1000 From: "G. LeBlanc" <gleblanc@turningpointonline.info>
Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 1:28pm
Subject: Re: Re: Kechari mudra question gregacu108
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Thanks David for your time and dedication on behalf of Kechari Mudra, considering how important its role is in AYP's I think it is worthy of defense. I am not necessarily against doing it, I just owe it to myself to try and evaluate all the angles and approaches before potentially doing a minor surgical procedure on myself. I think making allusions and comparisons to other similar procedures can be useful, but it also distracts us from what we are specifically talking about. Just because its ok to do one thing, does not make it automatically ok to do something that is like it but different. Comparing vaccines, injections and ear piercing to severing the frenulum is in my mind not equivalent. The earlobes do not provide an actual function in terms of the natural regulating function of the body, and vaccines are strategies for developing immunities to deadly diseases, the frenulum under the tongue has an intended function that was part of the bodies natural evolution. It may be something that we as a species do not need (like tails or the appendix), but for myself I would like to be clear on that and explore other alternatives to achieve the same goals.
Respectfully
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: obsidian9999
To: AYPforum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 9:42 AM
Subject: [AYPforum] Re: Kechari mudra question
Hello Greg,
You are coming up with criteria which differentiate snipping from the
others. Between any two practices there will always be criteria
which distinguish one from another.
A bigger question is, how meaningful are the criteria in and of
themselves?
How solid anyway is the idea that we should avoid modifying what
nature 'selected' to work in a certain way --- where does vaccination
stand then? We are certainly modifying the function of the immune
system by doing vaccination. Did nature 'select' the immune system
*not* to be powerfully resistent to measles? Don't we alter its
function, making it powerfully resistent to measles by vaccinating
against it?
Does the existence of the hymen indicate that nature somehow intended
that it never be broken?
Where does flossing stand in response to a claim that nature selected
our teeth to have plaque between them?
OK, excuse me now while I take a glass of water. There. I'm not
actually being argumentative, though it may seem so on first
glance. You see I have appointed myself on this forum as the
philosophical defender of Clipping Kriya.
That's a role I've
given myself, and I just play it to the max.
You are dead right to stay away from it if you aren't drawn to it or
somehow are resistent to it, whether for now, or forever. If your
Bhakti draws you there, you'll come. If it does not, you won't.
I see myself as providing some philosophical lubrication for people
who feel drawn to head in this direction.
But I don't intend to convince anyone to do it.
Best regards,
-David
> I would agree that an idea of what is acceptable or unacceptable is
mostly just cultural mores, but injections and piercing do not modify
the function of something nature selected to work in a particular
way.
>
> Greg
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: obsidian9999
> To: AYPforum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 5:20 AM
> Subject: [AYPforum] Re: Kechari mudra question
>
>
>
> Hi Greg,
>
> one more piece to chew on; and this is for the 'archives' as
much
> as for you -- we don't seem to mind, in this culture, some body-
> invasion if the medical-scientific establishment considers it
> advisable --
>
> Consider an injection. Why allow this and not some clipping? Is
> one more a 'mortification' than the other?
>
> And injections are *not* just given for sickness; they can be
> given purely preventatively, such as for vaccination.
>
> So:
> clipping
> causes bleeding --- but so does flossing
> changes morphology --- but so does stretching and muscle-
building
> involves some form of cutting into the body
> --- but so does injection and ear-piercing
>
> So, if we believe clipping to be unacceptable but the others
> acceptable, is that belief really coming from a relaible, well-
> thought-out place or is it just coming from nothing more than a
> limiting reaction?
>
> -D
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "G. LeBlanc" <gleblanc@t...>
wrote:
> > I think my question comes from considering the fact that this
is
> potentially a form a body modification/mortification (clipping)
and
> not something that is a natural evolution in practice (a point
that
> has been effectively argued against in past posts). If practice
was
> a stretching of the tongue overtime, allowing it to gradually
make
> its way up then I think it would seem to me to be more organic
and
> progressive. Flossing the teeth can be bloody, but it does not
> involve a morphological change in the gum lines natural structure.
> >
> > Sincerely
> >
> > Greg
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: obsidian9999
> > To: AYPforum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 9:50 AM
> > Subject: [AYPforum] Re: Kechari mudra question
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Greg,
> >
> > to put frenum-snipping in perspective, if people don't floss
> > regularly, many of them will lose MORE blood from simply
> flossing
> > (in the early stages), than they will when they snip their
> frenum.
> >
> > That puts the whole thing in a nice perspective, doesn't
it?
> We
> > don't say to such people, 'No, No, don't start to floss,
> you'll
> > bleed a little! You'll bleed.... NOOOOO ...!' A dentist
will
> > simply say 'Your gums may bleed a little in the beginning as
you
> > start to floss'.
> >
> > It's considered obvious that this is no reason to avoid
flossing.
> >
> >
> >
> > -D
> >
> >
> > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "obsidian9999"
> <obsidian9999@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "G. LeBlanc"
<gleblanc@t...>
> wrote:
> > > > Is it possible to do Kechari mudra without manually
cutting
> the
> > > tongue, if so can you please share ideas and techniques for
> doing
> > so.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hi Greg,
> > >
> > > there is a technique known as 'talavya kriya' (or talabya
> kriya) in
> > > which the frenum is slowly torn bit by bit, over the
years,
> on the
> > > lower teeth. Search for 'talavya' in the forum to see some
> > > discussion. I can't find any direct instructions on
talabya
> kriya
> > on
> > > the internet, but I have seen a diagram before. It's
> basically
> > > pulling the tongue out as far as you can and scraping the
> bottom of
> > > it on the lower teeth. It will be most effective when the
> bottom
> > is
> > > really taut.
> > >
> > > See in particular #305 where I show Yogani's views on it.
> > >
> > > Some people believe that talavya does not involve tearing
the
> > frenum
> > > fibers, but that it still works. I'm not inclined to
believe
> that
> > > but I can't say. I think it's just a low-tech method,
more
> > > appealing to the naturalistic-fallacious point of view,
but
> less
> > > effective than the clipping, and, ironically, actually
> *more*
> > > traumatic to the tongue.
> > >
> > > When done properly, by the way, frenum-snipping is no big
> deal at
> > > all.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > -D
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
> >
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices --
> > To change your email delivery to "daily digest," send a blank
> email to:
> > AYPforum-digest@yahoogroups.com --
> > To stop email delivery and use "web viewing only," send a
blank
> email to:
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> > AYPforum-normal@yahoogroups.com
> > You can also make these changes in "Edit my Membership" on
the
> group home page.
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1001 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 4:00pm
Subject: Re: Kechari mudra question obsidian9999
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--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "G. LeBlanc" <gleblanc@t...> wrote:
>> I think making allusions and comparisons to other similar
procedures can be useful, but it also distracts us from what we are
specifically talking about.
>>Just because its ok to do one thing, does not make it automatically
ok to do something that is like it but different.
Agreed, and I haven't been implying such a thing. I've been
*challenging* all the reasons for opposing this practice, rather
than saying that it is OK; when you point out a *difference* between
frenulum-snipping and other practices, in which you express a
judgement against frenulum-snipping with this difference as a basis,
I'm asking why that judgement is not being applied to yet other cases
which you accept.
>> The earlobes do not provide an actual function in terms of the
natural regulating function of the body
But are you sure that the frenulum does have a natural function
(still) and that the earlobes don't? Was poor Victor (whom I envy)
born short of this function?
>> It may be something that we as a species do not need (like tails
or the appendix), but for myself I would like to be clear on that and
explore other alternatives to achieve the same goals.
Yes, that may indeed be it. Natural selection does not by any means
always finish the job. The fact that it is there doesn't mean that
it is serving a useful function, as you have just said, with the
appendix as a good example. The frenum may have stopped us biting
our tongues at some stage of our evolution, or had some other
function which is long gone away, just like the appendix. Perhaps
it all *had* to loosen up as we started to talk as a species, and
has been dwindling ever since. Indeed, some children are still born
with frenula too limiting to talk properly, and these are generally
cut by doctors -- stragglers in frenulum-selection perhaps. And on
the other hand, there are those born without an appendix, and those
with an unusually unlimiting frenulum (like Victor).
Yogani's approach to it, by the way, is as something that keeps us
out of Kechari until we are ready (and serious about it). I think
this is a very pleasing view, very mythically comforting, but I'm
not sure that it's not just something that happens (for many people)
to be in the way of a great practice.
Blessings,
-David
1003 From: victor yj <vic@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 5:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: Kechari mudra question vic
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Aha! I believe that I may have found a suitable analogy. Some people have attached earlobes while others are free hanging. In the case of teh earlobe tehre is no great function sought after but were it the case that having free earlobes were to aid in meditation I would imagine that snipping them would become quite popular and also have similar controversy.
Truthfully a short frenulum has no function and in some cases it can cause a pathological condition known as tongue tiedness which causes speach impediments, and mouth deformity and which is treated by having the frenulum cut by an oral surgeon.
>> The earlobes do not provide an actual function in terms of the
natural regulating function of the body
But are you sure that the frenulum does have a natural function
(still) and that the earlobes don't?
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1002 From: victor yj <vic@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 5:02pm
Subject: Re: Re: Kechari mudra question vic
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I can personally vouch for the fact that the fenulum of the toungue serves no useful purpose to bodily function. I have noticed absolutely no change in my ability to use my tongue and in my tongue function since practicing kechari mudra beyond the abilities that I have practiced for. None whatsoever.The frenulum may contain a few nerve endings but so does the hymen and teh foreskin of the penis. While I don't advocate circumcision (I chose not to circumcise my son and I am Jewish), I also cite that as a frequent surgical modification that has been going on for centuries with no apparent ill effect ( most jews and others like myself have perfectly healthy sexual function). Actually circumcision is a much much more radical procedure than the tongue snipping yet it is rarely questioned. The same goes for removal of teh appendix, the tonsils and many other medical procedures that are common in our society. Frankly, I really don't see what the fuss is about with teh sniping. The frenulum
is a vestige, a tag of skin nothing more. If you cut it off you will not miss it in the least, won't even notice that its gone. Whether you choose to stretch, snip, or rub in talavaya the result is the same, just different levels of discomfort in teh process. I think that the ideal would be to have an oral surgeon do it once and for all and then get on with teh practice and save some trouble. It is not at all like cutting a muscle to get a stretch. The tongue body is the muscle, the frenulum simply a tag of skin.
Incidently tehre is a surgical procedure that is somewhat similar for people who want to lengthen their penis. There is a suspensory ligament that limits how far the penis extends from teh body. When that is cut more can extend. I don't know anyone who has had this done but i read about it somewhere and just thought I would toss that in.
"G. LeBlanc" <gleblanc@turningpointonline.info> wrote:
Thanks David for your time and dedication on behalf of Kechari Mudra, considering how important its role is in AYP's I think it is worthy of defense. I am not necessarily against doing it, I just owe it to myself to try and evaluate all the angles and approaches before potentially doing a minor surgical procedure on myself. I think making allusions and comparisons to other similar procedures can be useful, but it also distracts us from what we are specifically talking about. Just because its ok to do one thing, does not make it automatically ok to do something that is like it but different. Comparing vaccines, injections and ear piercing to severing the frenulum is in my mind not equivalent. The earlobes do not provide an actual function in terms of the natural regulating function of the body, and vaccines are strategies for developing immunities to deadly diseases, the frenulum under the tongue has an intended function that was part of the bodies natural evolution. It may be
something that we as a species do not need (like tails or the appendix), but for myself I would like to be clear on that and explore other alternatives to achieve the same goals.
Respectfully
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: obsidian9999
To: AYPforum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 9:42 AM
Subject: [AYPforum] Re: Kechari mudra question
Hello Greg,
You are coming up with criteria which differentiate snipping from the
others. Between any two practices there will always be criteria
which distinguish one from another.
A bigger question is, how meaningful are the criteria in and of
themselves?
How solid anyway is the idea that we should avoid modifying what
nature 'selected' to work in a certain way --- where does vaccination
stand then? We are certainly modifying the function of the immune
system by doing vaccination. Did nature 'select' the immune system
*not* to be powerfully resistent to measles? Don't we alter its
function, making it powerfully resistent to measles by vaccinating
against it?
Does the existence of the hymen indicate that nature somehow intended
that it never be broken?
Where does flossing stand in response to a claim that nature selected
our teeth to have plaque between them?
OK, excuse me now while I take a glass of water. There. I'm not
actually being argumentative, though it may seem so on first
glance. You see I have appointed myself on this forum as the
philosophical defender of Clipping Kriya.
That's a role I've
given myself, and I just play it to the max.
You are dead right to stay away from it if you aren't drawn to it or
somehow are resistent to it, whether for now, or forever. If your
Bhakti draws you there, you'll come. If it does not, you won't.
I see myself as providing some philosophical lubrication for people
who feel drawn to head in this direction.
But I don't intend to convince anyone to do it.
Best regards,
-David
> I would agree that an idea of what is acceptable or unacceptable is
mostly just cultural mores, but injections and piercing do not modify
the function of something nature selected to work in a particular
way.
>
> Greg
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: obsidian9999
> To: AYPforum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 5:20 AM
> Subject: [AYPforum] Re: Kechari mudra question
>
>
>
> Hi Greg,
>
> one more piece to chew on; and this is for the 'archives' as
much
> as for you -- we don't seem to mind, in this culture, some body-
> invasion if the medical-scientific establishment considers it
> advisable --
>
> Consider an injection. Why allow this and not some clipping? Is
> one more a 'mortification' than the other?
>
> And injections are *not* just given for sickness; they can be
> given purely preventatively, such as for vaccination.
>
> So:
> clipping
> causes bleeding --- but so does flossing
> changes morphology --- but so does stretching and muscle-
building
> involves some form of cutting into the body
> --- but so does injection and ear-piercing
>
> So, if we believe clipping to be unacceptable but the others
> acceptable, is that belief really coming from a relaible, well-
> thought-out place or is it just coming from nothing more than a
> limiting reaction?
>
> -D
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "G. LeBlanc" <gleblanc@t...>
wrote:
> > I think my question comes from considering the fact that this
is
> potentially a form a body modification/mortification (clipping)
and
> not something that is a natural evolution in practice (a point
that
> has been effectively argued against in past posts). If practice
was
> a stretching of the tongue overtime, allowing it to gradually
make
> its way up then I think it would seem to me to be more organic
and
> progressive. Flossing the teeth can be bloody, but it does not
> involve a morphological change in the gum lines natural structure.
> >
> > Sincerely
> >
> > Greg
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: obsidian9999
> > To: AYPforum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 9:50 AM
> > Subject: [AYPforum] Re: Kechari mudra question
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Greg,
> >
> > to put frenum-snipping in perspective, if people don't floss
> > regularly, many of them will lose MORE blood from simply
> flossing
> > (in the early stages), than they will when they snip their
> frenum.
> >
> > That puts the whole thing in a nice perspective, doesn't
it?
> We
> > don't say to such people, 'No, No, don't start to floss,
> you'll
> > bleed a little! You'll bleed.... NOOOOO ...!' A dentist
will
> > simply say 'Your gums may bleed a little in the beginning as
you
> > start to floss'.
> >
> > It's considered obvious that this is no reason to avoid
flossing.
> >
> >
> >
> > -D
> >
> >
> > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "obsidian9999"
> <obsidian9999@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "G. LeBlanc"
<gleblanc@t...>
> wrote:
> > > > Is it possible to do Kechari mudra without manually
cutting
> the
> > > tongue, if so can you please share ideas and techniques for
> doing
> > so.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hi Greg,
> > >
> > > there is a technique known as 'talavya kriya' (or talabya
> kriya) in
> > > which the frenum is slowly torn bit by bit, over the
years,
> on the
> > > lower teeth. Search for 'talavya' in the forum to see some
> > > discussion. I can't find any direct instructions on
talabya
> kriya
> > on
> > > the internet, but I have seen a diagram before. It's
> basically
> > > pulling the tongue out as far as you can and scraping the
> bottom of
> > > it on the lower teeth. It will be most effective when the
> bottom
> > is
> > > really taut.
> > >
> > > See in particular #305 where I show Yogani's views on it.
> > >
> > > Some people believe that talavya does not involve tearing
the
> > frenum
> > > fibers, but that it still works. I'm not inclined to
believe
> that
> > > but I can't say. I think it's just a low-tech method,
more
> > > appealing to the naturalistic-fallacious point of view,
but
> less
> > > effective than the clipping, and, ironically, actually
> *more*
> > > traumatic to the tongue.
> > >
> > > When done properly, by the way, frenum-snipping is no big
> deal at
> > > all.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > -D
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
> >
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices --
> > To change your email delivery to "daily digest," send a blank
> email to:
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the
> group home page.
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> >
> >
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1004 From: "G. LeBlanc" <gleblanc@turningpointonline.info>
Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 6:25pm
Subject: Re: Re: Kechari mudra question gregacu108
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Thanks everyone for your thoughts and suggestions on this issue, all great food for thought.
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: obsidian9999
To: AYPforum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 1:00 PM
Subject: [AYPforum] Re: Kechari mudra question
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "G. LeBlanc" <gleblanc@t...> wrote:
>> I think making allusions and comparisons to other similar
procedures can be useful, but it also distracts us from what we are
specifically talking about.
>>Just because its ok to do one thing, does not make it automatically
ok to do something that is like it but different.
Agreed, and I haven't been implying such a thing. I've been
*challenging* all the reasons for opposing this practice, rather
than saying that it is OK; when you point out a *difference* between
frenulum-snipping and other practices, in which you express a
judgement against frenulum-snipping with this difference as a basis,
I'm asking why that judgement is not being applied to yet other cases
which you accept.
>> The earlobes do not provide an actual function in terms of the
natural regulating function of the body
But are you sure that the frenulum does have a natural function
(still) and that the earlobes don't? Was poor Victor (whom I envy)
born short of this function?
>> It may be something that we as a species do not need (like tails
or the appendix), but for myself I would like to be clear on that and
explore other alternatives to achieve the same goals.
Yes, that may indeed be it. Natural selection does not by any means
always finish the job. The fact that it is there doesn't mean that
it is serving a useful function, as you have just said, with the
appendix as a good example. The frenum may have stopped us biting
our tongues at some stage of our evolution, or had some other
function which is long gone away, just like the appendix. Perhaps
it all *had* to loosen up as we started to talk as a species, and
has been dwindling ever since. Indeed, some children are still born
with frenula too limiting to talk properly, and these are generally
cut by doctors -- stragglers in frenulum-selection perhaps. And on
the other hand, there are those born without an appendix, and those
with an unusually unlimiting frenulum (like Victor).
Yogani's approach to it, by the way, is as something that keeps us
out of Kechari until we are ready (and serious about it). I think
this is a very pleasing view, very mythically comforting, but I'm
not sure that it's not just something that happens (for many people)
to be in the way of a great practice.
Blessings,
-David
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1005 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri Jun 3, 2005 8:36pm
Subject: Re: Kechari mudra question obsidian9999
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Likewise, thanks for keeping us challenged and on our toes.
Welcome to the board, by the way, if it is your first time.
-D
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "G. LeBlanc" <gleblanc@t...> wrote:
> Thanks everyone for your thoughts and suggestions on this issue,
all great food for thought.
>
> Greg
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: obsidian9999
> To: AYPforum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 1:00 PM
> Subject: [AYPforum] Re: Kechari mudra question
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "G. LeBlanc" <gleblanc@t...>
wrote:
> >> I think making allusions and comparisons to other similar
> procedures can be useful, but it also distracts us from what we
are
> specifically talking about.
>
> >>Just because its ok to do one thing, does not make it
automatically
> ok to do something that is like it but different.
>
> Agreed, and I haven't been implying such a thing. I've been
> *challenging* all the reasons for opposing this practice,
rather
> than saying that it is OK; when you point out a *difference*
between
> frenulum-snipping and other practices, in which you express a
> judgement against frenulum-snipping with this difference as a
basis,
> I'm asking why that judgement is not being applied to yet other
cases
> which you accept.
>
>
> >> The earlobes do not provide an actual function in terms of
the
> natural regulating function of the body
>
> But are you sure that the frenulum does have a natural function
> (still) and that the earlobes don't? Was poor Victor (whom I
envy)
> born short of this function?
>
> >> It may be something that we as a species do not need (like
tails
> or the appendix), but for myself I would like to be clear on
that and
> explore other alternatives to achieve the same goals.
>
> Yes, that may indeed be it. Natural selection does not by any
means
> always finish the job. The fact that it is there doesn't mean
that
> it is serving a useful function, as you have just said, with
the
> appendix as a good example. The frenum may have stopped us
biting
> our tongues at some stage of our evolution, or had some other
> function which is long gone away, just like the appendix.
Perhaps
> it all *had* to loosen up as we started to talk as a species,
and
> has been dwindling ever since. Indeed, some children are still
born
> with frenula too limiting to talk properly, and these are
generally
> cut by doctors -- stragglers in frenulum-selection perhaps. And
on
> the other hand, there are those born without an appendix, and
those
> with an unusually unlimiting frenulum (like Victor).
>
> Yogani's approach to it, by the way, is as something that
keeps us
> out of Kechari until we are ready (and serious about it). I
think
> this is a very pleasing view, very mythically comforting, but
I'm
> not sure that it's not just something that happens (for many
people)
> to be in the way of a great practice.
>
> Blessings,
>
> -David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
>
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices --
> To change your email delivery to "daily digest," send a blank
email to:
> AYPforum-digest@yahoogroups.com --
> To stop email delivery and use "web viewing only," send a blank
email to:
> AYPforum-nomail@yahoogroups.com --
> To resume "individual email delivery," send a blank email to:
> AYPforum-normal@yahoogroups.com
> You can also make these changes in "Edit my Membership" on the
group home page.
>
>
>
>
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