823 From: "RobGee" <robg33@catskill.net>
Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:51am
Subject: observances ginoverdi9
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Hi All:
i have been a meditator for many years but have come to ayp only a few months ago. i have always meditated on the breath as the main aspect of my practice. So-ham or just going with the observation of the inhale and the exhale as the main component.
Sambhavi is not difficult for, mula bhanda easy, uddiyana bandha easy, siddhasana also easy for me to use.
The problem i am having is with the iam mantra and breath. I am finding it difficult to separate pranayama and meditation as Yogani suggested to me in a post. I find myself inhaling on the i and exhaling on the am. i can consciously drop this rhythm but it keeps returning.
i am sure that the practice will eventually smooth this wrinkle out, but i am wondering if any other long time breath aficianados had this problem to begin with.
Thanks,
Hari Om
Rob
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825 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:44am
Subject: Re: observances obsidian9999
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Hi Rob,
yes I do have some suggestions which I think might be quite helpful in your
case.
You are probably very tuned to paying attention to your breath after those
years of experience. You may need a little re-habituation.
I'd suggest beginning your meditation with saying your mantra out loud, at
whatever pace seems natural. Then 'get lazy' and let it get quieter and go to a
whisper and to nothing, while you still follow it with your mind. It could take a
few minutes to get to this point where you are externally silent.
Try starting your meditations this way. See if it helps to rehabituate you. It
may take several months to get rehabituated, so be patient. If and when
starting out loud no longer serves you, don't bother with it.
That's one thing.
Now here's another.
During meditation itself, don't sweat about this. The mantra deserves your
attention. This issue does not. Allow yourself to be lazy about your breath,
but favor your mantra. Who cares about your breath? It will take care of itself.
The mantra is nice and soft and easy, isn't it?
Best regards,
-David
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "RobGee" <robg33@c...> wrote:
>
> Hi All:
> i have been a meditator for many years but have come to ayp only a few
months ago. i have always meditated on the breath as the main aspect of my
practice. So-ham or just going with the observation of the inhale and the
exhale as the main component.
>
> Sambhavi is not difficult for, mula bhanda easy, uddiyana bandha easy,
siddhasana also easy for me to use.
>
> The problem i am having is with the iam mantra and breath. I am finding it
difficult to separate pranayama and meditation as Yogani suggested to me in
a post. I find myself inhaling on the i and exhaling on the am. i can
consciously drop this rhythm but it keeps returning.
>
> i am sure that the practice will eventually smooth this wrinkle out, but i am
wondering if any other long time breath aficianados had this problem to begin
with.
> Thanks,
> Hari Om
> Rob
> ----------
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.2 - Release Date: 4/21/2005
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
826 From: "RobGee" <robg33@catskill.net>
Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:17am
Subject: Re: Re: observances ginoverdi9
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David:
Thank you for the suggestions. I realize undoing and then reforming the way
i meditate will take time and the suggestion of audibly using the iam makes
good sense to me.
The mantra is soft, nice and easy and deserves to be at the forefront.And to
remember that the breath does take care of itself doesn't it, will help.
Thanks again,
Rob
>
>
>
>
> Hi Rob,
>
> yes I do have some suggestions which I think might be quite helpful in
your
> case.
>
> You are probably very tuned to paying attention to your breath after those
> years of experience. You may need a little re-habituation.
>
> I'd suggest beginning your meditation with saying your mantra out loud,
at
> whatever pace seems natural. Then 'get lazy' and let it get quieter and
go to a
> whisper and to nothing, while you still follow it with your mind. It
could take a
> few minutes to get to this point where you are externally silent.
>
> Try starting your meditations this way. See if it helps to rehabituate
you. It
> may take several months to get rehabituated, so be patient. If and when
> starting out loud no longer serves you, don't bother with it.
>
> That's one thing.
>
> Now here's another.
>
> During meditation itself, don't sweat about this. The mantra deserves
your
> attention. This issue does not. Allow yourself to be lazy about your
breath,
> but favor your mantra. Who cares about your breath? It will take care of
itself.
> The mantra is nice and soft and easy, isn't it?
>
> Best regards,
>
> -David
>
>
--
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830 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 0:58pm
Subject: Re: observances jim_and_his_...
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--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "RobGee" <robg33@c...> wrote:
> I realize undoing and then reforming the way i meditate will take time
I'd suggest more undoing than reforming. Don't create structures. Just sit still coexisting
with mantra, nothing more.
831 From: "azaz932001" <richardchamberlin14@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:24pm
Subject: Re: observances azaz932001
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--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "RobGee" <robg33@c...> wrote:
>
>> >HI there Just one thing I remember from when I was first taught TM
someone said to me Just listen for the mantra I think this is good
advice.
Blessings R.C.
> >
> >
> >
836 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:53pm
Subject: Re: observances obsidian9999
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--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "azaz932001" <
richardchamberlin14@h...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "RobGee" <robg33@c...> wrote:
> >
> >> >HI there Just one thing I remember from when I was first taught TM
> someone said to me Just listen for the mantra I think this is good
> advice.
>
> Blessings R.C.
> > >
> > >
> > >
Richard,
yes I think that is a good way of putting it. I've also heard to 'think the mantra
don't say it'.
Any polish-up instruction is a double-edged sword of course, because it can
(seem) to make the instruction more complex.
You may have noticed too Richard that the TM people teach the mantra out
loud first (but generally only in the first session). At least they did when I was
learning it.
Blessings,
-David
838 From: "azaz932001" <richardchamberlin14@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:30pm
Subject: Re: observances azaz932001
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--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@y...>
wrote:
>
>
> >
> Richard,
>
> yes I think that is a good way of putting it. I've also heard
to 'think the mantra
> don't say it'.
>
> Any polish-up instruction is a double-edged sword of course,
because it can
> (seem) to make the instruction more complex.
>
> You may have noticed too Richard that the TM people teach the
mantra out
> loud first (but generally only in the first session). At least
they did when I was
> learning it.
>
> Blessings,
>
> -David
Yes I remember that, first they said the mantra and then you had to
repeat it softer and softer until it was just thought it's a good
method of imprinting.
By listening for the mantra you go very deep very quickly too,
sometimes too deep too quickly and you get jerked straight out of it
but its still a good way well at least it works for me. Your right
about the polish up instructions. That's one of and probably the
worst trick your mind plays as well, it says "if something's this
good it must be complicated" its not.
Blessings R.C.
835 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:43pm
Subject: Re: observances obsidian9999
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Hi Rob,
thanks. Let me know if the suggestion ( for the audible mantra practice) helps
in practice. I'd like to know because I'd like to evaluate the usefulness of that
tip. It did help me in my own experience.
Regards,
David
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "RobGee" <robg33@c...> wrote:
>
> David:
> Thank you for the suggestions. I realize undoing and then reforming the way
> i meditate will take time and the suggestion of audibly using the iam makes
> good sense to me.
> The mantra is soft, nice and easy and deserves to be at the forefront.And to
> remember that the breath does take care of itself doesn't it, will help.
> Thanks again,
> Rob
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Rob,
> >
> > yes I do have some suggestions which I think might be quite helpful in
> your
> > case.
> >
> > You are probably very tuned to paying attention to your breath after those
> > years of experience. You may need a little re-habituation.
> >
> > I'd suggest beginning your meditation with saying your mantra out loud,
> at
> > whatever pace seems natural. Then 'get lazy' and let it get quieter and
> go to a
> > whisper and to nothing, while you still follow it with your mind. It
> could take a
> > few minutes to get to this point where you are externally silent.
> >
> > Try starting your meditations this way. See if it helps to rehabituate
> you. It
> > may take several months to get rehabituated, so be patient. If and when
> > starting out loud no longer serves you, don't bother with it.
> >
> > That's one thing.
> >
> > Now here's another.
> >
> > During meditation itself, don't sweat about this. The mantra deserves
> your
> > attention. This issue does not. Allow yourself to be lazy about your
> breath,
> > but favor your mantra. Who cares about your breath? It will take care of
> itself.
> > The mantra is nice and soft and easy, isn't it?
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > -David
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.2 - Release Date: 4/21/2005
828 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 0:47pm
Subject: Re: observances jim_and_his_...
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Rob,
First, read lesson #106, which addresses this.
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices/106.html
Just keep doing it, and let go control of the mantra and of the breath. Meditation is, after
all, about letting go. If you have attachments re: how the mantra will flow, let that serve as
valuable insight that you have lots of other attachments on this path. We cut through them
by simply letting go. It's internal downsizing.
So...don't be attached to the breath, the process, the vocal component of mantra, even the
sound of it. Unleash it. Let the mantra work on you rather than vice versa. And unleash the
notion of the mantra working on you. And unleash the notion of unleashing. And opt out
of the entire spiral and just let things happen.
My suspicion is that the ease with which you've picked up some of the practices is working
against you. You're expecting it all to be easy. Drop those expectations, and embrace the
clunky periods....the clunky periods are the periods when the most progress is being
made, so relish that friction (as weight lifters relish the ache in their biceps).
Also, I'd caution against jumping around. The "I Am" meditation is step one, and the other
practices you're doing are more advanced. Please reread Yogani's cautions with regard to
self-pacing.
J&K
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "RobGee" <robg33@c...> wrote:
>
> Hi All:
> i have been a meditator for many years but have come to ayp only a few months ago. i
have always meditated on the breath as the main aspect of my practice. So-ham or just
going with the observation of the inhale and the exhale as the main component.
>
> Sambhavi is not difficult for, mula bhanda easy, uddiyana bandha easy, siddhasana also
easy for me to use.
>
> The problem i am having is with the iam mantra and breath. I am finding it difficult to
separate pranayama and meditation as Yogani suggested to me in a post. I find myself
inhaling on the i and exhaling on the am. i can consciously drop this rhythm but it keeps
returning.
>
> i am sure that the practice will eventually smooth this wrinkle out, but i am wondering if
any other long time breath aficianados had this problem to begin with.
> Thanks,
> Hari Om
> Rob
> ----------
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.2 - Release Date: 4/21/2005
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
839 From: "RobGee" <robg33@catskill.net>
Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:51pm
Subject: Re: Re: observances ginoverdi9
Offline
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Thanks, Jim Lesson 106 does answer it for me. The other practices, mula,
uddiyana and sambhavi seem to have come easy only because i have practiced
them along with hatha for many, many years. And yes the clunky periods are
what builds us. I think it was Meister Eckhart that wrote "Spiritual
muscles, like physical muscles are strengthened by
setbacks/friction/clunkiness.
Thanks, all for the help.
Rob
>
>
>
> Rob,
>
> First, read lesson #106, which addresses this.
http://www.geocities.com/> advancedyogapractices/106.html
>
> Just keep doing it, and let go control of the mantra and of the breath.
Meditation is, after
> all, about letting go. If you have attachments re: how the mantra will
flow, let that serve as
> valuable insight that you have lots of other attachments on this path. We
cut through them
> by simply letting go. It's internal downsizing.
>
> So...don't be attached to the breath, the process, the vocal component of
mantra, even the
> sound of it. Unleash it. Let the mantra work on you rather than vice
versa. And unleash the
> notion of the mantra working on you. And unleash the notion of unleashing.
And opt out
> of the entire spiral and just let things happen.
>
> My suspicion is that the ease with which you've picked up some of the
practices is working
> against you. You're expecting it all to be easy. Drop those expectations,
and embrace the
> clunky periods....the clunky periods are the periods when the most
progress is being
> made, so relish that friction (as weight lifters relish the ache in their
biceps).
>
> Also, I'd caution against jumping around. The "I Am" meditation is step
one, and the other
> practices you're doing are more advanced. Please reread Yogani's cautions
with regard to
> self-pacing.
>
> J&K
--
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842 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:28pm
Subject: Re: observances jim_and_his_...
Offline
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Rob, just as a cautionary tale.... I, too, got into this after decades of very intense hatha
yoga practice, plus meditation, microcosmic orbit, and a lot more. And so I, too, started
cutting through AYP materials, figuring out I didn't have to start at the beginning, because
a lot of it seemed elementary.
To make a long story short, I finally did back up and start at the beginning. Got pretty
toasted for a while there. The sequencing is ingenious and vital to the practice. I'd really
recommend not jumping ahead, and of not "doubling up" by doing other meditative/
pranayama practices simultaneously (asanas are fine).
Just my two cents......happy to discuss further if you'd like....
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "RobGee" <robg33@c...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Jim Lesson 106 does answer it for me. The other practices, mula,
> uddiyana and sambhavi seem to have come easy only because i have practiced
> them along with hatha for many, many years. And yes the clunky periods are
> what builds us. I think it was Meister Eckhart that wrote "Spiritual
> muscles, like physical muscles are strengthened by
> setbacks/friction/clunkiness.
> Thanks, all for the help.
> Rob
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Rob,
> >
> > First, read lesson #106, which addresses this.
http://www.geocities.com/> > advancedyogapractices/106.html
> >
> > Just keep doing it, and let go control of the mantra and of the breath.
> Meditation is, after
> > all, about letting go. If you have attachments re: how the mantra will
> flow, let that serve as
> > valuable insight that you have lots of other attachments on this path. We
> cut through them
> > by simply letting go. It's internal downsizing.
> >
> > So...don't be attached to the breath, the process, the vocal component of
> mantra, even the
> > sound of it. Unleash it. Let the mantra work on you rather than vice
> versa. And unleash the
> > notion of the mantra working on you. And unleash the notion of unleashing.
> And opt out
> > of the entire spiral and just let things happen.
> >
> > My suspicion is that the ease with which you've picked up some of the
> practices is working
> > against you. You're expecting it all to be easy. Drop those expectations,
> and embrace the
> > clunky periods....the clunky periods are the periods when the most
> progress is being
> > made, so relish that friction (as weight lifters relish the ache in their
> biceps).
> >
> > Also, I'd caution against jumping around. The "I Am" meditation is step
> one, and the other
> > practices you're doing are more advanced. Please reread Yogani's cautions
> with regard to
> > self-pacing.
> >
> > J&K
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.2 - Release Date: 4/21/2005
841 From: "RobGee" <robg33@catskill.net>
Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:54pm
Subject: Re: Re: observances ginoverdi9
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I will try that, David and will keep you informed although i'm sure that
won't be by tomorrow, unfortunately.I was taught that mantra is always
practiced in three steps. The first step is audible, then repeated silently
moving the lips, then silently.
Thank you again
Rob
>
>
>
>
> Hi Rob,
>
> thanks. Let me know if the suggestion ( for the audible mantra practice)
helps
> in practice. I'd like to know because I'd like to evaluate the usefulness
of that
> tip. It did help me in my own experience.
>
> Regards,
>
> David
--
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843 From: "RobGee" <robg33@catskill.net>
Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:02pm
Subject: Re: Re: observances ginoverdi9
Offline
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Jim:
I am starting at the beginning and taking it all as it comes, slowly. The
only aspect of my past practices that im keeping is the hatha as i also
instruct it.Other than that, this practice rings true and honest to me, and
i would be doing it and myself a disservice, to dilute it. My progress is
going to be at a slower pace than i usually go, to savor it all and allow it
to unfold in it's own timing.
Thanks for all the advice, from all of you. It feels very comfortable here.
Rob
>
>
>
> Rob, just as a cautionary tale.... I, too, got into this after decades of
very intense hatha
> yoga practice, plus meditation, microcosmic orbit, and a lot more. And so
I, too, started
> cutting through AYP materials, figuring out I didn't have to start at the
beginning, because
> a lot of it seemed elementary.
>
> To make a long story short, I finally did back up and start at the
beginning. Got pretty
> toasted for a while there. The sequencing is ingenious and vital to the
practice. I'd really
> recommend not jumping ahead, and of not "doubling up" by doing other
meditative/
> pranayama practices simultaneously (asanas are fine).
>
> Just my two cents......happy to discuss further if you'd like....
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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844 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:46pm
Subject: Re: observances jim_and_his_...
Offline
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Great, Rob, I'm really happy to hear it. Also, it's good to see another
experienced hatha yogi involved and liking AYP. There are a few others here, and we all
seem to be from the Iyengar system...AYP is the missing yin to Iyengar's yang.
I missed commenting on your Meister Eckhart quote ("Spiritual muscles, like physical
muscles are strengthened by setbacks/friction/clunkiness"). I realize that Ram Dass isn't
all that popular these days, because his efforts to speak in the vernacular of his era
makes his stuff seem embarrassingly hippy-dippy-trippy to the present day reader. But he
expressed some things so well, and this best of all: he wrote a book called "Grist for the
Mill" that is as insightful an exploration of exactly what you're saying as I could imagine.
The term "suffering is good for the soul" (which my parents toldme every time I sprained
an ankle or was forced to eat canned peas) never did much for me. But the image of grist
being worked on by powerful millstones is much more evocative!
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "RobGee" <robg33@c...> wrote:
>
> Jim:
> I am starting at the beginning and taking it all as it comes, slowly. The
> only aspect of my past practices that im keeping is the hatha as i also
> instruct it.Other than that, this practice rings true and honest to me, and
> i would be doing it and myself a disservice, to dilute it. My progress is
> going to be at a slower pace than i usually go, to savor it all and allow it
> to unfold in it's own timing.
> Thanks for all the advice, from all of you. It feels very comfortable here.
> Rob
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Rob, just as a cautionary tale.... I, too, got into this after decades of
> very intense hatha
> > yoga practice, plus meditation, microcosmic orbit, and a lot more. And so
> I, too, started
> > cutting through AYP materials, figuring out I didn't have to start at the
> beginning, because
> > a lot of it seemed elementary.
> >
> > To make a long story short, I finally did back up and start at the
> beginning. Got pretty
> > toasted for a while there. The sequencing is ingenious and vital to the
> practice. I'd really
> > recommend not jumping ahead, and of not "doubling up" by doing other
> meditative/
> > pranayama practices simultaneously (asanas are fine).
> >
> > Just my two cents......happy to discuss further if you'd like....
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.2 - Release Date: 4/21/2005
847 From: "RobGee" <robg33@catskill.net>
Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:31am
Subject: Re: Re: observances ginoverdi9
Offline
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i remember Grist and i now remember Eckhart's line. "Spiritual muscles, the
same as physical muscles are built through resistance."
Resistance meaning the socalled "bad times". Which began to make real sense
to me when i heard the phrase " We suffer when we want something other than
what is." Buddha.
Rob
>
>
>
> Great, Rob, I'm really happy to hear it. Also, it's good to see another
> experienced hatha yogi involved and liking AYP. There are a few others
here, and we all
> seem to be from the Iyengar system...AYP is the missing yin to Iyengar's
yang.
>
> I missed commenting on your Meister Eckhart quote ("Spiritual muscles,
like physical
> muscles are strengthened by setbacks/friction/clunkiness"). I realize that
Ram Dass isn't
> all that popular these days, because his efforts to speak in the
vernacular of his era
> makes his stuff seem embarrassingly hippy-dippy-trippy to the present day
reader. But he
> expressed some things so well, and this best of all: he wrote a book
called "Grist for the
> Mill" that is as insightful an exploration of exactly what you're saying
as I could imagine.
> The term "suffering is good for the soul" (which my parents toldme every
time I sprained
> an ankle or was forced to eat canned peas) never did much for me. But the
image of grist
> being worked on by powerful millstones is much more evocative!
--
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850 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:35am
Subject: Re: observances jim_and_his_...
Offline
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The beautiful thing about hatha yoga is that asanas present distilled models of "hard
times" in what's essentially a controlled laboratory setting. We're presented with
carefully devised barriers and impediments that must be overcome with grace, and learn
to make progress without striving. Every asana conundrum we transcend enriches and
opens us....without our having to undergo the death of a loved one to reap the benefit.
Sorry to nitpick, but I have to clarify on the Buddha quote. "Suffering" is a mistranslation
(unfortunately much repeated) of dukkha. It's really more like "dis-ease", a state of being
thrown out of harmony (hmmm...."harmony" is weak, but I'm in a hurry and can't find a
better word...just stick with dis-ease, which learned sanskrit scholars assure me is an apt
translation). So that quote, while a really great one, doesn't really speak directly to the
grist phenomena. But I'm nitpicking....what you're saying is certainly wise and true, and
that's all that matters.
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "RobGee" <robg33@c...> wrote:
>
> i remember Grist and i now remember Eckhart's line. "Spiritual muscles, the
> same as physical muscles are built through resistance."
> Resistance meaning the socalled "bad times". Which began to make real sense
> to me when i heard the phrase " We suffer when we want something other than
> what is." Buddha.
> Rob
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Great, Rob, I'm really happy to hear it. Also, it's good to see another
> > experienced hatha yogi involved and liking AYP. There are a few others
> here, and we all
> > seem to be from the Iyengar system...AYP is the missing yin to Iyengar's
> yang.
> >
> > I missed commenting on your Meister Eckhart quote ("Spiritual muscles,
> like physical
> > muscles are strengthened by setbacks/friction/clunkiness"). I realize that
> Ram Dass isn't
> > all that popular these days, because his efforts to speak in the
> vernacular of his era
> > makes his stuff seem embarrassingly hippy-dippy-trippy to the present day
> reader. But he
> > expressed some things so well, and this best of all: he wrote a book
> called "Grist for the
> > Mill" that is as insightful an exploration of exactly what you're saying
> as I could imagine.
> > The term "suffering is good for the soul" (which my parents toldme every
> time I sprained
> > an ankle or was forced to eat canned peas) never did much for me. But the
> image of grist
> > being worked on by powerful millstones is much more evocative!
