Gurus Gone Wrong

[riptiz]

Dear David,
I cannot be specific as to the location as someone mailed me privately and pointed out the post where you gave your opinion that Yogani was a greater meditation teacher than Paramhansa. Now I think we can all agree that Yogani can explain it to Western English speaking people clearer and that much can be lost in translation from a different language.I am not doubting that Yoganis teachings are clear and concise although by his own admission you don't need theory to progress simply practice is enough.In fact traditionally gurus don't encourage questions because the aim of meditation is to quieten the mind and questions do the opposite to our minds.As Jim says in another post ' Don't learn more. Don't think more. Don't understand more. Just do the practices, and don't aim to block or leap or permit or DO anything. Just sit down and say "I am" a lot. Simple. Period. And let the cosmic barber trim your hair. Less you, please.'

L&L
Dave

'the mind can see further than the eyes'

[david_obsidian]

Dave,
in that case  I can see how someon would think I was mythologizing Yogani.

In the mind of someone in whome Parahamsa is mythologized,   giving the opinion that Yogani is more accurate does mythologize Yogani.  But I don't agree with the mythologization of Parahamsa in the first place.

I just tried to paint what I believe is a more balanced picture of Parahamsa Y:

quote:For advice on meditation practice, I'd personally favor Yogani as a Rishi over Paramhansa. The latter is more famous, but the former I believe has a greater quality of teachings, at least on the intellectual level.

That's my opinion.  It's not necessarily a very important one in itself,   but my main point is that if you find little inconsistencies beteen PYs meditation instruction and Yogani's,  you should think twice before automatically choosing PYs because he is more famous,  or,  shall we say,  'better mythologized',  LOL.  

[riptiz]

Dear David,
Actually Parahamsa is certainly not mythologised in my eyes as I don't know anything about him or about many of the famous gurus as I prefer to practice than read about others practicing.I certainly don't expect realisation by reading about someone else sat in a cave for years on end.We all find our own path and I tell my students this is the way I have been taught, if you decide to do differently by experimenting then you are responsible for the results.That doesn't mean they are wrong if they decide to go another way , just that they take responsibility for their actions and results.
L&L
Dave

'the mind can see further than the eyes'

[david_obsidian]

I understand.

Dave said
mailed me privately and pointed out the post where you gave your opinion that Yogani was a greater meditation teacher than Paramhansa.

Yeah,  the person who mailed you about that,  if they thought it was a big deal,   might well have a mythology about Paramhansa.  There is certainly one out there.....

From my point of view,  I'm just saying,  'Don't assume that the yoga teacher about whom the bigger deal is made,  is more accurate'.

[Etherfish]

I've gone through all of paramahansa yogananda's lessons and started on his kriya lessons. his lessons are more comprehensive as far as describing how the world is put together and how energies flow, and how to live you life and deal with others.
But none of that really helps yoga practices. His meditation techniques take up a lot of time, and become very complicated. There is a listserver where his students communicate, and nobody is experiencing the kind of phenomena people talk about here.
Nothing against Yogananda though. I think everything he did was wonderful, and his organization is good. But the time he was alive had a whole different set of problems people were working on spiritually, and there was less ambient spiritual energy, so he didn't have the opportunity to give us what AYP is giving us.
Ironically, I believe most of the power created by AYP is by Yogani showing us what to take away from all the multitudes of traditional yoga knowledge, and lucky for us, that is most of it!

[Shanti]

quote:I believe most of the power created by AYP is by Yogani showing us what to take away from all the multitudes of traditional yoga knowledge, and lucky for us, that is most of it!

Very well said Ether. Thank you.

[riptiz]

Hi Ether,
And even these lessons are not needed unless one simply wants academic knowledge.Having vast knowledge of scriptures or Yogani's lessons will not raise your levels without practice.So it is more important to be doing than talking about it.
L&L
Dave

'the mind can see further than the eyes'

[david_obsidian]

Thanks for your reply,  Yogani.

Yogani said:
Oh, and thanks David for not mythologizing AYP or me. Now, excuse me while I climb back up on my pedestal.

LOL!  

[Frank-in-SanDiego]

Hari Om
~~~~~~~~

quote:Originally posted by Shanti

Why are you guys singling out gurus that let you down...

Brilliant!

Every action is by choice, the fruit we gain , we 'earn'. We have freedom over action alone ( or our selections) never over their fruits... so say the sages.


agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego

[david_obsidian]

I didn't agree that that was 'brilliant'.  No-one singled out gurus here,  rather someone,  who had trouble with a guru (whom I expect may have been misbehaving),  came here for some help and perspective,  thinking it might be a good place to find it.

In any situation that can be called guru-cultic situation,  if a person is harmed/wronged by a guru, it is turned back on the disciple,  as if to deny or wash over wrongdoing on the part of the guru,  and indicate that the disciple has merely failed in perspective,  and merely needs to improve in it.

I don't agree with that approach.  The approach is in fact often tantamount to a denial of abuse, and therefore the enabling of abuse.  The mythologization of the guru is really a major enabler of the abuse.  My first line of help is to help them acknowledge that the mythology was incorrect:  this person was never what they were promoted to be;  a lie was lived.  And bad things followed from that.

[Frank-in-SanDiego]

Hari Om
~~~~~~~~

quote:Originally posted by david_obsidian

I didn't agree that that was 'brilliant'.

Hello David, your point is duly noted.  What I thought was brilliant was Shanti putting the issue into a larger context.  I still think it is... value {for me} is all about getting things in perspective. It made me think. It took me from the specific to a macro-issue.  The logic and insight of Shanti's warranted recognition.

Does this infer your point is less, or that your opinion is less?  Nope


agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego

[david_obsidian]

Well,  the language was just ambiguous maybe.  Shanti's point is fine,  as long as she is not intending to dismiss the rightful process of realizing that a particular kind of deception has occurred.

Sure,  eventually, all the tools of spiritual perspective are appropriate for dealing with chela-abuse by a guru,  just as any form of abuse.  It's just important how these tools are brought in.  I think they should be brought in with care not to dismiss the other processes that such a person whould go through.  And one of those processes is,  as I was saying,  recognizing that a particular kind of deception and betrayal occurs in an abuse-by-guru situation.

[nearoanoke]

Hi Dave,

I personally dont see any mytholization with david wanting to prefer Yogani's teachings to PY's teachings atleast on an intellectual level.

If we see history most famous ppl are not that famous at their times. People recognized their importance only after they left. May be Yogani is one of those biggies, we dont know on what spiritual level he is. We are not in a position to judge who is better between Yogani and PY.

Intellectually and in bringing Yoga to the common man, Yogani's work is definitely the best till now. No doubt in that. Not only PY but lot of other historical spiritual traditions have kept lot of things under hood and their instructions are not so easy to read and follow. There can be faster methods, quicker paths but when these techniques need to be kept open and taken to the layman, there will be some compromise that needs to be made on efficiency. On the least I can take AYP to be a set of inspirational readings that can get me started on spiritual path. Nothing else can get us started so quickly am sure. I find it very efficient too. For me it is the quickest path.

Coming to idolizing one's guru it depends on the experiences we have with our guru, good or bad. People cannot be cheated for long. At the same time I have learnt from this forum and david's posts specifically why expecting perfection is bad. It is really a good thing to keep in mind, not expecting perfection in our guru. Helps us spiritually a lot in keeping our faith despite some minor shortcomings of guru. As long as faith is there, the connection is strong and we will continue to have benifit from teachings.

-Near

[Jim and His Karma]

quote:Originally posted by riptiz
traditionally gurus don't encourage questions because the aim of meditation is to quieten the mind and questions do the opposite to our minds.

I'm not sure the problem is the noise level of the mind. The issue is whether you IDENTIFY with your mind (regardless of how noisy it is). And discussing/analyzing/intellectualizing the spiritual path strengthens that bond of identification...and brings it into our practices.

AYP is skillfully written to keep things simple. When we try to "fill in details", we go the wrong way.

I find that as I meditate and melt, a tinny patter of narrative thought continues most of the time, like an AM radio droning in the background. Sometimes my mind can even flare up into big noisy thoughts.  Fine. I just don't identify with it. I don't aim to stop it (after wasting 20 years trying to do so). I just let it be, like allowing clouds to drift across the sky.

Let it be. Don't fix stuff. Stop trying. Come as you are.

[Frank-in-SanDiego]

Hari Om
~~~~~~~


Hello David, Jim, Shanti, Ether, Alan, et.al,

Can you advise if anyone has/had a guru/sisya relationship? and if anyone is speaking from personal experience during this thread?

thx


agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego