Herniated Disks and Shoulder Stand / Plow

[Ankchy]

Hi everyone,

My name is Ankchy and this is my first post to these wonderful content rich AYP Support Forums.

I got my anonymous invitation to AYP way back in 2004 (thank you so much, Yogani) and have been practicing twice daily with some interruptions since then.

My current routine consists of asanas according to the Asana Starter Kit described in the AYP book, Pranayama, Meditation with the first version of the mantra, Samyama and Kechari stage one, when it feels appropriate.

Very satisfying results so far. What I like most is that I have changed in ways I could not have imagined before AYP. I just didn’t have any idea, what it would be like to feel lighter, purer, more light-filled etc. before AYP. My connectedness to other people has improved likewise and there are times when beautiful, refreshing love just pours out through me… it feels sooo good

My problem with the asanas concerns positions five and six of the asana starter kit (shoulder stand and plow). I like the instantaneous effect of the inversions and the stretch of the spine but within a few hours after practice time (sometimes even faster) I get into trouble, getting a headache, a dizzy feeling, the impression that my head has grown way too big etc.

I know these symptoms all to well; they are basically caused by two herniated disks in my cervical spine. This happened 10 years ago in 1997. When I leave shoulder stand and plow out of my routine there are no negative side effects.

I already tried putting a folded blanket under my neck as it was discussed in the corresponding yahoo group archive thread but to no avail.

Does anybody know how to reap the benefits of inversion and curling the spine backwards without putting undue stress on herniated discs? I also love the flow and shortness of Yogani´s asana program (and the entire AYP program), so two neck friendly modifications of the original versions would be optimum for me.

Does anybody have any experience with this?

Thanks a lot for reading and answering in advance…

With love

Ankchy
 

[Kyman]

In my personal experience, the only way to get around the pain is to transmute it with bhakti.  After doing pain management under a doctor for years, and seriously working on rehab, I find that works best.

I've experienced a lot of numbness and other sensations before I started rehab due to ecstatic conductivity, when the strange feelings and painful sensations came up they were much easier to process, and soon control.  

By doing a spinal rebirth, my body lead itself through its own entanglement of chaos.  I had to do deep meditation for a couple years just to prepare my core strength.  There is a great momentum behind my intentions to radically heal my physical body.  

If your neck is weak, then it has displaced the other regions around it.  Yoga will approach all of the regions in the right way with the proper pace, which only the individual can know.  Just always respect what you currently have or what you feel your current state is, and enjoy it.  

Maybe self improvement should feel like stretching first thing in the morning.  Real nice.  We just extend ourselves a little bit more than we are accustomed.  Pretty soon the body is transforming so smoothly and steadily, you feel like every other week you are waking up with a different body.  

[Ankchy]

Hi Kyman,

Thank you for your kind reply.

Your suggestion to “transmute pain with bhakti” made me look at the current state of my cervical spine from a different angle.

About six month after the herniated disks had occurred I went to an osteopath who was able to remove a lot of the physical tension, the pain and the distortions in other parts of my body brought about by those two broken disks in my cervical spine.

To my wonderment he also removed the fear and overwhelm stored in the tissue of my neck, shoulders and upper back. This was quite an experience for me at that time. After eight sessions I was able to do the Five Tibetans Rite again, which I had been practicing before the rupture of those disks.

I think I will resume the energy approach that osteopath used seven years ago. This time I will do it on my own, using EFT. I will leave shoulderstand and plow out of my asana practice for some time until it feels right to test their effects again. So my twice daily routine will start with EFT for the emotions and physical happenings in my cervical spine followed by asanas etc. Maybe some additional EFT added during the day if it feels right.

Hey, I think you made me aware of the mental trap made of “looking at seemingly physical things in a physical way only”. Thank you.

Nevertheless, if anybody is aware of a kind of “shoulderstand” or “plow light” I could do in the meantime; any suggestions would be very much appreciated.

Cordially

Ankchy

[yogibear]

Hi Anchny,

Sorry to hear about your injury.  Unfortunately, this type of thing cannot be cured, only managed.

I am curious what the osteopath did.  Did he crack your neck or do something else?  I am a chiropractor.

A version of the plow can be done where you rest your knees on your forehead, supporting your lower back with your hands, and do nothing else.  You can let your toes touch the floor behind your head if it is comfortable. You don't get quite the stretch in your back side as you do when you can straighten your legs but then again, that is why you don't get the strain on your neck.

You can also four fold a blanket and let your head and neck lay past the edge of this. The base of your neck will rest on the edge of your blanket. When you do the two postures in question, there will be less tension in your neck because the angle of your neck in relation to the rest of the spine is is not as acute. This will allow you to assume the normal position with the rest of your body with less strain.

As always you have to stay within your comfortable capacity when practicing postures which you are trying to do.

Hope that helps.

Best, yb.

[Victor]

There are two postures that are "shoulderstand lite". They are Setu Bandha Sarvangasana (bridge pose) http://starbulletin.com/2006/08/13/features/artyoga.jpg and Viparita Karani http://elsieyogakula.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/viparita-karani-supportive.jpg  Both give a gentle stretch to the neck as in shoulderstand but without all the pressure. Considering your injury I would stick to poses like that rather than risk further injury in Shoulderstand and Plough unless under the supervision of a senior yoga teacher

[yogibear]

Hi Ankchy,

If your neck is very bad, you may have to go back to your osteopath or a chiropractor.  Maybe you have financial concerns that prevent it. You might only be able to do the poses Victor suggested. You won't get much inversion effect from them but you will get some. Maybe it is just what you need. You be the judge.  

The first pose I mention is a personal favorite of mine as there is hardly any stress on the neck and you still get the inversion effect altho not as good as with shoulderstand. It is in fact, viparita karani light as the only difference is that the knees are resting easily on your forehead. (the picture of the pose in Yogani's asana book is one version of viparita karani; another is with the legs hanging over head at a 45 degree angle). The hips are not directly over head so there is not so much stress on the neck. I use it prior to plow and shoulderstand and stay in it until my body feels ready for more. But you can just stay in it and go no further.

You know, you can feel your body wanting that stretch you get in the plow and that pressure in your head and neck you get from both plow and especially shoulderstand. You just can't get it any other way. It feels great after a long day at work. Well, sometimes you just have to sit on the side lines.

I had a bad car accident back in '91. So I have to pay attention to my neck like you and be careful not to over do. But I can still do plow and shoulderstand. Sometimes I have to back off a little. If I have a problem with neck pain, I get my spine adjusted and things are fine again. It is permanent injury.  Can't be fixed but can be managed.

I have many people who come to me regularly for chiropractic care, like going to the dentist to get there teeth cleaned. Chronic joint symptoms are rampant in our society and chiropractic is often the best answer, especially if combined with some type of self help like yoga postures. It greatly improves the quality of life for them. So you might want to consider using that combination.  You responded very well to what the osteopath did. So no reason it won't happen again.

Keep in mind that about half the people who are middle aged are walking around with herniated discs and have no pain from them.  How do we know this? Because so many times a person would have an MRI for some other health concern and there would be a herniated disc or two present.  They would ask the person if they were having any pain and the person would say no I am feeling fine.

So you may have some herniated discs but it could be some other part of your spine, like a facet joint, that is the symptom generator.  Could be the discs, too.  No matter. It is what happens in real life and what your body responds positively to that matters free of the limitations of some rigid model or belief system.

We chiropractors say there are 3 causes of subluxations (stuck bones) in the spine. The first is physical stress. That can be from a big injury or many small ones. The second is mental stress. The third is chemical stress.

Two things I think help immensely in this regard.  

First, I think that an advanced meditator can have a great impact on their experience of physical pain and spinal function, even tho they may have some significant degenerative arthritis (joint inflammation), because there is far less emotional stress radiating thru their nerves into their muscles which then pull on the spinal bones and create spinal stress and tension.  

The second is an anti inflammatory diet that minimizes inflammatory chemicals in your body that egg on any inflammation that is already present caused from physical stressors (it is physical injury that causes degenerative arthritis which is what chiropractors treat).

Maybe that will give you some more perspective on what you are dealing with. At least some food for thought.

The bottom line is use your common sense and stay within your comfortable capacity.  Experiment. Find out what works. If it hurts, don't do it. Simple. Sounds like you are doing it.

BTW, welcome to the forum.

Best, yb.

[Ankchy]

Hi yogibear and Victor,

Thank you both for your kind replies.

@ yogibear:  Even now, 10 years after the injury I get s.th. like cold shivers when I imagine s.o. “cracking my neck”. Maybe that’s just a prejudice but that’s how I feel…

Having those two disk ruptures simultaneously occur was quite a traumatic event for me. Swallowing had become difficult, a lot of constriction in my neck which isn’t very wide anyway. And lots of fear. This appeared out of the blue for me and I had never felt more vulnerable in all my life. I hadn’t been very much aware of my spinal cord before (years before AYP) and now suddenly there were thoughts about paraplegia and lots of nasty symptoms, all that stuff that is typical for herniated disks.

As I hadn’t been aware of any indications of what was going to happen I asked myself what was going to happen next without any advance notice.

Time and the wonderful capacity of my body to heal were the first two wonderful healers I met. My body replaced the ruptured disks partially by cartilage, things started to feel better, physical symptoms got weaker.

I tried conventional physiotherapy which wasn’t helpful. Way too gross for me. I couldn’t tolerate s.o. pulling at my neck and doing other more or less mechanical, schematic things.

Then I met that osteopath. He didn’t follow any fixed program but allowed my body to talk to him. Very, very soft touches and movement borne out of the moment, lots of energy transmissions, sometimes with a very sexy feeling, a bit of cranio sacral therapy, lots of unwinding and other stuff I don’t know any  name for. Very helpful and very surprising for my. Very soft and very powerful.

Hope this description makes any sense for you from a professional point of view.

Today I tried your version of the plow with my knees on my forehead. I could do it effortless and without any trouble afterwards. Great. I could even place my feet on the floor behind my head with legs bent without any pain.

Tomorrow I will try the shoulderstand with the four folded blanket under my body.
I am curious how that goes… when I tried a blanket in the past I didn’t use it in the way you described it, maybe there will be a difference. I will let you know anyway.

@ Victor: Thank you so much for those informative pictures. I will try the pose from the elsieyogakula page as soon as I have integrated yogibears suggestions. Really lots of help here…

@ yogibear: I just saw your second post in this thread appearing on the board. Great advice once again. You know it’s almost half past ten p.m. here in Berlin and I just came home from a wonderful evening filled with sailing on our beautiful lakes and a barbecue afterwards. I mention this as an example of feeling “quite vital, happy and free”. Almost all of the time I don’t feel restricted by my body at all - it is rather working with me and for me instead of against me. So I could relate to your example of those people with the unnoticed herniated disks in a way. For me it is very true, that this is a condition that can be managed and I will do so using your advice.


Lovingly

Ankchy

PS: I already experimented with reducing inflammatory food - found it to be very helpful, though requiring a bit of discipline… today’s BBQ… aehm… was an exception, of course…

[Ankchy]

After gving the blanket solution a repeated try I can say that it seems to work quite well for me. Nevertheless I have to be careful not to go to the limits of the movement in shoulderstand and plow. With about 3/4 of the possible radius I get good results without any pain afterwards. Thank you for help