Buddhism, The Rainbow Body and Enlightenment

[jeff]

quote:Originally posted by parvati9


The real question for me is not how to let go of issues and obstructions without creating further impediments, albeit definitely a crucial part of the process....but rather how is the physical body transmuted at the cellular level into an appropriate vehicle for the light body to function with at a higher level?  In addressing that question, I suggested that a kind of focused intent or practice may be required for an alchemical transmutation or shift to a higher frequency/dimension.

Do you think it kinda sorta just happens as we let go of more and more issues and obstructions?  

Hi Parvati,

From my perspective, that is an excellent and very profound question. Also, very timely as I had been pondering something similar. I think it depends on the tradition and the perspective of how "the movie ends".

Since this is a thread on Buddhism...

I would say that the Lankavatara Sutra (Chapter 8) speaks directly to that question (and agrees with you about the "intent")...

"The exalted state of self-realisation as it relates to an earnest disciple is a state of mental concentration in which he seeks to indentify himself with Noble Wisdom. In that effort he must seek to annihilate all vagrant thoughts and notions belonging to the externality of things, and all ideas of individuality and generality, of suffering and impermanence, and cultivate the noblest ideas of egolessness and emptiness and imagelessness; thus will he attain a realisation of truth that is free from passion and is ever serene. When this active effort at mental concentration is succesful it is followed by a more passive, receptive state of Samadhi in which the earnest disciple will enter into the blissful abode of Noble Wisdom and experience its consumations in the transformations of Samapatti. This is an earnest disciple's first experience of the exalted state of realisation, but as yet there is no discarding of habit-energy nor escaping from the transformation of death.
    Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.
    But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation."

What are your thoughts on the topic?

Best, Jeff

[parvati9]

Hi Jeff,

Could you simplify, clarify and say what this passage means or what value you derive from it?  My commentary is without purpose when the meaningful value of the passage remains obscure to me.

Mindfulness I get.    But much of Buddism has to be translated or explained in simple terms for me to get it.          






(edited for clarity and brevity)


 

 

 




 

[jeff]

Hi Parvati,

I apologize for just providing the "raw" Buddhist text and be happy to try to paraphrase.

In Buddhism, the highest realization is known as the Noble Wisdoms (sometimes called the 3 wisdoms). It is beyond the "Void" and sort of where the Buddhas "hang out". The text states that after you go beyond the mind, you first come to a state of bliss where you have not yet released all of your obstructions. And that this state of bliss is so powerful (and nice) that many stay there. Staying there leads to "ceasation" or a return to void/nothingness. The text maintains that you must maintain your "intent/remember your vow" to make it to "buddhahood".

In essence, it states that there is a "choice" or "intent must be maintained" to continue on. Therefore, I said it supported your earlier point. Many traditions believe that there is only "one" or "oneness" and nothing beyond it. Hence, they believe there is no point to the rainbow body (ongoing obstruction removal) concept.

Hope that helps.

Best, Jeff

[parvati9]

Hi Jeff,

Thankyou, much better .  Formal Buddhism is apparently written in a secret code.  It helps to have the translation.

So you are interpreting the vow to mean intent.  Very interesting.

You have also translated rainbow body as ongoing obstruction removal.  I still think it is more than that.  Letting go of obstructions and issues is probably the most important part of it.  To me, that is the first step.  It may be the only step.  But I doubt it.  My intuition tells me there is more to it than that.  So maybe the rest of it is indicated by the vow?  This is like a foreign language, I'm at a serious disadvantage due to lack of familiarity with the language.

I don't get it yet.  1)beyond mind..   2)bliss..   3)void..   4)noble wisdoms  ...is that correct?  If you remain in bliss, how can you return to the void when it is the next higher stage?  Or does it fork at bliss i.e., if you try to stay in bliss, you go to the void.  But if you remain unattached and remember your intent (vow), you go to the noble wisdom stage?

What kind of vow is the text referring to?  A vow is not only a focused intent, it is a commitment.    







 

[parvati9]

My definition of commitment:  A sustained promise.  A declaration,  pledge, bond or union; to be held accountable to a specific purpose.  Commitment also implies perseverance, not giving up until one's promise has been fulfilled.

Dictionary definition of persevere:  To persist in a state, enterprise or undertaking in spite of counter influences, opposition or discouragement.    

Dictionary definition of commit:  To bring about, obligate, bind, to pledge or assign to some particular course or use.  

Dictionary definition of commitment:  An agreement or pledge to do something in the future, the state of being obligated.

My definition of vow:  A solemn oath

Dictionary definition of vow:  A solemn promise or assertion, one by which a person binds himself to an act, service or condition.  To bind or consecrate.  



 

[jeff]

quote:Originally posted by parvati9

Hi Jeff,

Thankyou, much better .  Formal Buddhism is apparently written in a secret code.  It helps to have the translation.

So you are interpreting the vow to mean intent.  Very interesting.

You have also translated rainbow body as ongoing obstruction removal.  I still think it is more than that.  Letting go of obstructions and issues is probably the most important part of it.  To me, that is the first step.  It may be the only step.  But I doubt it.  My intuition tells me there is more to it than that.  So maybe the rest of it is indicated by the vow?  This is like a foreign language, I'm at a serious disadvantage due to lack of familiarity with the language.

I don't get it yet.  1)beyond mind..   2)bliss..   3)void..   4)noble wisdoms  ...is that correct?  If you remain in bliss, how can you return to the void when it is the next higher stage?  Or does it fork at bliss i.e., if you try to stay in bliss, you go to the void.  But if you remain unattached and remember your intent (vow), you go to the noble wisdom stage?

What kind of vow is the text referring to?  A vow is not only a focused intent, it is a commitment.    

Hi Parvati,

The Buddhist "vow" is essentially a commitment is work for the ongoing "enlightenment" of all sentient beings. Buddhists believe that "everyone" needs to be enlightened for there to be complete enlightenment. A Buddha is sometimes described as on who holds open the "door".

I completely agree that there is a real physical transformation of the body and did not mean to imply otherwise. Also, Buddhist "completion stage" practices do consist of having transformational "intent". Depending on your perspective, the intent could be described as either "obstruction removal" or transformation. I just tend to think of it as obstruction removal. If you are interested, I am happy to discuss more about the component practices and their "purpose".

The order is a little different than you describe. If you are interested in the specific stages, take a look at the stages of progression thread. We are sort of discussing from 8 on up.

Best, Jeff

p.s. Also, there may be some confusion on the definition of "mind". In Buddhism, it means more like "universal mind". Their perspective is that everything that we call "reality" is just an apparent reality in "universal mind". So, for a Buddhist, seeing beyond mind is percieving beyond reality, time and space. The concept is sort of like the "Matrix" movies.

(edit - added ps)

[jeff]

quote:Originally posted by parvati9

My definition of commitment:  A sustained promise.  A declaration,  pledge, bond or union; to be held accountable to a specific purpose.  Commitment also implies perseverance, not giving up until one's promise has been fulfilled.
...

Hi Parvati,

Below is a specific Sutra (Lankavatra - Chapter XI) reference to the "vow" and it's importance. This might also help with your question...

The Bodhisattva feels within himself the awakening of a great heart of compassion and he utters his ten original vows:

To honor and serve all Buddhas; to spread the knowledge and practice of the Dharma; to welcome all coming Buddhas; to practice the six Paramitas; to persuade all beings to embrace the Dharma; to attain a perfect understanding of the universe; to attain a perfect understanding of the mutuality of all beings; to attain perfect self-realization of the oneness of all the Buddhas and Tathagatas in self-nature, purpose and resources; to become acquainted with all skillful means for the carrying out of these vows for the emancipation of all beings; to realize supreme enlightenment through the perfect self-realization of Noble Wisdom, ascending the stages and entering Tathagatahood.
 
In the spirit of these vows the Bodhisattva gradually ascends the stages to the sixth. All earnest disciples, masters and Arhats have ascended thus far, but being enchanted by the bliss of the Samadhis and not being supported by the power of the Buddhas, they pass to their Nirvana. The same fate would befall the Bodhisattvas except for their sustaining power of the Buddhas, by that they are enabled to refuse to enter Nirvana until all beings can enter Nirvana with them.

The Tathagatas point out to them the virtues of Buddhahood which are beyond the conception of the intellectual-mind, and they encourage and strengthen the Bodhisattvas not to give in to the enchantment of the bliss of the Samadhis, but to press on to further advancement along the stages. If the Bodhisattvas had entered Nirvana at this stage, and they would have done so without the sustaining power of the Buddhas, there would have been the cessation of all things and the family of the Tathagatas would have become extinct.

[Christi]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for clarifying that. A similar thing to the Bodhisattva vow is found in AYP yoga. It is here in lesson 329

"As we are approaching individual enlightenment, we begin to know ourselves to be all that is around us. Then the condition of consciousness of all who are around us is seen to be our condition. So we will not be fully enlightened until everyone is enlightened. This is why so-called enlightened people continue to work for the benefit of all. Their liberation will not be fulfilled until everyone’s is. And neither shall ours."

The only difference is that in Yoga, no vow is taken. It is simply a recognition that comes as the sense of individuality is transcended and one's individual condition is seen to be not separate from that of all beings. So there is a natural flowing from the heart into service. The body of light is a part of that.

Christi

[parvati9]

Hi Jeff,

A vow is a very special and unique type of focused intent.  While a vow may have sacred or consecrated elements to it, in the case of classic Buddhist texts and doctrine, these often remain elusive, mysterious, nebulous (or too complex for simple minds ).  As opposed to being clear and specific.

Clear, specific and easy to grasp is what I'm aiming for and what was meant by focused intent.  So while I heartily endorse any and all earnest efforts to interface with the Divine, for myself I choose to employ guidance and/or methods which can be easily understood.  (As would most of us, I think)

The sustaining power of the Buddhas (or one's divine consciousness of choice) would perhaps be reflected in the sustaining power of one's commitment.  I would call this bhakti, the 2-way transmission, flow and exchange of spiritual energies.  Love and devotion.  For me, this is a vital ingredient of endeavors to realize and/or build the rainbow body.

A vow is for the duration.  A commitment is for the duration.  All vows are commitments.  But not all commitments are vows.

Focused intent need engage neither commitment nor vow.  Focused intent, imo, is merely being very clear and precise about the use of one's energy in achieving one's purpose or goal.  Or the desires of one's heart.  I believe that bhakti, or passion in one's heart and soul, must be harnessed and utilized in order to facilitate the type of endeavors being contemplated in this thread.

 
 

[jeff]

Hi Parvati,

I may have missed the "intent" of your previous post.  I did not realize the detail of your distinctions in the word usage. I was only providing sutra that effectively agrees that "more than just obstruction removal" as part of the process and not attempted to differentiate between intent and vow.

I completely agree that any such endeavor is one for the heart and soul and not something of the mind (or ego). Buddhist completion stage practices cannot even be started until the mind is "quiet".

On the sustaining point, in Buddhism, the "sustaining power of the Buddhas" is a "one way" thing, more of an "outflowing" or "love" to help others become Buddhas. They "keep the lights on" whether we pay attention or not and are to be "emulated" rather than "devoted to".

Best, Jeff

[parvati9]

quote:Originally posted by jeff

Hi Parvati,

I may have missed the "intent" of your previous post.  I did not realize the detail of your distinctions in the word usage. I was only providing sutra that effectively agrees that "more than just obstruction removal" as part of the process and not attempted to differentiate between intent and vow.

I completely agree that any such endeavor is one for the heart and soul and not something of the mind (or ego). Buddhist completion stage practices cannot even be started until the mind is "quiet".

On the sustaining point, in Buddhism, the "sustaining power of the Buddhas" is a "one way" thing, more of an "outflowing" or "love" to help others become Buddhas. They "keep the lights on" whether we pay attention or not and are to be "emulated" rather than "devoted to".

Best, Jeff

Hi Jeff,

With regard to the "one way" thing...it seems you have interpreted the text correctly.    

My mistake, with reference to reading the text, was assuming that the receptivity and response of the spiritual seeker is paramount.  When a spiritual seeker sends a return current to the enlightened master or buddha, it is a supremely important part of the process imo.    

Indeed, it would seem that this building and/or realizing of the rainbow body is virtually impossible without some kind of ongoing divine assistance or support.  Guidance and encouragement from the divine (enlightened ones), questions and gratitude from the spiritual seeker.  Thus a 2-way energy exchange.  But hey we can agree to disagree can't we.
 
As for love, devotion and emulation...it's all good.  If you resonate with emulation and not devotion, that's cool..  Imo emulation is a powerful form of bhakti.  If you object to the term bhakti that's cool too.  

As for my generic usage of focused intent, I didn't mean to be contentious, only wanted to be understood.  Please forgive if I caused offense.


parvati


   

[jeff]

Hi Parvati,

No offense taken at all. And I like the term Bhaki.  I enjoy the discussion.  Also, I am definitely not trying to say that I know all the answers. Just sharing my perspective.

The two way energy exchange is an interesting topic.  It sounds like you are familiar with a "guru" connection. Is that correct?

Also, are you familiar with Tummo, and the "consort" and "divine yoga" aspects of the completion stage?

Best, Jeff

[avatar186]

Taoism.
Buddhism
Yoga
They all teach the same alchemical truth.
That through opening and closing the body.
One may transmute the body both physically and spiritual.
Through fire and water.

I have experianced this personally
 I have spent 9 years studying. 7 spacifically on internal transformation.

I am convinced it is done through control of cellular respiration "hyper and hypo ventilation respectively"

Histamine is the spirit of the body, kundalini. The mystic heat that turns the body red. Oxygen or air is the celestial spirit the universal spirit.

In short your uniting them.
By using the control of cellular breathing you nourish the internal fire. And the internal fire transforms all. Don't you know?!?
for at first fire is hot and red, but as fire is further refined it turns to light.
Hence why a flame has a radiance of light.

I can explain all this in much more detail. Medical terms or classic terms such as Jing qi and shen. Or bindu prana tejas ojas.
Or alchemical salt sulphur and mercury.
I have only recently figured this out. So I am refining the method of opening. I can slow cellular breathing easily.
speeding it up and realeasing histamine I suck at still. So I'm workin on it.

[AYPadmin]

hi there
USA
2 Posts

Posted - Aug 31 2019 :  12:30:10 AM  Show Profile  Email Poster  Edit Reply  Reply with Quote  View user's IP address  Get a Link to this Reply  Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Suryakant

The trajectory of this thread reminds me of some words spoken by Neem Karoli Baba: "It is deception to teach by individual differences and karma. See all the same. You can't realize God if you see differences. Learn to find the love within."
Go to Top of Page
hi there
USA
2 Posts

Posted - Aug 31 2019 :  12:37:54 AM  Show Profile  Email Poster  Edit Reply  Reply with Quote  View user's IP address  Get a Link to this Reply  Delete Reply
You can just be - a Nobody Meditator - all alone with No Teacher - and enter into 'The Rainbows of Dissolution'. And then step out of them later too - With Some Great Help...for all your Prayers to All - to Please Stop it.

Go to Top of Page
maverick angel
France
40 Posts

Posted - Sep 04 2019 :  4:30:47 PM  Show Profile  Email Poster  Visit maverick angel's Homepage  Edit Reply  Reply with Quote  View user's IP address  Get a Link to this Reply  Delete Reply
I personally believe in the possibility of the rainbow body. My kundalini awakened to the crown chakra about eight years ago and I underwent a great deal of phenomena. Then about three years ago everything changed. I had dream where I was told about the Body of Light, then dreams where finger nails and hair were poured into my hands and I was told to look after these relics. I had no idea that leaving behind just hair and nails is typical of the rainbow body. Then a series of shocking visions ensued, what Buddhists call empty forms. These are smoke, mirage, fireflies, butterlamp ect. You will find them in the upanishads, highest yoga tantras of Buddhism and the Great Perfection. They are the signs that occur at death, it?s called bringing death onto the path, it?s training for actual death so you can control it. I died everyday and night for three years. The signs occur when the winds that normally course either side of sushumna in ida and pingala enter sushumna. This causes the mind of clear light to manifest and the creation of the sambhogakaya. A being that havs achieved rainbow body can manifest anywhere to help those on the spiritual path. I was honored in this way and have seen the rainbow body. I have seen nearly all the visions listed in the visionary yogas like kalakackra and Dzogchen, yet I am not Buddhist or Hindu. I believe that rainbow body is entirely natural and is not owned by any system or religion, the possibility is open to us all.