Actions as the measure for spiritual progress

[Anthem]

One thing that troubles me about some long term yoga practitioners is the apparent disconnect between their claimed spiritual condition and their conduct in the world.

From my perspective, the way a person conducts themselves in terms of behaviour on a daily basis, in other words their actions into the world, speaks most accurately to their internal spiritual condition. Yet I observe often with many gurus, that they speak of their spiritual symptoms and yet clearly struggle with some of the basic tenants of the eightfold path as put forth by the Buddha. Am I observing this incorrectly?

I truly hope there is a deep correlation between spiritual experiences and right action into the world. I believe that right action is the most important part of the equation here as it permeates everything going forward.

[Shanti]

quote:Originally posted by Anthem11

 I truly hope there is a deep correlation between spiritual experiences and right action into the world. I believe that right action is the most important part of the equation here as it permeates everything going forward.

What is your definition of right action Andrew?

[Anthem]

In this regard I would be referring to non-violent communication or not acting or reacting from ignorance with anger, jealousy, hatred, greed, fear, etc. From my perspective, the ultimate manifestation of life in the human body is about acting in the world from a place of love, compassion and understanding. I am starting to suspect that doing particular breathing exercises or practices over many years brings about some of the physical "enlightenment symptoms" pre-maturely for some people without the corresponding conduct based in love and understanding. It appears to be an acceleration in some of these regards without the corresponding balanced growth in other areas like day-to-day behaviour, open-mindedness, etc.

There appear to be numerous examples of gurus who have years of practice under their belts and fairly profound realizations of some symptoms like ecstasy, bliss or unity consciousness, but don't seem to exemplify the yamas and niyamas.

[tadeas]

Anthem, I agree. Nevertheless, you can never know how the experience is for the person, whether it is with attachment and identification or without it. It probably comes down to how far one's taken the self-inquiry process in the later stages. If it is worked on, then the obstructions that prevent effective communication (for example) will be dissolved. But it's really not possible to judge anyone's journey. The process has it's own course and nobody can know whether any advanced stages of unity will manifest in a person's life or not. You can only provide assistance and hope for the best

[Anthem]

True and good point Tadeas, we can't know the internal experience of a person, we can only know for ourselves. I think that here at AYP we would be better served by using measures on conduct and action in the world to assess our own spiritual condition and that of others, rather than the typical enlightenment milestones that seem so entrenched in yoga culture. Unity consciousness, ecstasy, bliss etc. aren't the entire picture or so it seems, one doesn't need to look very far to see that. I recall Yogani talking about a guru he spent time with who was exceptionally blissful yet through a "hissy-fit" if someone moved his salt shaker or something to that effect.

I haven't thought it out to any degree, but from my perspective a better way to measure our own condition and the condition of others in really the only meaningful way, would be noting some distinct progressions from the extremes of action born of violence and destructive behavior to actions based in love, compassion, understanding until the latter is established 24/7.

[Sparkle]

Hi Andrew
I have been struggling with this one myself recently. Dave(riptiz) spoke about this yesterday as follows:
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=4639#43666
Hi,
I personally feel that no practices are enough on their own without embracing the yamas and niyamas.Interaction with others will govern your progress and test you constantly.When we find purification symptoms affecting our moods we have to be on guard how we treat others and try to ignore their negative interactions with us.It's not easy but in my experience it gives you progress.
Treat others how we wish to be treated and try to ignore their weaknesses when they don't treat you in the same way.Even when one fails to observe these principles, realising that we have slipped will still give you progress.It's when we don't realise we have slipped that we aren't making progress.
L&L
Dave
For me its been a process of unlearning the Catholic conditioning imposed on me by my surroundings to date. So I have a natural aversion to rules like the yamas and niyamas. In Buddhism there are the 5 precepts and in the Thich Nhat Hanh tradition he calls them the 5 mindfulness trainings, he also developed the 14 mindfulness trainings as a further step.
The idea being that in taking on these trainings one reads them at least once every two weeks along with the practice of meditation and mindfulness. So it becomes like samyama, the more inner silence that is developed the more the trainings penetrate in a real way. It is like the old conditioned habits that even the very advanced practitioner may have, are constantly getting looked at and challenged by contemplating the mindfulness trainings or whatever guidlines one wishes to embrace.

Being awakened to non-duality is just another stepping stone, it then has to be taken into society and we still have all our conditioning to work through, it may be from a different perspective but nevertheless the work and integration still has to be done.

Personally I like the 14 mindfulness trainings, they don't say you should do anything, they say "be aware of the suffering caused by..."
to give you a flavour the first one is:
"Aware of the suffering created by fanaticism and intolerance, I am determined not to be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory or ideology, even Buddhist ones. Buddhist teachings are guiding means to help me learn to look deeply and to develop my understanding and compassion. They are not doctrines to fight, kill or die for."

Of course the whole problem is - who do you believe when it comes to rules for ourselves. In contemplating these things I suppose one always has to look deeply and not accept anything on face value. Perhaps make our own rules when we are in a particularly balanced state and see how they compare to the yamas and niyamas for instance.

In fact that's a good idea[]- I think I will have a go at that myself.

I think also that NVC (non-violent communication) offers a good way of working with it. One advantage of this system is that Mitchell came at this approach purely from his observations and with no spiritual background or baggage in that regard. It was developed simply from what worked and what didn't work - very scientific.

enough rambling[]

[AYPforum]

Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement

[emc]

Through my latest experiences I have to admit I am beginning to drop this idea. It's only an idea that someone realized would suddenly be loving and nice to everybody. On the contrary... it's the ordinary human life that goes on, including everything. THIS! It's only THIS! You will see your body continue to act as normal. And if you were not a very nice person when the shift comes... you will continue for a while - perhaps for a life time - to behave as usual, but being very aware that the YOU you thought were doing it is gone.

See Yogani's take on this: http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=4743#40738

The old ancient scriptures talks about a guy who was a soldier and became realized. He was confused and asked the God (Krishna? I don't know the source, just heard this by someone): What now? And Krishna said: You are a soldier in this lifetime. Go do what you're doing.

It's is a lie that Stillness does not kill. Since Death is actually Life, it's a perfectly necessary part of this play. Who's sending all the diseases and nature catastrophes? Stillness in action. Stillness kills, and keeps the show running.

What is the pain we inflict upon eachother with "unethical behaviour"? It's only evolution. Without the pain we would not grow. Do you wish now that some of your pain had not happened? Haven't ALL small tyrants you have met on your path served you very, very well??? I know mine have!

Just talked about this with a friend yesterday. Knowing this, it's easier to think:

"What if ALL people around me actually already are realized beings, right NOW, and I'm the last one on Earth to realize. They are ALL here to help me on my path of awakening by doing what they are doing. They are big loving hearts, seeing the show going on, and are just waiting for me to join them!"

See here for Yogani's next take on it:

http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=4743#40743

[Etherfish]

I agree. We always retain the freedom of choice. Knowing the right thing to do doesn't make us do it. One reason for not putting anyone on a pedestal.
It's funny how people imagine enlightenment making them into some kind of holy person who does no wrong. You can choose to do the right thing today; no need to wait. Of course there will always be disagreement as to what is right because we can't always know what is best for someone else.

[Anthem]

quote:Through my latest experiences I have to admit I am beginning to drop this idea. It's only an idea that someone realized would suddenly be loving and nice to everybody.

Who said anything about realized people being nice to everybody or holy?

There actions will however be born from love, even if they are hard to understand from the outside and may not appear that way. It is after all, the way life handles us, an act of love to deliver the pain we need to grow in the moment. It was an act of love for Clint Eastwood to kill his boxing student in Million Dollar Baby, but from other eyes it may not have appeared that way. You do what you have to do in the moment, action based in love and compassion instead of born from ignorance and related emotional reactions. Deep down in our hearts we can observe where the action is born.
 

quote:Without the pain we would not grow.

Couldn't agree more.

[Sparkle]

Possibly a good measure is how one's actions will pan out if you live in a community of reasonably aware people.
The notion of inflicting pain out of love is very valid but it is quite a skillful thing if it to be done with compassion, and with some concern for the harmony of the community.

It can be quite a "cop out" and a trap, to write off one's pain infliction on someone as "doing them a favour", when in fact it has been done out of malice or anger and not out of true love or compassion.

For me a set of good rules which have been put together for the hormonious welfare of both people and the environment, whether one is enlightened or not, can only help.
How one takes these in is another matter. As has been said many times on the forum, it is necessary to develop inner silence to make the integration relational.
If we have a blind spot for instance, contemplating a good set of rules is quite likely to bring it before us for consideration. Perhaps we won't see it at first and might think that rule is ridiculous, but as inner silence develops we begin to see. Without the rules we would likely continue to have that blind spot.

One simple rule of NVC is "don't speak out of anger", first take the anger and process it into something else and speak when we are back in touch with ourselves. This is a very useful rule to know, it makes a lot of sense, but when in a situation where we are angry it can get lost unless we have visited and considered that rule many times. It eventually becomes habit and part of our nature.

[yogani]

Hi All:

Interesting discussion.

Ruiz's "Four Agreements" are useful guidelines for conduct too.

However, having such guidelines for conduct is not the whole answer. If it were, the world would be a much better place, because the spiritual traditions and religions have had plenty of guidelines for conduct in place for centuries.

Since codes of conduct (yama and niyama) are already part of many spiritual traditions, they alone having limited effect on the course of human spiritual evolution, then we have to ask ourselves what might be missing.

I believe the lack of fully-integrated systems of spiritual practice is the greatest shortcoming in the traditions, not necessarily a lack of guidelines for conduct. Ironically, it seems most traditions reach a limit in the scope of spiritual practices they are able to offer because they become preoccupied with matters of conduct. In that sense, too much attention on yama/niyama can be a pitfall, like the many other pitfalls of the mind.

With many of the later practices we have presented in AYP (samyama, self-inquiry, karma yoga, etc.), having them become "relational in stillness" is the key. This is the direction we want to go in approaching yama/niyama -- moving steadily toward "stillness in action" in all aspects of our practice and our life. This places sitting practices, especially meditation and pranayama, at the center. From such a foundation in practice, all the rest can flower naturally, as these discussions indicate.  

All the best!

The guru is in you.

[emc]

Anthem wrote:

quote:...some distinct progressions from the extremes of action born of violence and destructive behavior to actions based in love, compassion, understanding...

- - -

You do what you have to do in the moment, action based in love and compassion instead of born from ignorance and related emotional reactions. Deep down in our hearts we can observe where the action is born.

I'm sorry, Anthem, but I interpreted this as if there's a difference we can notice in the moving towards a more kind and nice way to behave. Perhaps a quick conclusion. Do you mean that we could "know in our hearts" whether a parent who angrily yells at his child would do that from a place of Love or emotional unawareness? I don't think so, not even deep down in our hearts, because even if it would be those unaware, emotional actions that are seemingly destructive... are the very same love! That is also stillness in action, just a little distorted with mind interference. The Love loves the Unaware mind distortions! It loves the violence and the destruction. It created it itself for God's sake! (LOL!) It's only our interpretations that says destructiveness from mind is any less than the "acts of love and compassion", whatever that is in your picture. I just take it they are not of equal value and that "progressing" towards love is desirable in your view from your quotes above, but I might be wrong...

[Anthem]

quote:Originally posted by yogani


 However, having such guidelines for conduct is not the whole answer.

Hi Yogani,

I am not referring to having guidelines for conduct, I agree with you about that having limited effect. Yoga has long used enlightenment symptoms as a measure for a person's level of realization. The followers of a guru often look to said reports to validate a teacher's level of realization. Some teachers themselves view such symptoms or certain realizations to meaure their own progress and make claims of enlightenment often pre-maturely as some have later admitted.

I am suggesting that the roots of the action that people take (verbal, physical) are a more accurate and more meaningful measures of a person's inner condition and spiritual progress. If there are still actions based in ignorance which are reactions to emotions such as anger, jealousy, hatred, greed, fear, etc., then there is still work to be done despite levels of ecstasy, bliss or understanding of the unity of all things. Action born from love, compassion and understanding being the other end of the spectrum and only the one acting can know if their actions truly stem from these sources even if they appear otherwise from the outside.

Yoga holds inner energy development, ecstasy, bliss and unity consciousness as sign-posts and no doubt there are strong correlations to overall inner condition but these can be very misleading when certain practices accelerate certain experiences. I think we have seen this often and from the experiencer's perspective they can be misleading too, how much, how often etc., I must be enlightened, I had bliss, I saw the unity of it all etc. From my perspective it appears to me the root of action doesn't lie and is a more accurate measure.

Of course all of the measures rely on self-truth but yoga practitioners would be better served in many ways from my perspective focusing on the degree to which they act in the world from a place of love, understanding and true service.

 

[CarsonZi]

Hi emc,

quote:Originally posted by emc

Do you mean that we could "know in our hearts" whether a parent who angrily yells at his child would do that from a place of Love or emotional unawareness?

Not really trying to join the conversation here just wanted to point out that ANY angry (or annoyed/frustrated as these emotions only differ in degrees) reaction is not a loving reaction...Any discipline or "steering" done by a parent, employer, anyone, that is done with anger or anything other then pure love for the person's happiness is a reaction not made in silence and therefor cannot come from a place of Real Love.  When we get angry it is because an expectation we have had is not met and we have no right to "expect" anything from anyone.  Just my 2 cents.

Love,
Carson[^]