641 From: "nearoanoke" <nearoanoke@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 0:57pm
Subject: Re: Backstretch as prelude to meditation nearoanoke
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Hi David,
I agree with you on the advantages of backstrech. When i do it i
clearly feel some shake/movement kind of thing in the back.
During mornings asanas are hard to do (body is not flexible) while
evenings i feel it really flexible. is there anything i could do
before asanas in the morning to enhance my flexibility?
Also how about the idea of meditating in shoulder stand? i know it
can be very difficult but it can be very useful also. what do u guys
think?
Love, Near
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@y...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Ram,
>
> I meant that backstretch itself, done for a long time, is great
> prelude to meditation. Were you wondering if I thought others were
> good as a prelude to meditation? Probably the two that also stand
> out most are shoulderstand and headstand. If shoulderstand and
> headstand are the king and queen, I would say backstretch is the
> president. Or the prime minister.
>
> When you get really flexible and comfortable with the backstretch,
> it's a great one to hold for a long time. When you are really
> comfortable with it, you can use a strap so that you can relax in
the
> backstretch and use it as a meditation in itself; you can make a
> loop with it and wrap it around your legs and hold this loop with
> your elbow; this strap can be used not so much to pull extra
tightly
> rather but to allow the body to relax deeply.
>
> It's one to go slow with, just like all the postures. being able
to
> easily do a six or ten-minute stint in it might be the fruit of
> months or years of build-up.
>
> Speaking of overdoing it, I once got this great sense that I
> was "overcoming a major block" when doing a backstretch and I
wanted
> to do it harder and harder. And I probably was releasing something
> at the time. But I got hold of a strap and pulled really hard and
> held for a really long time. And my leg started to get a bit
numb.
> And I said 'hell with it, it'll be fine, I've got this major
block
> being released and that is really important'. I held for about a
> half-hour. The numbness in my leg did not go away when I stopped.
> Nor the next day. Nor the next day. Nerve damage basically.
Nerve
> damage. Pride of the Yogis. Many weeks later, it was eventually
> gone, so I think I got away with no permanent damage. I was a
> fool, and got away with it this time. I learned my lesson. Never
> again. Sometimes you might be overcoming a major block but that is
> no reason to behave foolishly.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> -David
>
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, Ram Narayan Gupta <rngupta31@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > dear David!
> > Would you please be a bit specific about what type of asanas do
you
> think are good for backstrech as prelude to meditation.
> > Thanks & regards,
> > R N Gupta
> >
> > obsidian9999 <obsidian9999@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I have found shoulderstand wonderful.
> >
> > I'd like to mention to anyone who is looking for a meditation-
> > enhancing pose (and yes, they are all, in a way meditation-
> > enhancing);
> >
> > I was glad of a tip that backstretch done for a long time can be
a
> > great prelude to meditation. I don't know why this is, and I
cannot
> > claim to be an expert on hatha yoga. Maybe it's something about
> > stretching those lower back muscles? Maybe it's the huge mass of
> > muscle stretched, since so many leg muscles are stretched and leg
> > muscles are more than half of the body's muscle mass. But
whatever
> > the reason, the backstretch done and held for a while (maybe five
> or
> > six minutes or so when you are used to it) can be a great prelude
> to
> > meditation. A wonderful one. I've found my chitta-levels drop to
> > say maybe even a third after a good long backstretch.
> >
> > By the way, if you do a long backstretch, come out nice and
> > slowly. This can be relative to the time you've spent in it.
> >
> > Blessings -- David
> >
> >
> > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Victor knows this, but I'm just chiming in to add that while
> > shoulderstand is indeed
> > > important to counteract headstand, and soothe nerves, it also
> does
> > a lot more than that.
> > > Shoulderstand and headstand are the cruxes of asana
> practice....the
> > queen and king of
> > > poses, respectively. The benefits of shoulderstand are too many
> to
> > list.
> > >
> > > So since it's great to do...but also risky to do....it makes
> sense
> > to limit the risk. Hence, my
> > > piles of blankets. I haven't done the pose sans blankets in
over
> 20
> > years. But the pose is so
> > > important that....words fail. It's really important.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, victor yj wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Jim described it well. The 7th cervical vertebrae (vertebrae
> > prominans) is at the base of
> > > the neck just before the first thoracic. This is the spot that
> > tends to get the brunt of
> > > shoulderstand. Shoulderstand seems to be a problematic posture
> for
> > many and most
> > > chiropractors advise against it. If one does headstand however
it
> > is important to releive
> > > trhe pressure on the neck afterwards and that is an important
> role
> > for shoulderstand and
> > > plough. It also soothes the nerves and gives an inverted pose
> that
> > helps counteract some
> > > of the impact of gravity.
> > > >
> > > > jim_and_his_karma wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There are better people than me to answer this (victor,
> probably,
> > for that matter). I'm
> > > not
> > > > real schooled in anatomy, just well trained in yoga. But let
me
> > take a stab, and others
> > > can
> > > > correct.
> > > >
> > > > The vertebara which gets crunched in shoulder stand (and,
less,
> > halasana) is the one
> > > right
> > > > at the base of where neck joins shoulders. It's easy to
> > confirm...do a shoulder stand, and
> > > > notice what's sitting on the floor bearing all your weight.
> > That's the one. Poor little guy.
> > > >
> > > > Try doing shoulder stand on smooth, carefully folded blankets
> (no
> > lumps!). A rise of as
> > > > much as like 4 inches is fine. Make sure that the rounded
part
> of
> > the fold is the part
> > > facing
> > > > your neck, and let your neck extend a couple inches past this
> > (i.e. the edge of the
> > > blankets
> > > > shouldn't actually touch your neck). Shoulders and arms on
the
> > blankets. You'll see that
> > > > this vertebra is now free and clear and bearing no load.
> > > >
> > > > Try an experiment. Next person you meet who practices yoga,
ask
> > if they use blankets
> > > in
> > > > shoulderstand. If the answer is "no", ask to touch this
> vertebra.
> > It will almost certainly be
> > > > swollen. It's an intrinsic problem with yoga. Note, though,
> that
> > some smart people (as
> > > > experienced as I am) believe the dangers are overblown. But
why
> > take the chance?
> > > >
> > > > Work hard to move all your weight up, up, up. Aim to walk on
> the
> > ceiling. And don't let
> > > > your elbows splay out. I use a belt to keep them narrow and
> > parallel. And don't let the
> > > > weight of trunk and legs fall on your neck. It's shoulder
> stand,
> > not neck stand. Keeping
> > > the
> > > > body quite straight, slowly move your feet in the opposite
> > direction of your head until
> > > the
> > > > weight is truly on your shoulders. It may seem hard to
sustain,
> > but you'll get used to it!
> > > >
> > > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Very interesting. I thought I was pretty safe doing these
> > shoulder
> > > > > stands due to my slim but relatively muscular physique. But
> in
> > light
> > > > > of what you've written here, I'll certainly have to
> reconsider
> > that.
> > > > > Tell me... I haven't had much experience w/ spinal anatomy.
> > How
> > > > > exactly do I find C5/C6? Is C6 the one that juts out the
most
> > at the
> > > > > base of the neck before it starts curving back?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Greg M.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "jim_and_his_karma"
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But all the senior teachers, to my knowledge, use
multiple
> > blankets.
> > > > > Iyengar has disavowed
> > > > > > many things in LIght on Yoga...he's learned much in the
> half
> > century
> > > > > since the book came
> > > > > > out. And I think you may be understating his rationale
for
> the
> > > > > blankets. It wasn't an "oh,
> > > > > > what the hell" thing. Consider: Patricia Walden (one of
the
> > two top
> > > > > Iyengar yogis in US,
> > > > > > famed for being able to do every pose in Light on Yoga,
> does
> > 100+
> > > > > dropbacks into urdva
> > > > > > dhanurasana, etc) has recently gone from three blankets
to
> > two in
> > > > > her shoulderstand
> > > > > > practice, only because after decades of work she is
finally
> > able to
> > > > > elevate the cervical
> > > > > > vertebra on her own...a little (Iyengar himself creates
an
> > enormous
> > > > > tunnel in the spinal
> > > > > > cavity - you can plunge your fist in easily when he's in
> > shoulder
> > > > > stand or halasana...so he
> > > > > > doesn't need blankets).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And since (at least in strict Iyengar practice)
> shoulderstand
> > > > > follows immediately after
> > > > > > halasana, without pause, it's hard to imagine how the
> blanket
> > stack
> > > > > could be modified on
> > > > > > the fly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That said, the whole point of yoga is to do what you
think
> is
> > right
> > > > > for you, plus Iyengar is
> > > > > > just one system, anyway, so I'm not arguing with you,
> Victor!
> > I
> > > > > think we can at least agree
> > > > > > that blankets are a good path of caution. I know that I'd
> > have a
> > > > > much better neck today
> > > > > > (and a vertebra less reminscent of a squashed kiwi fruit)
> if I
> > > > > hadn't done a few years of
> > > > > > blanketless shoulderstand and halasana practice. I wasnt'
> > then (and
> > > > > still am not today,
> > > > > > decades later) able to get c6/c7 off the ground through
> sheer
> > > > > physical control.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, victor yj
> > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > While the blankets are certainly helpful (and not at
all
> > mentioned
> > > > > in "Light On Yoga") I do
> > > > > > not find them as necessary in Halasana as in the
> > shoulderstand. I
> > > > > would certainly fold up a
> > > > > > blanket or two to put under the shoulders in Halasana if
> for
> > no
> > > > > other reason than to
> > > > > > prevent the occiput from taking too much pressure on the
> > floor but I
> > > > > also see a trend
> > > > > > towards too much reliance on lots of blankets. Iyengar
> > developed
> > > > > this blanket usage for
> > > > > > people with stiff necks and then decided that it would be
> > safer for
> > > > > everyone. I still
> > > > > > recommend it especially in shoulderstand but you need
less
> in
> > plough
> > > > > as the weigh is also
> > > > > > distributed through the feet rather than in a line
directly
> > over the
> > > > > neck.
> > > > > > > This use of the blankets should be folded flat and
> stacked
> > with
> > > > > two or three blankets
> > > > > > stacked and placed on the floor. the head lies off of the
> > vblankets
> > > > > on the floor while the
> > > > > > arms and shoulders are supported by the blankets. One
should
> > > > > experiment with how many
> > > > > > blankets rtanging from 1 to 4 depending on your length of
> > neck, size
> > > > > of blankets, stiffness
> > > > > > etc. Don't worry about beineg beginner or advanced with
> this,
> > use
> > > > > what feels the most
> > > > > > comfortable, supportive and encourages the lift in the
neck
> > that I
> > > > > talked about.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > jim_and_his_karma wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Greg, I'd very strongly recommend this book:
> > > > >
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/> > > > > > > detail/-/0679722874 if you have no choice but to work
> from
> > books.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are great Iyengar school teachers in SF. Ping
again
> > if you
> > > > > need reccos.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hello Victor,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, indeed. It helps very much. Thank you. I look
> > forward to
> > > > > > > > making the adjustments for this morning's practice.
> > Given that
> > > > > > > > explanation, I can see now how proper instruction is
> > considered so
> > > > > > > > necessary. Right now, where I live, that's not an
> > option, but soon
> > > > > > > > (hopefully) I'll be moving down to the Bay Area (CA)
> and
> > will most
> > > > > > > > assuredly be getting proper instruction at that time.
> > Until
> > > > > then, the
> > > > > > > > book and this forum are my only resources.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thank you,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Greg M.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, victor yj
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What you want is to roll the shoulders towards the
the
> > > > > > > > shoulderblades so that the bodyweight is balanced as
> much
> > as
> > > > > possible
> > > > > > > > on the shoulders and not on the neck. the feeling
> should
> > be that the
> > > > > > > > neck is somewhat lifted from the floor by the
roatation
> > of the
> > > > > > > > shoulders. The sequence for hand placement in
halasana
> is
> > first to
> > > > > > > > hold the back as in shoulderstand. In some months as
> this
> > > > > becomes easy
> > > > > > > > then take the arms over the ehad on the floor towards
> the
> > feet. Then
> > > > > > > > when this becomes easy one take the hands and arms in
> the
> > opposite
> > > > > > > > direction from the feet but not interlocking. The
final
> > grasp of the
> > > > > > > > hands is the icing on the cake. It should go along
with
> > the lift of
> > > > > > > > the neck from the floor and the weight on the
> shoulders.
> > There
> > > > > should
> > > > > > > > feel no pressure on the 7th cervical vertebrae and
the
> > neck should
> > > > > > > > retain as much of its natural curve as possible
rather
> > than being
> > > > > > > > flattened on the floor or lengthening. Do not try to
> > lengthen
> > > > > the neck
> > > > > > > > but feel that the neck is light with minimal stretch
to
> > > > > > > > > the back of the neck. stretch should be at the
throat
> > with
> > > > > the chin
> > > > > > > > untucking and soft as the chest moves towards the
chin.
> > > > > > > > > Does that help?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Greg wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I thank you for your concern, but I consider myself
> to
> > have a very
> > > > > > > > > good sense of bodily awareness developed through
> years
> > of
> > > > > training in
> > > > > > > > > other disciplines. Given the nature of yoga, I find
> my
> > level of
> > > > > > > > > consciousness heightened even more as I do the
> > exercises.
> > > > > What
> > > > > > > > > then is the best way to increase the requisite
> > flexibility in
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > > area?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thank you,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Greg M
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, victor yj
> >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Don't worry about the interlock, just keep the
> hands
> > loose
> > > > > or hold
> > > > > > > > > tghe back with them at first. Halasana takes time
and
> > to try
> > > > > to push
> > > > > > > > > too far too fast will do more harm than good. Just
> take
> > it
> > > > > slow and go
> > > > > > > > > with the breath and the feeling. This pose and
> > shoulderstand
> > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > really be taught by a good teacher though rather
than
> > from a
> > > > > book as
> > > > > > > > > the neck is very delicate and you don't want to
> injure
> > your neck.
> > > > > > > > > Trust me on that.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Greg wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hello everyone,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I just recently started doing Hatha yoga and am
> > following the
> > > > > > > > > > beginner's regimen as outlined in BKS
> > Iyengar's "Light on
> > > > > Yoga". The
> > > > > > > > > > second to final asana in the first two week
course
> is
> > called
> > > > > > > > > > Halasana (Pgs 216-220 if you have the book). I'm
> > having
> > > > > trouble with
> > > > > > > > > > interlocking my hands and most especially with
> > turning them
> > > > > over.
> > > > > > > > > > Does anyone have a tip or two that will help with
> > this? I'm
> > > > > uncertain
> > > > > > > > > > if it's a matter of simple flexibility or if it's
> > more the
> > > > > case of
> > > > > > > > > > muscle getting in the way. Any advice is welcome.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thank-you,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Greg M
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > PS I hope this is the right forum in which to
post
> > this.
> > > > > If not, I
> > > > > > > > > > apologize.
> > > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > > >
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> on
> > the
> > > > > group home page.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > > > > > >
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AYPforum/> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > > > > AYPforum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms
> > of
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > > > > Yahoo! Messenger
> > > > > > > Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join
the
> > fun.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
> > > >
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices --
> > > > To change your email delivery to "daily digest," send a blank
> > email to:
> > > > AYPforum-digest@yahoogroups.com --
> > > > To stop email delivery and use "web viewing only," send a
blank
> > email to:
> > > > AYPforum-nomail@yahoogroups.com --
> > > > To resume "individual email delivery," send a blank email to:
> > > > AYPforum-normal@yahoogroups.com
> > > > You can also make these changes in "Edit my Membership" on
the
> > group home page.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > > >
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AYPforum/> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > AYPforum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
> >
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices --
> > To change your email delivery to "daily digest," send a blank
email
> to:
> > AYPforum-digest@yahoogroups.com --
> > To stop email delivery and use "web viewing only," send a blank
> email to:
> > AYPforum-nomail@yahoogroups.com --
> > To resume "individual email delivery," send a blank email to:
> > AYPforum-normal@yahoogroups.com
> > You can also make these changes in "Edit my Membership" on the
> group home page.
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your life partneronline.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
