painful knees ?

[pala]

I have sore tendons and cartilages on the sides of my knees, especially the inner sides. I may have damaged them when young, by doing extreme asanas without training. Distance running as well.

Are there recommended asanas for healing these joints and tendons? Or any other relevant techniques? Sitting meditation is becoming painful, and the pain is interfering with walking.

[ebby]

Hello Pala,  I just read your plea,  I too suffer from the say thing.  However, I have not the interference when walking.  What I have found out to be a great remedy to the painful knee syndrome is that is when sitting in crossed leg position is to do this sitting in bed.  You can sit for a rather long time and not suffer with painful knee.  I hope this will help you.  Bye for now.  Om Shanti

Ebony-Khadija Davis

[pala]

Thanks for the input Ebby. I have tried to meditate sitting up on my bed, leaning back on pillows, and the knees don't hurt too much to sit this way. But after sitting, the knees hurt more, and walking becomes difficult. I also must labor, and the sore knees are further damaged by ladder work, heavy lifting etc., as well as by walking exercise. So now I bicycle, which helps some with healing. But if I can't find some healing postures or exercises, I may have to give up siddasana, and my practice will cease.

[yogani]

Hello Pala:

See this recent Q&A from my email:

Q: I read your article on siddhasana: http://www.aypsite.com/plus/75.html
I have knee problem due to torn ligament in my right. I cannot bring this leg under. So can I tuck in my left leg instead of my right? Will it effect the efficiency of this posture?

A: Either heel at the perineum will do. If the injured leg won't bend comfortably, it is okay to leave it out straight. With back support it is easy to do this -- one leg under and the other leg straight out. If neither leg will go under, then it is okay to use an object like a rolled up sock at the perineum. In this case you may have both legs out straight. It can be done either on the bed or in a comfortable chair. The key in siddhasana is stimulation at the perineum. The rest can vary according to need.

******************

I would add to this a reminder on the basic maxim in all yoga -- Never force beyond your comfortable limit. This applies to postures, and to all other practices as well. This is the essence of self-pacing.

All the best!

The guru is in you.

[Anthem]

Hi Pala,

I was also having trouble for a little while with my knees becoming irritated from sitting too long during practices which was also starting to make running or bending my knee(s) painful after practices as well.

Two issues were at the root of solving this for me. First, when the quad muscles are really tight they pull on supporting tendon and (indirectly) ligament structures around the knees. Regular stretching of the quadriceps muscles can greatly relieve pressure on the knee. This stretching might not initially seem to have any impact but over the course of a few days, weeks etc. you can experience great relief. It is my experience that a lot of yoga asana classes have a disproportionate focus on hamstring related stretches. Stretching your quads can also take a lot of pressure and strain away from your lower back.

Secondly, numerous studies have shown that quad strengthening exercises are more effective for knee pain and knee injury than surgery. Therefore climbing stairs or hills or riding a bike can be great exercises to help strengthen the knees. A simple resistance routine of lunges and squats with light and eventually moderate weights, can also greatly strengthen these muscles. Whatever you choose, start slowly and increase the intensity of this type of training gradually over time.

It is very important to note that if you choose the strengthening route, that you stretch the quad muscles after these exercises. Muscles will definitely get tighter and shorten from using them especially in the initial stages.

The combination of stretching and strengthening the quads was the solution that worked wonders for me. Anytime I feel strain on the knee during practices, I go back to this remedy.

[riptiz]

Hi,
If you can manage to kneel down try sitting on the feet for a few minutes daily.This stretches the knees allowing increased blood flow.If you try this when your knees are stiff you should feel relief fairly quickly. be careful when standing up in case your legs have 'gone to sleep.'
L&L
dave

'the mind can see further than the eyes'

[Etherfish]

I don't know if anyone is reading this thread, but this seemed the best place for this.

I did a zen sitting at a dojo in Seattle over the holidays. They sit mostly in a position where the knees are lower than the butt. They said it is hard on your knees to sit cross legged and flat. They use "Zafu and Zabuton" cushions. (do a search on ebay) The Zabuton is a big flat square one, and Zafu is put on top, a round firm one.
 
They sit on the top Zafu, and the legs are loosely cross-legged, but going down to the lower Zabuton cushion, and any space under the knees is cushioned with another little pillow if they don't both rest on the bottom zabuton. Some of them sit in a modified kneel with a special stool that takes the weight off the knees. i guess the idea is the knees should be lower, and no weight on them in either case. Of course we would have to figure out how to get the heel back in there, but this may be a good starting point for those with knee problems. Also it puts the back in proper alignment which should be straight, but with a natural curve at the lower back.

Zafus are filled with kapok, cotton, wool, or buckwheat for adjustment. I'm trying wool because Yogananda says it blocks earth energies that interfere with meditation.

Etherfish

[Jim and His Karma]

all standing poses fix knees...IF they're done with care and very good alignment (the Iyengar system is very precise with alignment).

[sadhak]

quote:Originally posted by pala

I have sore tendons and cartilages on the sides of my knees, especially the inner sides. I may have damaged them when young, by doing extreme asanas without training. Distance running as well.

Are there recommended asanas for healing these joints and tendons?

Hi Pala,
I had an accident (3-4 years back)in which I hurt my knees quite significantly. Plus an x ray then showed osteo-arthritic deformation beggining in one. It used to be quite painful to walk much, sit in siddhasana, or take stairs. Now I can do all three with absolutely no pain in the knees.

What helped was sitting in vajrasana for long periods (10 mins a day minimum), and then adding supta vajrasana to my asana regime. Remember to breathe in gentle ujjayi and keep your awareness on the knees while doing these two. If you don't have a dependable source to learn the two from, let me know, and I'll include a detailed description here. Be careful about the supta vajrasana, and always attempt it, when you're ready for it, after rotations to warm up.

[Sparkle]

Hi Sadhak

I would appreciate some information on the asanas you recommend. I have what sounds like a similar knee problem to pala.

Cheers
Louis

[sadhak]

Hi Sparkle

Vajra Asana: Kneel, and sit on the legs (much like how Muslims sit for namaz), so that your seat is cradled by the feet. Cross the big toes of your feet, with one on top of the other. Keep your spine erect, pulling it up from the small of your back, and letting the shoulders relax. Breathe gently in ujjai, with the awareness on your spine. Hold this posture for as long as you can comfortably, increasing the time held gradually. Do this and all asanas on a rug on the floor. Vajra asana is the only one that can be practised right after meals, as it aids digestion.

When you come out of the posture, do so very gently. There should be no sudden movements or jerks during asanas. Let the circulation come back into the legs if you've been sitting long before attempting to stand.

Let me know if you face any difficulty, or something is not clear. Do you do any asanas otherwise?

Let's talk about supta vajra asana once you are totally comfortable in vajra asana for a month.

[Sparkle]

Hi Sadhak

Actually it is this Vajra Asana that gives me problems, although I would not cross my toes.
When meditating I would normally use a meditation stool. Even using this, where the bum is raised a little, it aggrivates my knee.

It is probably a little more complex because the knee problem probably comes from a low back problem.

I stretch the back using - down dog, child pose, spinal twist (apologies for the incorrect terms). Doing these each moring keeps my back in shape.

Something I used to do with any routine was knee rotations and I have forgotton about this. I must start this again and see if it helps.

I do not want to force anything and feel that doing Vajra for any lenght of time might make things worse, but I could be wrong about this.

What do your think ?

Louis

[sadhak]

quote:Originally posted by Sparkle

Hi Sadhak
Actually it is this Vajra Asana that gives me problems, although I would not cross my toes.
When meditating I would normally use a meditation stool. Even using this, where the bum is raised a little, it aggrivates my knee.
Louis

Hi Louis,
If you're not doing it on a very hard surface, are doing the posture right, and breathing right, Vajra asana is highly recommended for both knees and lower back. It is the very first one that anyone begins with, especially for these problems. Since I'm unable to see what you're doing, do check this link http:// http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/download/kundalini.htm#_VPID_92 (though I am sure you must've either referred to some dependable book, or person in learning this).

I am not familiar with a meditation stool, so I can't really picture what you're doing when using it. But I reckon it is a very low stool on which you sit and cross your legs loosely in front in sukhasana.

If you were beginning with rotations, nothing could be better. That's the ticket. We do the neck, shoulder, wrists, hips, knees and ankles, followed by the full stretch (tadasana). All these are synchronised with half cirlce breathe in, half circle breathe out, super slow, and with awareness on the joint being rotated. Begin with three rounds clockwise and anticlockwise.

The thumb rule is to stop if there is any pain. But I've noticed that people stop even if there is some tolerable discomfirt or mild pain that comes from stretching muscles.

The beginning asanas for the spine, lower back, are vajrasana, tadasana, sarpasana, bhujang and later, dhanur asana. But it is, in my experience, better to do these under supervision, because it is easy to miss out on individual differences otherwise.

However, since you already seem to be practising them, you must've already had an instructor. If you're already doing the spinal twist (ardh matsyendra, for our mutual ref. so we know we're talking about the same thing), which is an advanced spine asana, I'm surprised that you still have a low back problem, and that you find it difficult to sit in vajra. I'd say, go back to the basics, and strengthen your low back and knees first.

Shavasana, child's pose, are all OK to relax. Afraid I don't know which is the dog one.

Making any headway?

[Lili]

quote:Originally posted by sadhak

http:// http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/download/kundalini.htm#_VPID_92

Interesting book thx for the link. Some parts are really scary though: it says many times that if you dont have a guru you are in big trouble and it is quite negative about people with any kind of worldly goals or links.

[Jim and His Karma]

That lineage is all about gurus....that's the basis upon which it's build. Within their reality, that's how it has to be.