedicated practicioners of yoga! BUT and here is the problem why I came here in the first place, from what I got from the advice so far, you progress faster when you practice in way that you don't overdo it and you dont hit a wall! On this assumption bases my recent decision to cut back practice to the recommended amount. If I notice that everything is fine, I will intensify my practice gradually to the point where I feel some signs of overload.

To sum it up: What I learned from this thread is that self-pacing is not about holding me back in my progress, but it's rather helping me progress faster, because it helps me avoid hiting a wall and go into a crisis.

So now you encourage me to practice more and go all in, which I find very nice of you, but it's the opposite of what the others told me. So I think I will stick to the practice I'm doing right now, but I will take any opportunity to develop further without harming myself.

Thanks for your post and bless you

[BlueRaincoat]

Hello Ace
Welcome back. Great to hear you have considered the self-pacing issue carefully.

Perhaps I can clear up some of the confusion, if I tell you that - as far as I'm aware - Holy practices a different yoga method than the people who have previously written on your thread. Nothing wrong with practising methods other than AYP of course, just that you will have to understand Holy's practice in order to put her advice into perspective. Personally, I think it's best to stay with one system when you are a beginner. If AYP works for you, stick to the practice and advice given in the AYP book (or website).

I hope this help. I'm sure Holy will come back with her own answer to your question.

Enjoy your practice!

[Holy]

Hi Ace,

quote:But if this was the case, there would be no need for self-pacing, or not? Unless "higher intensity for the source" is not equal to "more intense practice". You gave the example of the 24h to enlightenment sit, but the way I understand it and from the advice I got, this is not recommended.

When we are talking of one day, where do you need self pacing? Self-pacing is a concept to enable a yogi to practice with least discomfort over weeks, months, years and decades. It has not been mentioned before in any scripture or book in this clarity. But now with a name, it has become an important topic and as a lot of people in AYP has experienced with needed and useful applications.

quote:So wouldn't a 24h sit be way too much for you body to handle?

The 24-"sit" is not a practice, it is you wanting the source to revel itself. A practice session does not have this in mind, it wants to safely but surely purify the body-mind and make it available for the revelation of the source. I just mentioned it to give an idea about different approaches and their needed timespan We have all from instant to several lifetimes

Before you ask, what is the difference, one takes so long, one is instant, sure instant would be the best, then why all the fuss with years and lifetimes. The answer is, noone wants the revelation of the source. For those who want, the speedy options are there. For those who still have other wishes, other desires, concsious or subconcsious, practices are very much helpful to let those wishes come true faster and in very beautiful ways, at the same time clearing the body-mind of all the strange concepts and beliefs regarding self, god, truth, what is to be done and not be done, where the joy and love is to be found etc. until the body-mind becomes ripe -to use Yoganis words- for the revelation to happen.

quote:What do you mean exactly, when you speak of results?

With results the goal of yoga was meant. Surely, if you practice you will have a direct result, cause and effect in the same day. With daily practice you will not only have daily effects but also cumulative effects adding to one another resulting in deeper clearage of the body-mind, greater capability to go into silence, increased flow of life within the body-mind and with that also outside of it, faster manifestation of what is inside in outside until both can be seen as one. With ongoing practice the doors to grace transcending logic and understanding of cause and effects also open up more and more.

These doors can also open up by meeting or thinking or watching a graced one aswell. In the same manner, the doors to grace can also open by all kind of other means, like with Yogananda's "this is the final"-method By surrender, by karma yoga, by jnana yoga and so on.

Within the AYP approach, the advices given are correct, keep a steady but managable pace. It is better to have no results than to suffer. Ideal progress is either no perceived results or only positive results. For ultimate success the only important thing is to keep up the practice until the goal of yoga is reached. Even realized the practices continue to do good, therefore some accomplished yogis seem to continue with them.

Some hints from here for smooth progress. Mudras and bandhas can make a big difference between smooth and unsmooth, the same goes for too much meditation and not enough pranayama and asanas. A strong physical body can compensate overloads aswell to some degree, therefore physical excercises and food are important points to consider over time. Especially in your country in these months, strong physics will have many good sideeffects beyond the spiritual aspect aswell

The post above was only because I saw a big flame suddenly becoming down-talked and here is a flame that wants everyone here to bliss out to death now and not next lifetime

So all good friend and

happy practice to all!