Less is more

[Bodhi Tree]

I would venture to say we are in co-control, in co-creation, and in co-divinity. Anything that falls short of that realization renders a robotic, sedated, hypnotic state of being (in my experience), which I don't think God intends as a full flowering of enlightenment. I think God intends for His/Her creatures to blossom and become individuals of absolutely stunning functionality and brilliance, shining forth from within with genius and compassion. The homo sapiens sapiens species is riding the edge of that wave.

Re: practices speeding up progress, all I can rely on is my own empirical evidence, which indicates that there is a cause-and-effect relationship between the two: practice and acceleration. Quite simply, there have been many-a-time when I have sat down to meditate and emerged soaked in serenity and positive vibrations. If I had spent that 20 minutes drinking coffee and reading a sci-fi novel, chances are the quantity (wink-wink) of peace cultivated would not have been as substantial. Obviously, it's hard to quantify inner silence, but you get the gist.

But now, I've backed off, like you, because the flow of purification is too intense. Too much emptiness, too much energy. Body can't handle it. Time to slow down. Time to chill. Time to float in more contemplative-prayer-mode.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to persuade you, or invalidate your experience and beliefs on the matter. I am simply relaying my own. I don't cling to absolutism.

"There is a time for every purpose under heaven."

[CarsonZi]

I, like you, have no desire to persuade you towards a replication of or even verbally validating my personal experience.  But I do however invite you to inquire personally into the deeper implications of what you have said above.

"I would venture to say we are in co-control, in co-creation, and in co-divinity."

Where/who exactly is this entity that is in co-control?  Is it the body?  The mind?  The thoughts?  The concept of Bodhi?  Every time I try to pinpoint exactly who it would be that is in "co-control" I find it impossible to find anyone.

"...all I can rely on is my own empirical evidence, which indicates that there is a cause-and-effect relationship between the two: practice and acceleration."

Anything that is "cause and effect" related is by definition, in time.  Cause and effect require an existence that is in time in order to work.  When all of Life is experienced as being right now, then cause and effect are merely conceptual ideas that are not absolutes.  This is how miracles occur.  Miracles could essentially be seen as effects with no cause.  

To further this inquiry I invite you to inquire into how possible it was for you to NOT do practices.  Was that even a possibility?  How could you know that you would not be exactly where you are now even without practices?  It's all speculation; can't be known.  

Just a few directions for inquiry if you are inclined.  Feel free to nudge me into my own inquiry if you feel like it.

Love!
Carson

[Bodhi Tree]

Hehehehe...neti neti...deconstructing the concepts. 'Tis a fun game.

Would you mind paying my rent, because my landlord seems to be demanding money on these dates that keep arising from out of the FUTURE? What's worse  is that I have PAST memories of having to meet such obligations, which in turn shape my experience of the PRESENT moment. If only I could erase the past and future, I might ever-so-happily dwell in the present, and thereby enlighten my landlord about his delusional belief that there is a future rent to collect.

I'm totally lost in the dream world, but you seem to have awoken, and dare I say, transcended, maya, and all of its trappings.



Forgive the sarcasm. I introduce it just to lighten the mood, lest we get too lofty. But, in all sincerity, I admire your nudge towards self-inquiry, and I can certainly see the flimsiness and fabrication of conceptual identities. But, if the whole purpose was to transcend space and time, why should we even bother to inquire, to exchange ideas, to deconstruct?

Seems like there is a deeper purpose at play here...namely that of divine manifestation. Hence, practices like samyama, which pinpoint certain essences and bring them into existence.

Well, I'll just go back to eating my imaginary meal with my imaginary grandparents in the imaginary world of spacetime.

[CarsonZi]

[tonightsthenight]

quote:Originally posted by CarsonZi

I, like you, have no desire to persuade you towards a replication of or even verbally validating my personal experience.  But I do however invite you to inquire personally into the deeper implications of what you have said above.

"I would venture to say we are in co-control, in co-creation, and in co-divinity."

Where/who exactly is this entity that is in co-control?  Is it the body?  The mind?  The thoughts?  The concept of Bodhi?  Every time I try to pinpoint exactly who it would be that is in "co-control" I find it impossible to find anyone.

"...all I can rely on is my own empirical evidence, which indicates that there is a cause-and-effect relationship between the two: practice and acceleration."

Anything that is "cause and effect" related is by definition, in time.  Cause and effect require an existence that is in time in order to work.  When all of Life is experienced as being right now, then cause and effect are merely conceptual ideas that are not absolutes.  This is how miracles occur.  Miracles could essentially be seen as effects with no cause.  

To further this inquiry I invite you to inquire into how possible it was for you to NOT do practices.  Was that even a possibility?  How could you know that you would not be exactly where you are now even without practices?  It's all speculation; can't be known.  

Just a few directions for inquiry if you are inclined.  Feel free to nudge me into my own inquiry if you feel like it.

Love!
Carson

The one who is in control, and there certainly is one, is the Self. And it gets to make choices. E pluribus unum applies here. Each Self is unique, like every snowflake. Time definitely exists. Its just as valid as eternity. The present is where time and eternity meet.

[tonightsthenight]

quote:Originally posted by CarsonZi

I have a sense that for some, once "the process (of unwinding/opening)" has been started, it's sort of like a runaway train on a downward slope... you might be able to throw some stuff in front of it to slow it down every so often, but there is not much we can do to stop it or bring "the momentum" under our control (short of stopping all intentional practices... and maybe not even that ).  For me, all "practice" has become simply noticing what is happening and learning to surrender on deeper and deeper levels to that.  And interestingly, surrendering and inquiry have somehow become one and the same.  I don't know how to verbally explain this though.

Will I ever be able to do practices formally again?  I have no idea.  I do still set my alarm every day for 4am and wake up and look inside to see if maybe today I could meditate, but in general I may be allowed to sit for formal meditation only for a couple of minutes every few months or so.  
 

That's been the experience here. Once the process got started there was no stopping it. Self pacing is great in theory but it doesn't help much when purification continues regardless of practice. Something to be addressed still in AYP.

[Bodhi Tree]

quote:Originally posted by tonightsthenight

Self pacing is great in theory but it doesn't help much when purification continues regardless of practice. Something to be addressed still in AYP.

I would say AYP does address that issue by suggesting grounding. For me, it's not sufficient to simply stop practices; I have start something else. Some kind of replacement. Fill the void, as it were. So, I've taken to more exercise, guitar playing, socialization/service with friends (AA community), laying on the couch and just softly drifting into daydream states (contemplation). These alternatives to the deeper practice of meditation put me more on a horizontal plane, rather than the vertical dive that occurs with plunging through subconscious layers. Also, with grounding, there is a favoring of locality, rather than non-locality, (bending and stretching the normal confines of spacetime). I'm trying to stick to my local neighborhood, before I go back to zooming through inner space, know what I mean?

[Holy]

Hi friends,

this thread has become deep again

Control or no control is something that must be seen, nothing to speculate about.

The insight here is a mix of Carson's and Bodhi's Practices speed up the process of body-mind transformation, which is within relativity, but ultimatly if practices will happen for your body-mind or not is not in your hands. God is the one doing, practicing, playing, fooling, not practicing, commenting, playing with itself, the one super trickser But even if seen like this, what is it worth for, if unhappiness is the main part of daily life.

For me here it is grace if practices happen that really do something good in all regards. Practices can happen with a lot of struggle or with lots of love and support. Practices never did work here well in all regards if done by own experimentations, combinations, mind-based-compositions etc. What happened with Yogani is pretty special, with crazy durability, trust and tripple-A karma

The help and grace of living realized masters are needed to the observation here. It may surely be doable without, but why to make it so hard if it can be so nice. Gurunath said somwhere in October 2013 when I was with him that most of his work is to make the practice of kriya yoga smooth. And it is really that which makes me keep up the practice no matter what, the whole thing is supported with such a power, all life bows to the happening of the practice

The inner here is not ok with any struggle or problem my friends of this forum are confronted with. God knows what, but surely love and support is flowing to all here.

Peace and love friends

[CarsonZi]

Hi Bodhi,

quote:Originally posted by Bodhi Tree

Forgive the sarcasm. I introduce it just to lighten the mood, lest we get too lofty. But, in all sincerity, I admire your nudge towards self-inquiry, and I can certainly see the flimsiness and fabrication of conceptual identities. But, if the whole purpose was to transcend space and time, why should we even bother to inquire, to exchange ideas, to deconstruct?

I hope that you will forgive me as I don't think that I was very clear in my writing above.  I'm not saying that we need to transcend space/time, the ego, duality or anything like that at all.  I was only trying to say that for me, anytime I go looking for the one who is "co-creating" I can't locate anyone.  This doesn't make me a "robot" as you say, but (again, for me) helps to foster a humble (humility, perhaps obviously, has been something I have struggled with my whole life) yet responsible state of being.  I don't claim control of anything, not even for my actions, yet I do claim responsibility for them.  A paradox, and maybe even a controversial statement, at least from some perspectives.

Regarding practices speeding up progress... I was only attempting to share a perspective in which there can be no other way.  There either are practices happening or there aren't.  If they are happening, then they are happening.  If they are not then they are not.  This may seem obvious, but to say that "practices speed up evolution/progress" is to say that there was a possibility for things to be other than how they are.  If practices ARE happening, then NOT doing practices is not an option.  To state that practices do or do not speed up evolution is speculation only.  There is no way to know where one would be having lived life differently.  Everything takes the time it takes.

To use myself as a specific example I could say this:

For me, there are no formal practices happening anymore and there is no way that I could KNOW that doing practices would result in me "waking up/unfolding faster."  I can not both do practices and not do practices at the same time and see which one leads to awakening first.  So for me to speculate that I would unfold faster if I continued to do formal practice is nothing but just that, speculation.

This probably didn't make things any more clear, but I did feel a need to at least attempt to clarify.

Love,
Carson

[Bodhi Tree]

It's alright. I read you loud and clear. Trust me, I do.

Often the content of messages is secondary to the tone beneath those messages. My uncle says, "Life is tone." The vibration/intention/emotion beneath words is often confused with a strict, literal interpretation of the message. I've learned to feel the words, more than swallow them at face value. Of course, the face value often reflects the intrinsic vibration, but filtering through the layers is very important to me. And at the deepest of all layers, we are totally joined as ONE--100%. Navigating the layers is the adventure, I guess.

Everything is clear, like a light refracting through a crystal...pure light, as well as a prism of colors.

We're on the same wavelength.

[Etherfish]

Pardon me for butting in, but there are two ways of communicating with words, and two different types of people, each using primarily one type.

One way is to use the literal meaning of words almost exclusively, and the other way is to ignore the meaning of the words, and try to feel the emotion behind them. Traditionally, men are more literal, and women more feelings. These two types have a terrible time trying to communicate with each other.
I'm mostly the literal type, even though I try to feel motivations too. I know women who are so feeling oriented, that you can ask them a very simple yes or no question, and they will not hear the words at all, will not answer yes or no, and will begin talking about what they think you are feeling to drive you to ask the question. I ask the exact same question three times, and still no yes or no.

So as we become more sensitive to the emotions behind the words, please let's not lose our sensitivity to people who are literalists, and "Do you like Italian food?" may be asking for a simple yes or no, or some of it, not anything about my or your feelings about Italian people we know, or what happened the last time we had Italian,
or how you may feel about whether I might ask you to dinner! We just ask literal questions, and file them in our computer-mind folder, and no feelings involved, just data.

Sometimes it's fun talking with those feelings oriented people though, because I can be free for a while, and completely ignore what i know to be true, ignore logic, take no responsibility for the words I say, and just say things that vaguely allude to my feelings at the moment, and they understand!

[kami]

quote:Originally posted by Etherfish

 I know women who are so feeling oriented, that you can ask them a very simple yes or no question, and they will not hear the words at all, will not answer yes or no, and will begin talking about what they think you are feeling to drive you to ask the question. I ask the exact same question three times, and still no yes or no.

Hahahaha

Needed this laugh. Thanks Ether.

[Holy]

To the quote above

You ask her, "do you like Italian more?" And she is thinking about kissing styles, French etc., then answering with something like: "uh, I have to quickly finish this work, will call you later." Then 2 days ignorance of her, your plans to date with her are already for nothing. But hey, she is not so wrong, ultimately what you want from her is very clear dear Ether isn't it? ) But hey, just say "yes I want your love" girl, what's up with these ladies today

Back to the topic

Surely nothing happens before its time. Speeding up a process is (if the process is known) observable. If we are speaking about something unclear, then for sure speeding up or delaying are only concepts. Most probably the words of speeding up have their roots in the word evolution or unfolding of life. Like a flower, which rises from a seed, we can not pull the flower out of the seed, but in good conditions the flower will flower sooner than later. Flowering in terms of being a full human from a to z is according to the observance of those we call rishis something that happens again and again, from age to age, aka from satya yuga to kali yuga and back to satya yuga again. In satya yuga the man is full and complete, a beautiful flower. In kali yuga man is a seed, full of potential, but has yet to grow. Everyone will flower sooner or later, some within one life, some within xy lifes, latest in satya yuga everyone has flowered, at least that is what those wise men say.

If one is in peace with what happens, no matter what, aka if this surrender is happening, then this is already pure grace. Because then one is already free.

Practices, physical fitness, eating and co are a totally different topic. They can increase the quality of life, make it flower in more levels, which is all relative, the ice cake upon eternal peace so to speak.

And then forum chat lke this happens, later we have a delicious meal Why, because it tastes good and the body-mind is happy with it. Practices also taste good and the body-mind is happy. Fitness also makes the body-mind happy. Here it is a very practical thing. If spiritual practices don't make happy, then nautrally they will not happen If they make happy, naturally they will happen.

Waking up, the body is sleepy, no whish to get up then some kriya, refreshing, vibrant, welcome life, partake of this joy Eating, moving, everyone and everythign is happy. After a tired work, back home, some kriya, refreshing.. Mhh the food tastes so well afterwards, the body happy, yippie, welcome night, partake of this joy Not much to think about it, practices is pretty practical It is a sharing of love and joy, nothing else.

People have found out that some physical movements can grow the muscles and increase the metabolism which will decrease illness and increase the quality of life. It is also a sharing of love.

Some have found out, hey, there is something underlying, something eternal which is already happy, onecan also directly melt into that by inquiry and surrender, the first leading to the second. Even though the body may ache or life may happen strangely, the peace will not leave. A GREAT sharing of love.

So fom the pool of love sharings, everyone feels differently attracted. Ultimately, the complete man in satya yuga will have it all. Now in kali yuga we can have some of it, none of it, or all of it.

Peace and love friends

[Bodhi Tree]

There is a feeling-based goddess within me who wants to shine and destroy the barriers of logic with her radiant beams of feminine anti-logic. The beams are like ballistic missiles that hone in and target the shields of literalism until all structure is annihilated.

(Incidentally, when I lived in San Francisco, I hung out with a bunch of gay men, because my cousin is gay, and I got tied into his network, and those "queens" are quite exuberant with their feeling-based language. I, however, remain totally straight and in love with women, though I can't seem to hold onto one.)

Much like Ace Ventura, I am a "lover of all animals."

[Holy]

@maheswari,

how is it going with your added nadi sodhana routine?

@Carson

if it seems like there are two views, it is not so. I'm with you in this. The increased speed is also in time, as the decreased speed. It was clear that it will speed up and it will slow down, so the movie is not played faster, exactly at its time things within the movie move faster or slow down. The watcher of the movie is eternal, beyond time, has already arrived, is already free only lost in the movie sometimes

Peace friends, hope all do fine here