1082 From: "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:31pm
Subject: Too much pranayama, not enough meditation? obsidian9999
Offline
Send Email
Guys,
here's a snippet of an email from Yogani which I thought is relevant
to your discussion:
>>> Traditional kriya yoga comes up short in the meditation
department. It is their greatest failing, and it really shows in long
time kriya practitioners who have done a lot of spinal breathing with
inadequate deep meditation.
He isn't talking about Iyengar per se, but you can see clearly that
he believes that you generally need meditation in addition to
pranayama. Perhaps this is the reason why you observe these things
in Iyengar practicioners? Perhaps insufficient meditation (mantra
yoga)?
Mantra yoga certainly always got certain juices flowing for me that
pranayama could never release by itself.
-David
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, victor yj <vic@y...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> "And, fwiw, I'm super against Iyengar's pranayama (and I speak as a
serious Iyengar yoga
> stalwart for decades). I still practice asanas in the Iyengar
style, but I've completely
> migrated to AYP for pranayama. Most hardcore Iyengar practioners
get sort of brittle, hard
> and dry...repressed anger, etc. I'm sure it's the pranayama."
>
> Thats a good question, Jim. I don't really know many Iyengar people
that actually practice pranayama but there does seem to be a very
pervasive brittleness and suppressed anger. It is very apparent.
>
> After practicing Iyengar pranayama for many years I have completely
switched over to AYP with no regrets. The difference to me is very
distinct. For one thing the iyengar style emphasises keping the chest
very lifted and expanded which after many years brought me to a place
of over expansion of teh front body and also an erroneous sensation
of the breath moving in front of the spine. When I closely observe
the spinal breathing and also look at anatomy and where the actual
spinal nerve is located I see that it is actually behind teh
vertebral bodies so it is actually in the back body. When I moved my
awareness of the soinal nerve as well as of the flow of the breath
through that the sensation was of relief and balance immediately. I
am not accusing Iyengar of giving false information but that somehow
I didn't *get* this understanding till I switched to AYP. I also
since practicing kechari no longer seal teh breath in the throat
during kumbhaka but keep the throat soft and open as if
> continuing to inhale. This has greatly releive d pressure in the
torso and belly and lets the energy connect the head to the rest of
teh body. I could go on.......
>
> Lets see. For me doing pranayama with a static jalandhara and
kumbhaka does seem to give a brittleness and rigidity whereas letting
teh head rotate in the chin pump releases that energy and gives it
somewhere to go. Now if we could just organize a school at some point
I wonder if there would be interest from students of yoga ready to go
deeper...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>
http://mail.yahoo.com >
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
1083 From: "Melissa" <mm7810@gmail.com>
Date: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:24pm
Subject: Re: Too much pranayama, not enough meditation? mm78102002
Offline
Send Email
Hi David -
I find your comments below quite interesting. In reading "The Death
of Death", which is said to be transcribed from Babaji, it says that
during this time period of Kali yuga, mantras are the MOST effective
means of yogic practice. Just thought I would add that little
tidbit fwiw.
Melissa
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@y...>
wrote:
>
> Guys,
>
> here's a snippet of an email from Yogani which I thought is
relevant
> to your discussion:
>
> >>> Traditional kriya yoga comes up short in the meditation
> department. It is their greatest failing, and it really shows in
long
> time kriya practitioners who have done a lot of spinal breathing
with
> inadequate deep meditation.
>
> He isn't talking about Iyengar per se, but you can see clearly
that
> he believes that you generally need meditation in addition to
> pranayama. Perhaps this is the reason why you observe these
things
> in Iyengar practicioners? Perhaps insufficient meditation (mantra
> yoga)?
>
> Mantra yoga certainly always got certain juices flowing for me
that
> pranayama could never release by itself.
>
> -David
>
]
1084 From: "Dave Moore" <riptiz@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:47am
Subject: Re: Too much pranayama, not enough meditation? riptiz
Offline
Send Email
Hi,
I practise Kundalini Maha Yoga and find that the meditation is simply
enough and all things remain in balance.Simple,effective and no
complications.Of course as in all things guidance is required when
questions arise.Do you not feel the bitterness etc found in Iyengar
yogis/yoginis is simply cleansing or an imbalance caused by the
practices not being complete?
L&L
dave
1085 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:00am
Subject: Re: Too much pranayama, not enough meditation? jim_and_his_...
Offline
Send Email
Meditation is the missing link in nearly all schools of "yoga" taught in America. You'd be
hard pressed to find a yoga school founder who DOESN'T from time to time mention that
meditation is crucial. But they don't teach it, they don't push it, they leave it out of the
equation. Why? Because the majority of students who show up at yoga class do so for a
physical workout (not that they're "unspiritual" about it necessarily...doing asana does
bring a host of deeper results) and you just can't charge people $15 or $20 and have them
sit still and silent for half the class or more. So the best teachers can do is weakly, meakly
say "um, guys...meditation's really good" as they put on their shoes and leave. (And this is
one reason why AYP is such a dynamite "next step" for asana practitioners.)
And it's not just Iyengar. Nearly all American yoga students are geared up on asana and
underbaked in meditation. Pranayama's another thing...that's something yoga teachers do
tend to insist on (though many students resist). I don't think Iyengar emphasizes
pranayama much more than other systems.But no other style of yoga creates the
hardened, angry, vibe of Iyengar yoga. So it may be that the Iyengar approach to asana
(with keen precision and alignment, and figured out be a guy all parties consider a genius
for his deep understanding of body and energy) is simply more effective than the others at
unblocking the nadis, resulting in students who are particularly well dressed...with
nowhere to go, energetically.
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "obsidian9999" <obsidian9999@y...> wrote:
>
> Guys,
>
> here's a snippet of an email from Yogani which I thought is relevant
> to your discussion:
>
> >>> Traditional kriya yoga comes up short in the meditation
> department. It is their greatest failing, and it really shows in long
> time kriya practitioners who have done a lot of spinal breathing with
> inadequate deep meditation.
>
> He isn't talking about Iyengar per se, but you can see clearly that
> he believes that you generally need meditation in addition to
> pranayama. Perhaps this is the reason why you observe these things
> in Iyengar practicioners? Perhaps insufficient meditation (mantra
> yoga)?
>
> Mantra yoga certainly always got certain juices flowing for me that
> pranayama could never release by itself.
>
> -David
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, victor yj <vic@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "And, fwiw, I'm super against Iyengar's pranayama (and I speak as a
> serious Iyengar yoga
> > stalwart for decades). I still practice asanas in the Iyengar
> style, but I've completely
> > migrated to AYP for pranayama. Most hardcore Iyengar practioners
> get sort of brittle, hard
> > and dry...repressed anger, etc. I'm sure it's the pranayama."
> >
> > Thats a good question, Jim. I don't really know many Iyengar people
> that actually practice pranayama but there does seem to be a very
> pervasive brittleness and suppressed anger. It is very apparent.
> >
> > After practicing Iyengar pranayama for many years I have completely
> switched over to AYP with no regrets. The difference to me is very
> distinct. For one thing the iyengar style emphasises keping the chest
> very lifted and expanded which after many years brought me to a place
> of over expansion of teh front body and also an erroneous sensation
> of the breath moving in front of the spine. When I closely observe
> the spinal breathing and also look at anatomy and where the actual
> spinal nerve is located I see that it is actually behind teh
> vertebral bodies so it is actually in the back body. When I moved my
> awareness of the soinal nerve as well as of the flow of the breath
> through that the sensation was of relief and balance immediately. I
> am not accusing Iyengar of giving false information but that somehow
> I didn't *get* this understanding till I switched to AYP. I also
> since practicing kechari no longer seal teh breath in the throat
> during kumbhaka but keep the throat soft and open as if
> > continuing to inhale. This has greatly releive d pressure in the
> torso and belly and lets the energy connect the head to the rest of
> teh body. I could go on.......
> >
> > Lets see. For me doing pranayama with a static jalandhara and
> kumbhaka does seem to give a brittleness and rigidity whereas letting
> teh head rotate in the chin pump releases that energy and gives it
> somewhere to go. Now if we could just organize a school at some point
> I wonder if there would be interest from students of yoga ready to go
> deeper...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >
http://mail.yahoo.com > >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
1089 From: "Dave Moore" <riptiz@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:35pm
Subject: Re: Too much pranayama, not enough meditation? riptiz
Offline
Send Email
Hi Jim,
In actual fact asanas as well as chi gung in my experience will give
you more dramatic results in the beginning but as you become in a more
pure state eveyone needs meditation to walk the final step.Without
meditation you will never reach enlightenment as it takes you further
than any other practice.I know what you mean about teaching meditation
as I primarily teach meditation but as you say they always want 'more'
or a 'quick fix'which is the way of ones ego isn't it? Even though I
teach the Kundalini Maha Yoga meditations which are more powerful than
most other ways,people still look for more dramatic results and think
that they need visions, voices, colours or whatever as a benchmark to
their progress which as we all know is no indicator at all.
L&L
dave
1092 From: Ram Narayan Gupta <rngupta31@yahoo.co.in>
Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:07pm
Subject: Re: Re: Too much pranayama, not enough meditation? rngupta31
Send IM
Send Email
Dear Shri Dave Moore Ji
In your mail, you memtioned that u r teaching the Kundalini Maha Yoga meditations which are more powerful than most other ways.
Would you kindly elaborate the procedure for learning the Kundalini Maha Yoga meditations is it similiar to AYP or some one else.
With regards,
R N Gupta
Dave Moore <riptiz@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi Jim,
In actual fact asanas as well as chi gung in my experience will give
you more dramatic results in the beginning but as you become in a more
pure state eveyone needs meditation to walk the final step.Without
meditation you will never reach enlightenment as it takes you further
than any other practice.I know what you mean about teaching meditation
as I primarily teach meditation but as you say they always want 'more'
or a 'quick fix'which is the way of ones ego isn't it? Even though I
teach the Kundalini Maha Yoga meditations which are more powerful than
most other ways,people still look for more dramatic results and think
that they need visions, voices, colours or whatever as a benchmark to
their progress which as we all know is no indicator at all.
L&L
dave
For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices --
To change your email delivery to "daily digest," send a blank email to:
AYPforum-digest@yahoogroups.com --
To stop email delivery and use "web viewing only," send a blank email to:
AYPforum-nomail@yahoogroups.com --
To resume "individual email delivery," send a blank email to:
AYPforum-normal@yahoogroups.com
You can also make these changes in "Edit my Membership" on the group home page.
Yahoo! Groups Links
---------------------------------
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your friends n family photos for FREE with Yahoo! Photos.
http://in.photos.yahoo.com[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
1090 From: "Melissa" <mm7810@gmail.com>
Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:02pm
Subject: Re: Too much pranayama, not enough meditation? mm78102002
Offline
Send Email
Hello everybody -
I wanted more information on the "why" of meditation after
pranyama so I emailed Yogani and asked him to elaborate. Below
is his response [I am assuming that he wouldn't mind me posting
it - lol], and I thought others may be interested in reading it
as well.
Toodles,
Melissa
==================================================================
removing rigidness from yoga
Thank you for writing and sharing.
Opening nadis long term without cultivation of inner silence
(meditation) can lead to stray thoughts and emotions taking root
deeper in the nervous system (like weeds), which is where the
rigidness and irritability come from. It can happen with both asanas
and pranayama if taken to exclusive excess. There is mounting
evidence of this, with a few examples popping up the AYP forum.
Interestingly, deep meditation done alone over a long time, while
generally much more stable as a stand-alone than asanas or
pranayama, can also lead to some imbalance. In that case, it can be
inner silence lacking a connection to the inner energies and daily
living. Generally not much irritability and rigidness from this
(though it can happen) -- but occasionally more of a spaced-out
feeling. That is why we do our practice and go out and be active in
the world to stabilize inner silence in our life. That will usually
be enough to promote spiritual growth and keep balance between our
meditation and daily life. Then we add the pranayama, asanas,
mudras, bandhas and tantra to accelerate the effusion of inner
silence throughout our nervous system, and beyond. That adds the
ecstatic conductivity/radiance (kundalini) aspect, which is
essential to move on to unity, which is a joining of inner silence
and ecstasy leading to outpouring of divine love everywhere. That is
when our surroundings become as dear to us as our body and
individuality. Then "Do unto others..." becomes a living reality.
Obviously, being active in the world is essential in this advanced
stage also.
On yoga systems, AYP is a balanced blend of kriya methods (spinal
breathing, and hatha elements), mantra yoga (deep meditation and
samyama), kundalini yoga (kumbhaka, mudras and bandhas), and tantra
(expanding sexual functioning upward). There is overlap between all
of these, but those are the basic system elements involved in AYP.
The conduct aspects (yamas and niyamas) flow out from those. I'd
prefer not to break down the pieces more specifically than that. In
AYP we are trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together, not take him
apart again.
The key to progress in yoga is balance between all the different
methods which work well together. With an open system of practices
it is not that hard to do because the nervous system knows what it
needs (see lesson #149). We just add the appropriate pieces when we
are ready, a la AYP. Where things have tended to go wrong is with
rigid teachings that deny natural inclinations in the practitioners.
Instead of blocking natural inclinations, the additional methods
should be given. But the tradtions don't have all the methods, and
there-in lies the rub.
Any method done alone over a long time will lead to a distortion --
this is the tendency in most traditions. Yoga means union, and that
goes for integrating a full range practices as well. We can see some
benefit in doing any single yoga practice. By drilling down into a
single practice (the "magic bullet") we will eventually run into
problems. Instead, what we should do is spread out across a full
range of practices and then drill down with all of them together in
a unified way. This is how a progressive and balanced transformation
can be managed. I don't know of any tradition that takes such a
flexible practitioner-directed approach. It is prohibited
by virtue of the exclusiveness that exists. As you know, AYP is open
and non-exclusive, and that is what a scientific approach can bring
to yoga. The benefits have been pretty obvious to many by now.
I wish you all success on your chosen spiritual path. Enjoy!
The guru is in you.
Yogani
1091 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:49pm
Subject: Re: Too much pranayama, not enough meditation? jim_and_his_...
Offline
Send Email
Good stuff. Makes sense to me. When I discovered AYP and started a rigorous meditation
regimen (after a few years of VERY avid asana practice), I felt like a scurvy patient gulping
fresh orange juice. It was more than helpful...it felt like I was rectifying a serious
deficiency.
Based on what Yogani says, plus my other thoughts, I guess the reason for the problem of
Iyengar yoga, specifically, is: 1. Iyengar yoga is particularly efficacious at opening the
nadis, because Mr. Iyengar has a genius for understanding them and communicating ways
to effectively open them, 2. Mr. Iyengar insists on "capping" the energy (i.e. many built in
mechanisms to prevent kundalini awakening) so the nadis are "all dressed up with
nowhere to go", and 3. the lack of meditation to balance this all out, with results that
Yogani eloquently explained.
And the upshot is, I guess, that Iyengar yoga and AYP make a heckuva combination,
better together than either separately. One's great for opening nadis, and the other's great
for putting them to use!
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa" <mm7810@g...> wrote:
> Hello everybody -
>
> I wanted more information on the "why" of meditation after
> pranyama so I emailed Yogani and asked him to elaborate. Below
> is his response [I am assuming that he wouldn't mind me posting
> it - lol], and I thought others may be interested in reading it
> as well.
>
> Toodles,
>
> Melissa
>
>
=======================================================
===========
>
> removing rigidness from yoga
>
> Thank you for writing and sharing.
>
> Opening nadis long term without cultivation of inner silence
> (meditation) can lead to stray thoughts and emotions taking root
> deeper in the nervous system (like weeds), which is where the
> rigidness and irritability come from. It can happen with both asanas
> and pranayama if taken to exclusive excess. There is mounting
> evidence of this, with a few examples popping up the AYP forum.
>
> Interestingly, deep meditation done alone over a long time, while
> generally much more stable as a stand-alone than asanas or
> pranayama, can also lead to some imbalance. In that case, it can be
> inner silence lacking a connection to the inner energies and daily
> living. Generally not much irritability and rigidness from this
> (though it can happen) -- but occasionally more of a spaced-out
> feeling. That is why we do our practice and go out and be active in
> the world to stabilize inner silence in our life. That will usually
> be enough to promote spiritual growth and keep balance between our
> meditation and daily life. Then we add the pranayama, asanas,
> mudras, bandhas and tantra to accelerate the effusion of inner
> silence throughout our nervous system, and beyond. That adds the
> ecstatic conductivity/radiance (kundalini) aspect, which is
> essential to move on to unity, which is a joining of inner silence
> and ecstasy leading to outpouring of divine love everywhere. That is
> when our surroundings become as dear to us as our body and
> individuality. Then "Do unto others..." becomes a living reality.
> Obviously, being active in the world is essential in this advanced
> stage also.
>
> On yoga systems, AYP is a balanced blend of kriya methods (spinal
> breathing, and hatha elements), mantra yoga (deep meditation and
> samyama), kundalini yoga (kumbhaka, mudras and bandhas), and tantra
> (expanding sexual functioning upward). There is overlap between all
> of these, but those are the basic system elements involved in AYP.
> The conduct aspects (yamas and niyamas) flow out from those. I'd
> prefer not to break down the pieces more specifically than that. In
> AYP we are trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together, not take him
> apart again.
>
> The key to progress in yoga is balance between all the different
> methods which work well together. With an open system of practices
> it is not that hard to do because the nervous system knows what it
> needs (see lesson #149). We just add the appropriate pieces when we
> are ready, a la AYP. Where things have tended to go wrong is with
> rigid teachings that deny natural inclinations in the practitioners.
> Instead of blocking natural inclinations, the additional methods
> should be given. But the tradtions don't have all the methods, and
> there-in lies the rub.
>
> Any method done alone over a long time will lead to a distortion --
> this is the tendency in most traditions. Yoga means union, and that
> goes for integrating a full range practices as well. We can see some
> benefit in doing any single yoga practice. By drilling down into a
> single practice (the "magic bullet") we will eventually run into
> problems. Instead, what we should do is spread out across a full
> range of practices and then drill down with all of them together in
> a unified way. This is how a progressive and balanced transformation
> can be managed. I don't know of any tradition that takes such a
> flexible practitioner-directed approach. It is prohibited
> by virtue of the exclusiveness that exists. As you know, AYP is open
> and non-exclusive, and that is what a scientific approach can bring
> to yoga. The benefits have been pretty obvious to many by now.
>
> I wish you all success on your chosen spiritual path. Enjoy!
>
> The guru is in you.
>
> Yogani
1094 From: victor yj <vic@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:21pm
Subject: Re: Re: Too much pranayama, not enough meditation? vic
Offline
Send Email
I strongly agree. I remember once asking Ramanad Patel why there was no meditation offered at the Iyengar Institute and he said that Mr Iyengar felt that the students were not ready for it and did not want it taught. When I pressed a bit and said that surely there were students with many years of practice under their belt which *were* ready, Ramamanand replied "yes, but they must find it elsewhere" When i asked for suggestions i did not get any other that he didn't recommend the Zen center very much because he felt that they did not seem very happy to him. I wonder how Ramandand feels or would feel about AYP. I haven't spoken with him for some years so am not really in a position to personally ask at this time.
"Iyengar yoga, specifically, is: 1. Iyengar yoga is particularly efficacious at opening the
nadis, because Mr. Iyengar has a genius for understanding them and communicating ways
to effectively open them, 2. Mr. Iyengar insists on "capping" the energy (i.e. many built in
mechanisms to prevent kundalini awakening) so the nadis are "all dressed up with
nowhere to go", and 3. the lack of meditation to balance this all out, with results that
Yogani eloquently explained.
And the upshot is, I guess, that Iyengar yoga and AYP make a heckuva combination,
better together than either separately. One's great for opening nadis, and the other's great
for putting them to use!"
