Author Topic: spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit  (Read 5876 times)

snake

  • Posts: 238
spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit
« on: August 30, 2006, 01:15:42 AM »
spinal breathing is considered dangerous to some because it doesnt bring the energy down the front of the body.

Please comment on this as it can be worrying
 thanks

yogani

  • Posts: 6025
    • AYP Plus
spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2006, 04:37:38 AM »
Hi Snake:

In yoga, the energy coming down the front is regarded primarily as biological, and for that reason is handled mainly with physical methods such as jalandhara bandha, dynamic jalandhara/chin pump, kechari and sambhavi. The lower mudras and bandhas are involved on the other end of the cycle -- mulabandha/asvini (root) and uddiyana/nauli/navi (mid-body).

Obvously, it is the same neuro-biology occurring in the nervous system whether we are in Taoism, Indian Yoga, or any other system of practices. In yoga, the spinal nerve is given preference on the neurological side going in both directions, particularly with spinal breathing pranayama where there is an awakening and balanced blending of ascending and descending pranic energies in the spinal nerve -- an energy dynamic that is apparently not recognized in the same way in Taoism.

The related, but separately regarded "nectar cycle" in yoga is more in line with the Taoist view of the micro-cosmic orbit, with sweet secretions coming down from the brain with the rise of ecstatic conductivity, down through the nasal pharynx, into the digestive system and chest, reprocessed, and cycled back up to the brain again via the spine as a luminous mint-like substance (soma) resulting from "refined digestion" of food & nectar, sexual essenses and air in the GI tract.

I believe the Taoists call the digestive aspect of the cycle, "alchemy occurring in the cauldron," so we are most likely talking about the same process. Only one nervous system, with one process of enlightenment going on...

So, yoga recognizes the cycle. It just divides it into two overlapping components (biological and neurological) and promotes them with an array of practices known to provide the appropriate stimulation.

As they say, "Whatever works!" [:)]

The guru is in you.

snake

  • Posts: 238
spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2006, 04:57:04 AM »
thankyou for that most enlightening reply Yogani

Bill

  • Posts: 46
spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2006, 02:50:41 PM »
Thank you Yogani for this post.  i have been expreiencing my MO during the meditation phase of ayp practice lately and yes I do favor the mantra but have been suprised by this.
When I did taoist practices a while ago I had a hard time getting a feeling for the energy coming down the front and now I think that maybe thats a phase of the practice that shouldn't be done intentionally but that it happens when it is right.  Maybe that is another aspect of what you mean when you say its biological, it should be an organic unfolding.  
There are taoist approaches that use the spinal nerve for ascending and descending.  I can think of two in the popular scene of teachings.

Jim and His Karma

  • Posts: 2018
spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2007, 03:40:21 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by Bill
[When I did taoist practices a while ago I had a hard time getting a feeling for the energy coming down the front and now I think that maybe thats a phase of the practice that shouldn't be done intentionally but that it happens when it is right.  



My experience is that blocks down the front need very careful and conscious addressing. The practices that yogani cites for addressing front channel (jalandhara bandha, dynamic jalandhara/chin pump, kechari and sambhavi) are "balanced" practices that hasten the "up" as well as the "down". For those like me who are naturally very blocked on the "down", more specific work on that is required, and IMO you can't beat the Taoist practices for this. Note that even yogani does tai chi. Neither spinal breathing nor the aforementioned front channel practices will ground you sufficiently if you have a bad front channel downward block.

the big problem happens when kundalini arrives.if you have a downward block in the front channel, pranayama up and down the spinal nerve won't help much (the "up" will carry loads more energy...last thing you need....and the "down" will be insufficient to balance). You're going to need to work on that front channel, to ground the energy.

The reason walking is so inevitably prescribed for kundalini issues (and general over-energized symptoms) is that the connection of feet and earth grounds the energy. But whereas the Indians are only concerned with upwardness, the Taoists have developed far more sophisticated tools for grounding. Look to them for anything grounding, anything yin, anything water. Yogani says that increased silence/shiva is the answer to over-energization. Yin, grounding, water, are the taoist analogs to silence/shiva.

I started with microcosmic orbit, abandoned it for AYP, resumed it when AYP awakened my kundalini, and abandoned it once again, because I didn't want to mix and match practices. But I'm currently back to microcosmic orbit, have worked VERY hard on my front channel, which is finallly (after many years) opening, and it all feels very very very right. Doing meditation with a dynamic energetic loop in place (using no will to keep it in place!) is incredibly smoother, and much harder to overdo, than doing it like a thermometer, with the mercury ready to blast through the end of the glass.

If you don't have a downward block in your front channel (or symptoms of gravely requiring grounding)***, then none of this is relevant to you. This advice is highly specific to just a few practitioners.


***- symptoms include headache, feeling of pressure in forehead or crown, vastly faster and more intense "upward" pranayama than "downward", TMJ (pain in jaw joint), irritibility after practice (even with sufficient rest).
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 04:04:07 AM by Jim and His Karma »

emc

  • Posts: 2055
spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2007, 07:19:41 AM »
"Yin, grounding, water, are the taoist analogs to silence/shiva."

Hm. Is that true? I have always thought the feminine-masculine to be analogs. Yin, cold, water - Shakti, cool waves from below in spinal breathing
Yang, heat - Shiva, hot streams from third eye down the spine in spinal breathing.

Jim and His Karma

  • Posts: 2018
spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2007, 07:44:58 AM »
Maybe I got my terms crossed. Shakti is the hot fiery kundalini, and Shiva is the cool silence, no?

avatar186

  • Posts: 145
spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2007, 03:38:53 PM »
once heard that shakti is only "firey" if the channels arent open.

emc

  • Posts: 2055
spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2007, 05:30:23 PM »
I also would find that the most logical, Jim, but reading this made me think elsewise:

Q&A – Cool and warm currents in pranayama
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/63.html

"As sexual energy comes up it has that coolness to it,
and the warmness going back down."

I think Shakti is coming from the root and Shiva from the ajna... Confusing, this topic! [:)]
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 05:34:45 PM by emc »

hopeless meditator

  • Posts: 38
spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2007, 05:57:14 AM »
Hope I am not off topic here, but I recently read a book by a Daoist practitioner in which he referred to Fire and Water meditation methods. However, he didn't go into any detail about these. Can anyone explain what Water meditation methods consist of? [?]

Jim and His Karma

  • Posts: 2018
spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2007, 06:20:35 AM »
hopeless: water is grounding....energy down through feet into the earth. focuses on front channel. it's the opposite of yoga meditation, which is the ultimate fire path...upward and upward. the taoists have stuff for this, see Mantak Chia and Michael Winn if necessary. I do a form of this called deep earth kidney pulsing. A very short, simple physical practice (a qidong, really) that opens front channel and grounds the energy.

Avatar186, it only gives burns if channels aren't open (and nobody's are full open). but burn or not, it's fire.

though, again, I'm not sure I have the terms right and I don't have time to do quick research right now...

avatar186

  • Posts: 145
spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2007, 12:42:47 PM »
so is the key to be.  open enough to be enflamed in fire, yet not singed by it.
ni believe the vibrating breathe energy is the other half of this.

riptiz

  • Posts: 718
spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2007, 02:26:20 AM »
Hi Hopeless meditator,
I think what you are talking about is the yin/yang style of meditation that is used in Nei Gung. This combines the yin and yang (which is the true meaning of the symbol).The Yang comes from the earth and the yin from the heavens.Search for John Chang on Youtube to see him in action using the abilities gained.
L&L
Dave

hopeless meditator

  • Posts: 38
spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2007, 01:20:08 AM »
Thanks guys! Nei gung and kidneys keep coming to my attention lately. Many thanks for the helpful references to follow this up.

Jim and His Karma

  • Posts: 2018
spinal breathing versus microcosmic orbit
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2007, 03:10:11 AM »
Here's the gist: visualize (it helps to be standing or walking) your solar plexus being connected to the center of the earth. GROUNDING. Let it happen through the feet.

If you try this and get kidney pain, diarreah or night time fever, it's ok It's a healing/flushing thing. Buzzing soles-of-the-feet is also fine.

This is great for yogis, who do so little to really ground their energy all the way. Lack of grounding increases fire (aka pitta) which dries out the kidneys, which diminishes the digestive fire, which requires the lighter yogic diet. And note that grounding (and balancing the fire/pitta) does not in any way put a damper on one's kundalini. It just traverses the microcosmic/macrocosmic orbit.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 03:12:36 AM by Jim and His Karma »