Actions as the measure for spiritual progress

[Sparkle]

We all have rules and guidlines for conduct whether we like it or not. We live in a world of boundries and people and dangerous things. Our whole life in the world of duality is a matrix of rules and guidlines, often so automatic we don't think of them as such.

We can talk about looking at things from the perspective of non-duality and discard everything, but unless we also include duality we are only fooling ourselves, in my opinion.

In Buddhism they talk of the Two Truths. These are the truth of the relative or historical dimension and the truth of the ultimate or absolute - basically duality and non-duality. It is when the two are embraced and experienced together and integrated that a person can be balanced.

Rules and guidlines for conduct are clearly within the realm of duality and have nothing to do with non-duality. If we discuss rules from a perspective of non-duality we are missing the point.
It's about the practical application of spirituality within the boundries of time space, and I think that is what you are referring to Andrew.

As Yogani often says, without inner silence these things have limited effect and the development of inner silence through deep meditation etc. will provide the balance between the Two Truths.

So I would propose that a set of guidlines which are used in conjunction with inner silence becomes samyama and might accelerate ones navigation through the complex maize of the boundries of duality.

Just a suggestion[]

Rule 1 - there are no rules
Rule 2 - when you decide to put your hand in the fire, you make a rule
Don't put my hand in the fire.
Rule 3 - Wear clothes in public, or you will get put in prison.
Rule 4 - Don't chop your head off, because it will make a mess on the carpet.
Rule 5 - Treat others like you would like to be treated yourself, because if you do you will be happier.
Rule 6 - Don't think badly of anyone because this is like bashing yourself over the head with a hammer.
etc etc.

[yogani]

quote:Originally posted by Anthem11

I am suggesting that the roots of the action that people take (verbal, physical) are a more accurate and more meaningful measures of a person's inner condition and spiritual progress. If there are still actions based in ignorance which are reactions to emotions such as anger, jealousy, hatred, greed, fear, etc., then there is still work to be done despite levels of ecstasy, bliss or understanding of the unity of all things. Action born from love, compassion and understanding being the other end of the spectrum and only the one acting can know if their actions truly stem from these sources even if they appear otherwise from the outside.

Yoga holds inner energy development, ecstasy, bliss and unity consciousness as sign-posts and no doubt there are strong correlations to overall inner condition but these can be very misleading when certain practices accelerate certain experiences. I think we have seen this often and from the experiencer's perspective they can be misleading too, how much, how often etc., I must be enlightened, I had bliss, I saw the unity of it all etc. From my perspective it appears to me the root of action doesn't lie and is a more accurate measure.

Of course all of the measures rely on self-truth but yoga practitioners would be better served in many ways from my perspective focusing on the degree to which they act in the world from a place of love, understanding and true service.

Hi Anthem:

No disagreement there. However, as you point out, this kind of measurement is ultimately internal. While our external behavior may seem to be improving, the real dynamic is occurring inside. Perhaps, in time, science will develop objective ways for measuring this.  

Meanwhile, the further we go in cultivating inner silence and ecstatic conductivity/radiance, the more acute our awareness of evolutionary and non-evolutionary action becomes, and our actions are affected accordingly. When our actions are in disharmony, we will feel the pain of it to the end of the earth. And when our actions are in harmony, we will feel the joy far out into the cosmic regions. So our choices become relatively easy, and codes of conduct may become somewhat incidental, but not necessarily to be ignored.

Because of the internal dynamics, it is difficult to measure external acts as being evolutionary or non-evolutionary. Nevertheless, there must be some measurement by someone to limit the ignorant abuses that happen in this world. That is what the law is for.  

As for the internal fireworks and other experiences associated with the purification and opening of spiritual development, we have been calling these things "scenery" for a long time around here, haven't we? We acknowledge such experiences, and enjoy them if they come, but...

Spiritual development is about improving the quality of everyday living. Those who think it is a thrill ride will get over it eventually. The more effective the system of practices we are using, the sooner we will get over the thrill ride aspect of it, which is not a prerequisite for enlightenment. Going off on tangents tends to delay the process, as many here know.

We will know we are making progress as we become less concerned about our own spiritual condition, and more concerned about helping others. That's the bottom line.

The guru is in you.

[Sparkle]

The Four Agreements
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=466#466
1. BE IMPECCABLE WITH YOUR WORD - Speak with integrity. Say what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.

2. DON'T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONALLY - Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.

3. DON'T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS - Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness, and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

4. ALWAYS DO YOUR BEST - Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgement, self-abuse, and regret.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I guess I have a problem with the second of these agreements
2. DON'T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONALLY - Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.

Maybe this is one of the core issues in this discussion.
And whilst it is completely true in one sense, it is very untrue in another, in my view.
It also shows the danger in making rules or agreements or whatever you want to call them. It implies we can do anything we want and accept no personal responsability for the outcome with others. For me that flies in the face of what I understand as compassion.

It's only saving grace is that when bundled along with the other agreements, so that the four of them are taken into consideration as a unit, it doesn't look so bad.

I know I'm out on a limb here from the status quo, but so be it

[Anthem]

Hi Louis,

I'm not too worried about establishing codes of conduct. I do love the 4 Agreements by Ruiz and I think the Noble 8 Fold Path and yoga's yamas and niyamas probably cover most of what is needed. I prefer to see improving conduct spring from stillness.

The primary points I am trying to make are that for those of us on the spiritual path, we would be better served by using the amount or the frequency in which our actions in the world are initiated from a source of unconditional love, compassion and understanding and manifest in a form of service rather than from a source of ignorance manifesting as reactions to anger, hate, greed, fear, jealousy, sadness, lust etc. Our emotions don't lie, we feel the way we feel and I love how Yogani puts it above:
 

quote:When our actions are in disharmony, we will feel the pain of it to the end of the earth. And when our actions are in harmony, we will feel the joy far out into the cosmic regions. So our choices become relatively easy,

I have certainly noticed this dynamic evolving internally in this direction and it would make a an excellent milestone if we are going to use them.

I regard these as better measures of our internal spiritual condition than some of the enlightenment symptoms traditionally used in yoga culture which can be very misleading for some of the reasons I cited above. In general I see it as being far more meaningful and beneficial for spiritual practitioners to focus on improving their conduct and actions in the world than on achieving said enlightenment milestones for themselves. One is a selfish pursuit, that only serves to perpetuate the "I" the other is giving it all away and benefits the whole.
 
I think yoga could take a page out of traditional Buddhism here and I think AYP is way ahead of the curve in this regard too. We are practice oriented here and scenery that comes up as Yogani mentions above, is seen as just that and then we go back and practice. Having enlightenment milestones on the horizon, and/ or any siddhis can actually cause blocks for practitioners as they wonder why their internal reality doesn't match their expectations derived from what they have heard from others or read about. Enlightenment milestones reported in some practitioners and not experienced by others can be discouraging for people on the path or create jealousy etc. By focusing on our  own conduct and our actions in the world as the important part of the equation, we are doing ourselves a lot more good and not to mention the world around us. It becomes less about what "I" is achieving and more about what we can do for others and make our small part of the world (meaning for everyone we interact with) a more enjoyable place to be.

Here at AYP, so far we have milestones for silence, ecstasy, bliss, unity consciousness, out-pouring divine love (this one does definitely cover action) and in the self-inquiry book there are some for the evolution of the mind. I think only a small percentage of spiritual seekers can relate to many of these. I would love to see some for the evolution of behavior, emotion and actions in the world that lead up to the outpouring of divine love. I think these touch every one of us. We do talk about them often, how emotional turmoil becomes shorter and shorter, how our personal relationships improve, overall increasing happiness, increased service to others, more unconditional love and understanding etc. As we improve ourselves in these areas the world becomes a better place and it is a more selfless pursuit.

[yogani]

Hi Anthem and All:

It is important to acknowledge all experiences that may come up along the path, so there can be understanding of them, and so they can be used to fuel bhakti for daily practice. All experiences are valid for the person who is having them. If we are not feeling inclined to go out and serve humanity, it is not a shortcoming. Whatever experiences we are having today will suffice to help us stay motivated on our path. The flashy experiences of purification and opening are as valid as any other. We can acknowledge them, enjoy them, and move on.  

Along the way on the path of daily practices, a gradual shift occurs from small self (me) to big Self (we), and our motivations in action naturally shift to a service mode. The indicators for this latter stage are covered in the AYP Bhakti and Karma Yoga book.

The thing is, every stage has its own signature, its own milestones, its own validity, and it is not appropriate to measure one stage with another stage's milestones. This is the same issue we run into when "enlightened" teachers tell us that we should be seeing the world as non-dual now rather than later. If the milestones are not geared to the experience of the practitioner, then the teaching will be lacking in that time and place, creating expectations that are not reasonable or practical. We should be careful about this.

So, I don't think we can come up with a single set of criteria that can be applied to all practitioners. One size does not fit all. Broadly speaking, there is the inner silence stage, the ecstatic conductivity stage, and the unity stage. Each has it own characteristics. Shades of all three stages may be occurring at the same time to one degree or other. So, as we move along on our path, we may be noticing the presence of inner silence (witness), having waves of ecstasy or other energy events, and wanting to serve others, all at the same time. This mixture can be a normal experience for us as we move along on the path of practices. One part of the experience is not superior to another part. Any or all of these characteristics can be acknowledged as progress. The feedback is very useful for sustaining our motivation to go on with practices.  

This is a very interesting topic, and an opportunity to clear up misunderstandings about what the enlightenment process is. It is a continuum, with many characteristics that we may experience along the way. Or we may not experience much that is dramatic, and only find life gradually getting better in ordinary ways. This too is rising enlightenment. All experiences we have are milestones, but not conditions to be clung to by us or anyone else. There is always a next stage, and we will be wise to continue beyond the inner adventures of the moment.

Hanging on will hold us back. Moving on is living in the now. That is why we always favor the practice over the experience.

The guru is in you.

[Anthem]

quote:Originally posted by yogani

Hi Anthem and All:

It is important to acknowledge all experiences that may come up along the path, so there can be understanding of them, and so they can be used to fuel bhakti for daily practice. All experiences are valid for the person who is having them. If we are not feeling inclined to go out and serve humanity, it is not a shortcoming. Whatever experiences we are having today will suffice to help us stay motivated on our path. The flashy experiences of purification and opening are as valid as any other. We can acknowledge them, enjoy them, and move on.  

Agreed, good points. Nothing wrong with our own scenery being motivation though progress can be slowed for practitioners and sometimes for long periods of time if "I" identifies with said experiences, so the moving on part of the equation is very important. Trouble can start for seekers also when they begin looking to scenery that others have and measuring their own experience with creating expectations for the future and/ or feeling short-comings in their experiences to date.  

 

quote:The thing is, every stage has its own signature, its own milestones, its own validity, and it is not appropriate to measure one stage with another stage's milestones. This is the same issue we run into when "enlightened" teachers tell us that we should be seeing the world as non-dual now rather than later. If the milestones are not geared to the experience of the practitioner, then the teaching will be lacking in that time and place, creating expectations that are not reasonable or practical. We should be careful about this.

Good points, I think milestones in behavior and actions with the rise of inner-silence would cover the continuum of enlightenment pretty effectively. From the gradual distancing between thoughts, emotional reactions and action, to the gradual increase in equanimity, decrease in subtle violence, to the gradual shift in action from self-serving to win-win, to service to others. From the gradual shift from abundant and long lasting experiences of anger, hate, greed, fear, jealousy, sadness, lust etc. to decreasing time spent in each and increasing periods of equanimity between each, to the gradual increase of unconditional love until it is outpouring everywhere in daily action.

 

quote:So, I don't think we can come up with a single set of criteria that can be applied to all practitioners. One size does not fit all. Broadly speaking, there is the inner silence stage, the ecstatic conductivity stage, and the unity stage. Each has it own characteristics. Shades of all three stages may be occurring at the same time to one degree or other. So, as we move along on our path, we may be noticing the presence of inner silence (witness), having waves of ecstasy or other energy events, and wanting to serve others, all at the same time. This mixture can be a normal experience for us as we move along on the path of practices. One part of the experience is not superior to another part. Any or all of these characteristics can be acknowledged as progress. The feedback is very useful for sustaining our motivation to go on with practices.  

Good points. I don't know the answer, I just see that a habit of looking at our own actions, how we are getting along with others, how our morals and ethics are evolving or improving, the increasing love in our daily lives would be pretty hands-on experiences for all practitioners at all stages of the journey and also prior to the time when energy experiences start and silence is still an ambiguous concept.

 

quote: Or we may not experience much that is dramatic, and only find life gradually getting better in ordinary ways. This too is rising enlightenment.

This is the crux of my reason for posting this. From my perspective, I see the "ordinary ways" that things are improving to be a better place to focus measuring progress that would touch the broadest spectrum of practitioners. From my perspective, the traditional milestones in yogic culture are misleading when applied to ourselves and others and discouraging for those who will never experience things like ecstasy, bliss, unity consciousness etc., i.e. "why continue, nothing is happening".

 

quote:All experiences we have are milestones, but not conditions to be clung to by us or anyone else. There is always a next stage, and we will be wise to continue beyond the inner adventures of the moment. Hanging on will hold us back. Moving on is living in the now. That is why we always favor the practice over the experience.

Wise words.

[emc]

- Bah, humbug! No sign of enlightenment here if that is a milestone!

/emcenezer Scrooge who enjoyed the following:

quote:If we are not feeling inclined to go out and serve humanity, it is not a shortcoming.

[yogani]

Hi Anthem:

There is much to be said for the "life improving in ordinary ways" approach for assessing our spiritual progress. All things being equal, it is a good way to view our path, with the least distraction.

However, when inner experiences (symptoms) occur involving the rise of inner silence (witness), or dramatic energy events (ecstatic or not, sometimes physical), then practitioners will ask about these. I don't think it is an effective approach to push them off, as many traditions do. This does not resolve whatever concerns a practitioner may have. As long as there are unresolved concerns, then there will tend to be a focus on the experience. That is a distraction, and can reduce motivation to practice.  

This is also tied in with self-pacing in practices. If we understand the general nature of the excesses in purification that can occur within us, and know how to regulate our practices to mitigate such excesses, then maximum progress on our path can be sustained in a balanced way over the long term. We can acknowledge experiences for what they are, and then favor our practice over them, including self-pacing as needed.

So there are several  reasons why we would like to have an understanding about anything that might happen, and that is a difference between AYP and other approaches.

If we can understand the process of human spiritual transformation as a whole, it can help us to be less fixated on the various experiences we may encounter along the way. That goes for service (karma yoga) also, which is largely an effect of abiding inner silence and its movement outward through us into the environment.

The guru is in you.

[david_obsidian]

Interesting thread.

Andrew said:
It was an act of love for Clint Eastwood to [SPOILER REMOVED] but from other eyes it may not have appeared that way.

Aaaaah! Andrew, I was looking forward to watching that movie and what you have written has spoiled it for me pretty badly.  Are you aware of the concept of movie spoilers and why not to write them on online forums without a warning?

From my perspective, the traditional milestones in yogic culture are misleading when applied to ourselves and others and discouraging for those who will never experience things like ecstasy, bliss, unity consciousness etc., i.e. "why continue, nothing is happening".

I'm inclined to agree.  There are people who experience any given Yogic milestone and who are still in bad levels of behavior at some level.  Maybe most of them?

Is it time to go back to the drawing-board about what enlightenment is?

At some level,  there is some sort of status-hierarchy/achievement-hierarchy/admiration-hierarchy operating in the minds of people here with 'enlightenment' on the top of the ladder.

At the social level,  and the cultural-guidance level, it's probably a bad idea to create a admiration-hierarchy based on 'enlightenment' for the problems you mention.  I've often talked about this problem before.  Really, a jerk is not a big deal -- a jerk who is believed to be a perfect saint or a great wise one is a big deal to those who get close and BELIEVE.

Given that it is not good to create an overly-strong admiration-hierarchy based on yogic enlightenment,  the question arises whether we should live with any admiration-hierarchy at all?  But for most of us, it's almost inevitable that we have an admiration-hierarchy because we strive for something,  so those we admire will be on some sort of 'hierarchy' in our minds.

Is enlightenment too big a thing in our minds?  Do we have undue expectations of it?  Are the 'enlightened' therefore in an overly-strong admiration-hierarchy in our minds?

Maybe it's just better to put people who behave well at the top of the biggest and most important admiration-hierarchy we operate with. It's as simple as that.  Our admiration for the 'enlightened' should perhaps parallel our admiration for, say, a great diver or dancer or musician.  It should come down a notch.

Yogic 'enlightenment' seems to be something other than what the traditions tell us it is.  It has some connection with behaving well, but I can't see much evidence that the connection is that strong or powerful.

Are you Yogis all ready to put up with that right-sizing of your admiration for the 'enlightened'?  With Yogic Enlightenment not being considered to be the culmination of human existence?  Are y'all ready to have your own Yogic achievement brought down a notch or two?

[CarsonZi]

I agree with you David/Andrew....I think it would be more advantageous to everyone if we put people who act out of Unconditional Love towards everyone on the top of the admiration-hierarchy then those who display the classic "enlightenment symptoms".  This way there is less of an issue with people asking questions like "How can this guru be enlightened and still be such an ass to everyone?"

Love,
Carson[^]

[Sparkle]

Hi Andrew

quote:I'm not too worried about establishing codes of conduct. I do love the 4 Agreements by Ruiz and I think the Noble 8 Fold Path and yoga's yamas and niyamas probably cover most of what is needed. I prefer to see improving conduct spring from stillness.

Yes, I agree that the only real lasting way that conduct will improve is out of stillness, in whichever way that is manifest in a particular path.
I do have a special interest in this at the moment as some of us here are looking at implementing a program in Ireland to deepen people's practice in the Buddhist tradition of Thich Nhat Hanh. This involves using the 14 Mindfulness Trainings as part of the process.
I am keen from my perspective to understand the best way to utilise this tool and in fact to determine for myself whether it is a good idea in the first place.
I'm not suggesting a code of conduct be developed for AYP, as you say there are lots to choose from if people want to go that route.

Something I am interested in is how useful, or not, are codes of conduct.
One disadvantage in introducing a code is that people might look to the code for their direction, whereas, looking to stay in inner silence or presence and act from there is where it's at from our perspective.

Advantages are that they can act as Milestones to indicate to a person how they are getting on. As they develop they can see themselves manifesting the codes within.
They can also serve as tools of samyama as people develop inner silence and the codes become naturally manifest.

I think though, that the emphasis should always be placed, as AYP does it, on the development of inner silence and returning to that space, whenever possible, and especially before speaking or taking action.

 

quote:From my perspective, the traditional milestones in yogic culture are misleading when applied to ourselves and others and discouraging for those who will never experience things like ecstasy, bliss, unity consciousness etc., i.e. "why continue, nothing is happening".

Yes, we have several people in our AYP group who feel little or nothing when it comes to acstacy or bliss or even a slight tickle in the spine. However some of these people still come to the group and get a lot out of it.
They do get something, they feel the peace, joy and love in the group and ultimately this is all one needs.

Personally, I would put the experiencing of greater peace, love and joy at the top of the milestones list. These are very basic things that anyone can tap into at any stage and are in fact the essential ingredients of enlightenment, in my view. Things also that can be experienced without any ecsatacy or fireworks.

I agree also that understanding the nature of the journey by talking about and exploring the fireworks of the journey can be very valuable and becomes particularly so when running an AYP group. It means that people can have their experiences validated and as long as the reminder of scenary is there, it can be great fun also.

People feeling envy and jealousy can be a double edged sword perhaps. Whilst some may walk from the practice through frustration, others will be spurned on to keep a regular twice daily practice, which in itself is no mean thing.
The people who walk would probably be better in a Buddhist setting where these things are not generally discussed much.

Maybe it's my age, but in fact most of the people I know have not much interest in the fireworks end of the journey, they recognise that simple peace and joy are what they want in their lives.
Where it is very useful is when someone comes in experiencing ecstacy etc. and needs to be in a place where it is recognised and validated as being ok.

However though, even without ecstacy and fireworks I still promote AYP as a very effective and efficient method. It does produce the results even without the fireworks.

[Anthem]

Oops![:I] I'm really sorry about that David, I thought everyone had pretty much seen it by now! Don't let that dissuade you though, it's a fantastic movie and far more to it than that one scene.

Hi Louis,

Lot's of good points, it is a difficult question to answer in regards to the usefulness of codes of conduct. Ironically the book you recommended to me "Old Path, White Clouds" by T.N. Hanh does discuss it often throughout the story of the Buddha. The need for a code of conduct  probably really depends on the amount of inner silence present in the group in question.

[CarsonZi]

Anyone here read the book "The Shack"?  My father (a devout Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian) gave this book to my wife for Christmas and the way she explained some of it to me, it sounded like at least part of the premise of the book was to state that the 10 commandments in the Bible were not meant to be "codes of conduct" as most percieve them. What they were meant for was to be used as a mirror to help us realize what it is that we often partake in that causes us suffering.  They (according to this book, or at least what I understand of it) were not meant as "Thou shalt nots" but "If you are doing these things you will never be happy".  I would love to hear anyone who has read this books perspective on this.

Love,
Carson[^]

[Sparkle]

Hi Andrew and Carson
I just saw the last two posts today. I am currently reading that book I recommended to you Andrew, "Old Path White Cloud", a good read so far[]
 

quote:The need for a code of conduct probably really depends on the amount of inner silence present in the group in question.

I don't know wheather that stacks up Andrew. In the Thich Nhat Hanh tradition for instance they have the orininal 5 precepts or guidelines from the buddha, then as one deepens one's practice the 14 Mindfulness Trainings are adopted and these are the ones adopted by lay people looking for a deeper committment. Then if one becomes a monk or nun there are a staggering 250 precepts or more.

I think what Carson said about The 10 Commandments being guidlines for happiness is a very good point. This has to be the approach to take I think.

The way I see it is, that wheather we like it or not, we are fully imbued with rules and guidlines in every aspect and walk of life. Take AYP for instance, because it deals with the dualistic nature of practices and develpoment(i.e.time based) of inner silence, there are a whole set of guidelines to follow, from DM to SB to Samyama and all the other aspects of it also. Posts here are moderated so that they comply with a code of conduct ( the guidlines). And this principle is brought into everything we do in life also.

If we ask the question - If I look deeply - with awareness and inner silence - at something I am doing or about to do - does it bring me true joy and happiness. Not meaning the instant joy one gets, which later can result in pain.
If we can be sufficiently in touch with our true nature to be able to answer this correctly each time, then obviously we don't need any guidlines for living in joy.
If on the other hand we are living a life where we are constantly being bombarded with ideas and practices that lead to disharmony, sadness and depression, then it might be more difficult to diseminate the wheat from the chaff. Our direction can easily be waylaid by ideas that may seem to bring joy, but when we look deeply at the reprecussions down the line, the opposite is true.
If also, we still have conditioning that causes us to take actions that cause us and others pain, then something to refer to, in the form of guidelines for joyful living, might not be a bad thing to be able to refer to.

I am suggesting that we DO all follow guidelines, whether we realise it or not, whether we have abondoned guidlines or not. So why not then choose guidlines that correspond with what deep inner silence shows us. In this way we are approaching it from inner silence and from guidelines that bring us more deeply into inner silence and joy.

As I said before I am not suggesting that AYP adopt guidelines for general conduct in life. What I am wondering about is the value of a good set of guidlines in association with the development of inner silence, through whatever system one practices.

Carson, that book "The Shack" sounds interesting, would you recommend it as a good read?

[CarsonZi]

Hi Louis,

I have not read the book "The Shack" myself.  My father raves about it to everyone he meets.  I believe it was written by a Christian but because of the concepts in the book being different from the conventional view taken by most sects of Christianity there were no Christian Publications that would print the book.  And because it had such a Christian base no secular publications would print the book either.  The author, (don't know his name) ended up publishing it himself out of his own pocket money and it is now a #1 bestseller, or so I'm told.  I don't know much about the ins and outs of the book as I haven't talked a lot with my father about it, and my wife found the book perplexing, a little confusing and difficult to explain, so I don't have much to go on story-wise.  I do gather that for some the first 80pages may turn you completely off and make you not finish the book.  Especially if you have children.  (or so this is what my father says....my wife wasn't bothered at all by the first 80 pages so...)  Anyways, yeah I think this book may be worth reading and I would love to hear the AYP perspective on it, but I am so involved in so many other books it may take me personally a long time to get around to reading it.  Let me know if you pick it up, cause I would love to hear a few other perspectives on it.  Thanks

Love,
Carson[^]