selfonlypath
France
296 Posts
Posted - Dec 01 2018 : 03:17:14 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
I have 2 practical questions regarding this topic.
Q1: does automatic vajroli manifest for any women wether she has never done meditation, tantra or other esoteric practices or does it require special training to also transform sexual energy for a women
Q2: for men, it is not clear to me that really semen is in-jaculated or vajroli transformed, where is the proof
After all maybe the sexual excitation is just about to reflexology or distance trigger another effect along the sushumna or central channel. This effect or experience seems to be attained by coupling or entering through other zones or main chakra or techniques. Of course, the sexual approach is vey strong and efficient if one does not ejaculate or whatever happens to a women (my first question).
Most of our bodies are similar on biology wether women or men except the genital parts and glands but at the end, for a yogi or yogini once cleared or opened or initiated the experience should be the same beyond duality.
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Vimala
France
79 Posts
Posted - Dec 01 2018 : 4:35:56 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
Q2: for men, it is not clear to me that really semen is in-jaculated or vajroli transformed, where is the proof
To be honests, we can't really be 100% sure that the turbid urine that we observe contains semen...
The important part is to make sure that this symptom doesn't last, in my opinion.
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Christi
United Kingdom
3543 Posts
Posted - Dec 01 2018 : 7:16:54 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Christi's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Selfonlypath,
quote:
Q1: does automatic vajroli manifest for any women wether she has never done meditation, tantra or other esoteric practices or does it require special training to also transform sexual energy for a women
I have never heard of a woman experiencing natural vajroli, without practicing yoga for a long time first. It usually happens only at advanced stages of practice. It is usually combined with other symptoms such as the production of a beautiful auroma, the tasting of a sweet sensation in the mouth and a minty sensation in the belly etc.
That is not to say that it could not happen without spiritual practices. In theory it certainly could, just as a kundalini awakening could happen for a woman without any spiritual practices being used.
Christi
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Christi
United Kingdom
3543 Posts
Posted - Dec 02 2018 : 09:08:42 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Christi's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Vimala
quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
Q2: for men, it is not clear to me that really semen is in-jaculated or vajroli transformed, where is the proof
To be honests, we can't really be 100% sure that the turbid urine that we observe contains semen...
The important part is to make sure that this symptom doesn't last, in my opinion.
Hi Vimala,
If you are not sure if it is semen or not and you are concerned, then see a doctor. Doctors can test uring samples for the presence of semen.
best wishes,
Christi
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selfonlypath
France
296 Posts
Posted - Dec 02 2018 : 09:24:45 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Sorry I'm not english speaking so would like to know exactly what does mean physically sexual essence in this teaching of yogani
https://www.aypsite.com/T60.html on natural vajroli.
Does semen or fluid generated by other glands are considered as sexual essence in this context wether a male and a female ?
Unless i' wrong, the male besides semen which is not supposed to not even flow through deferent channels do have other fluid-gland generator, namely seminal vesical prostate Cowper's gland. For the women, other gland and fluid generator, namely Skene Bartholin cervix.
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Christi
United Kingdom
3543 Posts
Posted - Dec 02 2018 : 10:04:23 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Christi's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Sorry I'm not english speaking so would like to know exactly what does mean physically sexual essence in this teaching of yogani
https://www.aypsite.org/T60.html on natural vajroli.
Does semen or fluid generated by other glands are considered as sexual essence in this context wether a male and a female ?
Unless i' wrong, the male besides semen which is not supposed to not even flow through deferent channels do have other fluid-gland generator, namely seminal vesical prostate Cowper's gland. For the women, other gland and fluid generator, namely Skene Bartholin cervix.
Hi Selfonlypath
The term "essence" can mean an extract, a concentrate, a distillate, an elixir, a tincture, a dilution and so on...
In the sense that it is used in that lesson, the meaning is that something is being taken from the physical sexual substances and is being drawn up through the body into the higher centres in a process that culminates in ecstatic bliss and divine love. So, we are looking at an extraordinary process that occurs to both yogis and to yoginis (both men and women) at an advanced stage of the path.
And yes, the whole process is complex. Sexual physical substances in males are produced in a number of different places in the pelvis and the same is true for women. The process becomes more complex as it rises up into the solar plexus, as different forms of prana are added from a number of different sources, before the whole process rises up from there into the head. Even then, it does not become any more simple, with both physical and etheric substances being produced in different regions and centres of the head, and falling from there back down to the torso, to be re-absorbed.
The easiest way (and possibly the only way) to understand the whole process, is to experience it directly and for that, an effective yogic practice is necessary. AYP is one such practice.
On the spiritual path, it is useful to let go of ideas such as "this should happen" or "that should not happen". When an apple tree is growing, it puts a lot of energy into producing the trunk of the tree and the branches and twigs and to sending roots down into the earth. So we could say that it is supposed to be putting energy into these things. But then, one year, suddenly something amazing happens. It produces blossom. And then the blossom falls off and it looks like it had no purpose, other than to look beautiful. But then several months later, the apples appear. Then they fall and new apple trees come up.
It is only when we see the whole process that we can say what is supposed to happen and when.
Christi
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Vimala
France
79 Posts
Posted - Dec 02 2018 : 10:20:36 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi selfonlypath,
To clarify this particular point, it's important to explain things starting from what meditators actually observe and experience.
There's the experience of retrograde ejaculation which is followed by the release of turbid, foamy urine on the next urination. This is one thing and it's called spermaturia.
Then, there's the experience of passing turbid, foamy urines in periods in which there's no sexual activity at all. The manifesting cause of this symptom is the practice of trance-like meditation.
Since this urine looks exactly like the urine passed after a retrograde, we tend to assume that this is again spermaturia.
But none can be sure of that, unless a urinalysis is performed.
For example, you can read this article
https://grapegate.com/resources/urine-sediment/ that talks about lymphatic glands detoxification with photoes of urines with sediments that look like post-retrograde ejaculation urines. They claim that the whitish substance comes from the kidneys and it's not spermaturia.
Since we don't know for sure and most people don't really care about investigating this phenomenon, the best we can hope is that this symptom is -at least- temporary.
In my experience, it's not temporary ...unless one undertakes the simple process to cure himself that I've described in this thread.
And I believe that those who claim that this is just a stage, they're simply not aware of what's going on in their bodies because for them it just doesn't matter.
Edited by - Vimala on Dec 02 2018 11:40:26 AM
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selfonlypath
France
296 Posts
Posted - Dec 02 2018 : 10:44:03 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Merci beaucoup Christi for your clear answer.
Unless I'm wrong, even for a male able to reach non-ejaculatory orgasm there can be health issues because the generated winds or vayus might not do a right job if not properly instructed by an authentic yoga school. It gets worse for a male with partial ejaculation because I guess part of the transmuted energy might not go to the right place plus you loose partial energy due to semen loss.
With female, there is an advantage to not have energy loss during orgasm since there is no need to manipulate or suffer the semen issue. However the female might has the same problem as above, namely the female orgasm creating some health issues due to partial incorrect wind management. Energy goes in a place where we are not ready to experience then we get wounded, ungrounded and maybe sick later.
It is like we generate a special circuit but if not managed correctly, it creates more disorder on esoteric level which then re-induce more physical disorders due to incorrect absorption of the experience. I guess this is why AYP teaches to stay in-front the orgasm to cultivate wether male or female, maybe it is like an homeopathy approach or self-pacing approach.
However I notice you refer to the unique case of this sexual energy going through the sushumna but how about female orgasm or male non-ejaculatory orgasm to irradiate and clean the non-dual channels, nadis... is there any lessons from Yogani addressing this alternate path to strengthen the vessel before engaging into the more serious kundalini awakening ?
Albert
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Christi
United Kingdom
3543 Posts
Posted - Dec 02 2018 : 11:09:24 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Christi's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
Merci beaucoup Christi for your clear answer.
Unless I'm wrong, even for a male able to reach non-ejaculatory orgasm there can be health issues because the generated winds or vayus might not do a right job if not properly instructed by an authentic yoga school. It gets worse for a male with partial ejaculation because I guess part of the transmuted energy might not go to the right place plus you loose partial energy due to semen loss.
With female, there is an advantage to not have energy loss during orgasm since there is no need to manipulate or suffer the semen issue. However the female might has the same problem as above, namely the female orgasm creating some health issues due to partial incorrect wind management. Energy goes in a place where we are not ready to experience then we get wounded, ungrounded and maybe sick later.
It is like we generate a special circuit but if not managed correctly, it creates more disorder on esoteric level which then re-induce more physical disorders due to incorrect absorption of the experience. I guess this is why AYP teaches to stay in-front the orgasm to cultivate wether male or female, maybe it is like an homeopathy approach or self-pacing approach.
However I notice you refer to the unique case of this sexual energy going through the sushumna but how about female orgasm or male non-ejaculatory orgasm to irradiate and clean the non-dual channels, nadis... is there any lessons from Yogani addressing this alternate path to strengthen the vessel before engaging into the more serious kundalini awakening ?
Albert
Hi Albert,
The
AYP Tantra lessons do specify that the aim is to stay well in front of orgasm, rather than attempting to cultivate non-ejaculatory orgasms. This is the case for both men and women, but is less important for women as they lose less energy through orgasm.
The AYP practices are all purification practices and help to prepare the vessel for this whole process to occur. In fact this process will occur even without any tantric sexual practices being used. It will happen to both men and women, when the body is purified enough.
The process of Spinal Breathing Pranayama purifies the first 6 chakras (root to ajna). These chakras are connected to every nadi in the body and to every other chakra and so, purifying these energy centres and the central nerve (shushumna), by default, will purify every other aspect of the subtle neurobiology. Only when the subtle neurobiology reaches a certain stage of purity, will kundalini awaken and the process of the nectar cycle and the production of amrita begin.
If tantric sexual practices are used on their own, as a stand alone practice, then it is really all-bets-off as no direction is being given to the flows of prana. Tantric sexual practices should really only be used in addition to a full-scope yogic practice.
Christi
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selfonlypath
France
296 Posts
Posted - Dec 02 2018 : 3:00:56 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Vimala,
Let's take the first example of male has classic ejaculatory orgasm, after say 2 hours he then goes to urinate in a glass, how should the urine appear visually ?
Now let's take the second example of a male experiencing a non-ejaculatory orgasm, again after say 2 hours he then goes to urinate in a glass, how should the urine appear visually ?
Albert
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Vimala
France
79 Posts
Posted - Dec 03 2018 : 02:33:42 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Albert,
quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
Let's take the first example of male has classic ejaculatory orgasm, after say 2 hours he then goes to urinate in a glass, how should the urine appear visually ?
Now let's take the second example of a male experiencing a non-ejaculatory orgasm, again after say 2 hours he then goes to urinate in a glass, how should the urine appear visually ?
The circumstances of having ejaculatory sex doesn't affect the composition of urines. Urine in a glass appears transparent. It means that while you're holding the glass full of urine, you can see your fingers and the bathroom through the glass.
If a retrograde ejaculation occurred, urine in a glass appears turbid and foamy. Not transparent. It means that while you're holding the glass full of urine, you can't see your fingers and the bathroom through the glass.
Edited by - Vimala on Dec 03 2018 04:04:24 AM
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selfonlypath
France
296 Posts
Posted - Dec 03 2018 : 04:56:52 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Vimala,
The reason I did ask for the first case (ejaculatory orgasm with no urine during 2 hours) was to imagine a case of some stuck semen in urethra after ejaculation would partially or slightly affect the transparency... i'm bit surprised you say it should be fully transparent in that case but you might be right.
As for the second case, do you agree that if male has non-ejaculatory orgasm with no retrograde to bladder, then after 2 hours or many hours before urinating again the glass should stay transparent ?
Albert
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Vimala
France
79 Posts
Posted - Dec 03 2018 : 07:34:29 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi selfonlypath,
quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
The reason I did ask for the first case (ejaculatory orgasm with no urine during 2 hours) was to imagine a case of some stuck semen in urethra after ejaculation would partially or slightly affect the transparency... i'm bit surprised you say it should be fully transparent in that case but you might be right.
There might be some semen stucked in the urethra in certain cases and it could slightly affect transparency, but not as much as a full retrograde. We're talking about tiny particles: the appearance is still that of an overall transparent fluid.
quote:
Originally posted by selfonlypath
As for the second case, do you agree that if male has non-ejaculatory orgasm with no retrograde to bladder, then after 2 hours or many hours before urinating again the glass should stay transparent ?
The practice of edging and tantric pre-orgasmic sex with no external ejaculations leads over time -if not immediately- and inevitably to a condition that could be spermaturia in which semen is found in the urine. Spermaturia naturally happens at the beginning of puberty for males and it's reported for around 50% of males.
It's a natural response of the organism that needs to get rid of excess fluids.
If a male has non-ejaculatory orgasm with no retrograde to the bladder, the symptoms that could be associated with spermaturia manifest during the 24 hrs following the practice. 24 hrs represents the basic cycle of human beings in which the biological system passes through the different balancing stages and processes of the day.
If a male remains pre-orgasmic, he can spend many days without noticing anything in his urines, but the symptoms will eventually manifest after some time and, after the first manifestation, it'll start to appear during the 24 hrs following the sexual act as the body natural response to excessive fluids.
We can't be sure that it's spermaturia because I'm not aware of performed urinalysises in those cases.
As I mentioned in a previous post, there are those who associate the phenomenon with a purification of the lymphatic system: in practical terms, the whithish substance could come from the kidneys.
Edited by - Vimala on Dec 03 2018 08:34:55 AM
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selfonlypath
France
296 Posts
Posted - Dec 06 2018 : 03:50:12 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Vimala
The external events that trigger the manifestation of retrograde spermatorrhea are:
1)eating
2)sleeping
3)meditation
4)sex
The prerequisite is to avoid meditation and sex for the recovery period.
Hi Vimala,
I've been re-reading some of your posts, the rationale but I'm more and more confused. Unless i'm wrong, you seem to have experienced, discovered that in fact wether meditation or non-ejaculatory sex generates semen in bladder then urine non-transparent. You also said that eating and sleeping would trigger as well retrograde spermotorrhea, non-transparent urine... What I do not understand, it seems that wether we do meditation, tantrik sex or other simple activities (sleep, eat) then the urine are not clear in your vessel.
Just found an old post, it seems the first post of yours where already in 2013 you were inquiring or doubting or fearing the sperm in urine
http://www.aypsite.com/forum/I'm not advanced yogi, meditator... but I'm quite lost, feel some contradiction in your info and seriously wonder if the explanation is of another nature than side-effects of tantra.
Maybe you should follow Christi wisdom advice to have your urine check by lab analysis. After all, you say to have method to heal the issue so you could temporarily trigger the issue then have medical test lab verify during 48 hours scan what are exactly the content affecting the transparency of your urine. Once test are done, you would apply the self-healing method to resume safely.
Just my 2 cents, Albert
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Vimala
France
79 Posts
Posted - Dec 06 2018 : 05:29:17 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi selfonlypath,
think of the condition as active or inactive. When it's active, there are triggering events (sleeping, eating, etc...): that's why I mentioned the common ones.
What put the condition in the active state is either tantric practices or meditation.
In the old post of 2013 I had different hypothesis and I was puzzled by the event. I was assured that the appearance of semen in urine in vajroli is temporary, but it's not: I think that since the old post was in 2013, we can both convene that enough time has passed for me to see if it resolves by itself.
Recently, I discovered the theories of the naturopath Robert Morse who has a youtube channel (
https://www.youtube.com/user/robertmorsend). He theorizes that the kidneys have a special function to filter the lymphatic system: he says that once this higher function is activated by a healthy diet and spirituality, one will start to pass mucus-like substances and sediments in urine. He observes that this phenomeon is not a temporary stage of purification, but something that repeats every day as the body needs to get rid of waste material.
It's possible to find dozens of youtube videos of people who experience this condition. Here's a few examples. Notice that in some videos, the fluid had some time to sediment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrWPKOWd_fg&t=70shttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P9fPS7TvGA&t=48shttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G0ZbyaCDW4https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBLbEhLt7m8&t=109sThat's how your post retrograde ej. urination looks like, especially in video 1.
There are a few points to be addressed:
1)
the first one is that I don't really need a special diet to get there and those people in the Morse community generally say that the diet alone didn't work: they had to do some meditation.
2)
the second one is that in AYP teachings, this is a stage that is supposed to pass... but, ok... let just say that there's not really a crowd of people confirming this experience in AYP forum. Rather, there are a lot of people outside of this community that claim the opposite: that the condition is permanent.
My conclusions are that this condition is produced by certain types of meditation. I don't know for sure what it is, but it's probably permanent, not difficult to achieve and IME not beneficial (there are those who reported hair loss even in the Morse community).
You can call it natural vajroli or kidneys detox: it's the same thing.
Maybe we just need some science on this.
But I don't really need to induce this condition in my body again to test what the substance is ...since I'm not interested in hazardous meditation experiments and there are plenty of people who are experiencing this and can do the test. BTW, my urine has been tested recently and I'm perfectly fine, no strange sediments, etc...
Edited by - Vimala on Dec 06 2018 06:11:04 AM
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Christi
United Kingdom
3543 Posts
Posted - Dec 06 2018 : 07:05:55 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Christi's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Vimala,
quote:
In the old post of 2013 I had different hypothesis and I was puzzled by the event. I was assured that the appearance of semen in urine in vajroli is temporary, but it's not: I think that since the old post was in 2013, we can both convene that enough time has passed for me to see if it resolves by itself.
I can confirm for you that the appearance of sexual fluids in the urine, as a result of the process of automatic vajroli is temporary. It does not last forever. In my own case it lasted for around 15 years, but I do not remember exactly.
The length of time that it lasts for is a direct result of two things. The level of purification of your subtle neurobiology and the effectiveness of the spiritual practices that you are using. So, it will vary greatly from person to person.
Yogani discusses the process involved in moving beyond this stage here:
https://www.aypsite.com/forum/"Regarding the upward ecstatic flow, there can be plateaus in that like any other aspect of yoga. You could be plateaued between natural physical vajroli without much contrasting upward ecstatic flow (most semen remaining in the urine) and physical vajroli with ongoing upward ecstatic flow (most semen being absorbed up through the neurobiology with little expelled in urine after half an hour or so). With a continuation of your practices, and keeping active in-between, you will inevitably move beyond any plateau. However, this would not mean a permanent loss of ability to ejaculate externally. Unless it does, of course. Yogis and yoginis come in all flavors, and there are those who would just as soon move beyond external sexual function entirely. They may be found in ashrams and other cloistered environments, often with vows of celibacy." [Yogani]
In any case, it is not a relevant issue because the presence of sexual fluids in the urine, is not a medical issue. It is something that has been studied by the medical profession and they have concluded that there are no negative side effects, except in the rare case that I mentioned above, where someone has a zinc deficient diet.
It sounds as if you do experience the presence of something in your urine from time-to-time, but that you are not sure what it is, or where it is coming from? Secretions from the kidneys down into the bladder are not a part of the process of natural vajroli.
As you are healthy and well at the moment, my suggestion would be to do nothing for now. But if you do experience something in the future which concerns you, to get checked out by a doctor, to see if you can discover what is actually happening.
Obviously on this forum we are not qualified to give medical advice.
best wishes,
Christi
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Vimala
France
79 Posts
Posted - Dec 06 2018 : 10:19:43 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Christi,
thank you for sharing your experience.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
It sounds as if you do experience the presence of something in your urine from time-to-time, but that you are not sure what it is, or where it is coming from? Secretions from the kidneys down into the bladder are not a part of the process of natural vajroli.
At times, it was something rising from muladhara and at other times no inner movements were perceived.
I'm aware that secretions from the kidneys down to the bladder are not part of natural vajroli, but I don't assume that our perceptions of internal movements accurately describe the intricacies of what's really going on.
We use paradigms to talk about inner reality, just like the ancient yogis who devised dozens of different and incoherent chakra systems and methods of meditation.
Actually, I find the mere idea of practicing for years with semen being released into the bladder to be extremely uncomfortable to bear.
Maybe this is my limit, but yet I can't really imagine how Yogani could have gone through all of this without being worried as this was an entirely new ground: in that situation, I would have abandoned the practice.
IMHO, tt would feel much better to discover that it's just waste materials and mucus: I hope that scientific analysis will be done someday.
Edited by - Vimala on Dec 06 2018 12:16:44 PM
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Christi
United Kingdom
3543 Posts
Posted - Dec 06 2018 : 4:40:45 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Christi's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Actually, I find the mere idea of practicing for years with semen being released into the bladder to be extremely uncomfortable to bear.
Maybe this is my limit, but yet I can't really imagine how Yogani could have gone through all of this without being worried as this was an entirely new ground: in that situation, I would have abandoned the practice.
IMHO, tt would feel much better to discover that it's just waste materials and mucus: I hope that scientific analysis will be done someday.
Hi Vimala,
To be honest I have never experienced any discomfort from any aspect of the processes involved with the nectar cycle, including automatic vajroli. The early stages are a bit strange, but the higher stages involving the production of amrita at the crown chakra are very ecstatic and intoxicating.
As for Yogani, he was certainly not treading any new ground. People have been practising yoga for thousands of years, with many people going through the alchemical transformation and experiencing amrita. So, he was just following in the footsteps of the thousands who have gone before. Of course, not everyone can do it. There are many transformations that happen on the path, on the physical, emotional and mental levels and not everyone can cope with the whole process. There is a great deal that we have to let go of, during the process of awakening, including our ideas about what is supposed to happen. This is why enlightenment has always been for the few, rather than the many.
Christi
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Vimala
France
79 Posts
Posted - Dec 07 2018 : 6:14:24 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Christi,
I believe that there's still a lot of mystery around the potential of human mind and while many things are mentioned and possibly misinterpreted in ancient texts, the value of modern experience is invaluable.
For example, vajroli is mentioned very briefly in Shiva Samhita with little details and an high chance of being a fabulous invention of some ancient writers. To actually go through it and experience what it is, requires some bravery in my opinion.
Another question could be, is it true that Amrita promotes physichal rejuvenation?
I love the book "Roots of Yoga" which IMHO is very informative and gives a fresh perspective about the source of modern practices.
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Christi
United Kingdom
3543 Posts
Posted - Dec 08 2018 : 2:19:17 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Christi's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Vamila,
This is an extract from the Shiva Samhita [14th-17th Century AD]:
_______________________________
"Vajroli-mudra
Actuated by mercy for my devotees, I shall now explain the Vajroli-mudra, the destroyer of the darkness of the world, the most secret among all secrets.
Even while living according to his wish and without conforming to the regulations of Yoga, a householder can become emancipated, if he practices the Vajroli-mudra.
This Vajroli Yoga practice liberates, even when immersed in his senses; therefore it should be practiced by the Yogi with great care.
First, according to the proper methods, let the wise yogi bring into his own body the generative power from the female organ of generation, by absorption through the phallus; restraining his semen, let him practice copulation.
When his sexual power is aroused, let him move his phallus. If by chance the semen begins to move, let him stop its emission by the practice of the Yoni-mudra.
Let him withdraw the semen to the left, and withdraw from intercourse. After a while, let him continue it again.
Following the guidance of his instructor and by uttering the sound hum, hum, let him absorb through the contraction of the Apana Vayu, the creative elements of the yoni.
By means of this practice, the Yogi, worshipper of the lotus-feet of his Guru, should obtain quick success in Yoga and drink celestial nectar [amrita].
Know semen to be lunar and the seed is solar; let the Yogi unite them in his body [through this practice].
I [Shiva] am the semen, Sakti is the generative fluid; when they are [perfectly] combined in the body [through this practice], then the body of the Yogi becomes divine.
Ejaculation of semen brings death, preserving it within brings life. Therefore, one should make sure to retain the semen within.
One is born and dies through semen; in this there is no doubt. Knowing this, the Yogi must always preserve his semen.
When the precious jewel of semen is mastered, anything on earth can be mastered. Through the grace of its preservation, one becomes as great as me [Shiva].
The use of semen determines the happiness or pain of all beings living in the world, who are deluded [by desire] and are subject to death and decay.
This is the ultimate Yoga. Even though immersed in the world of the senses, one can reach perfection through its practice.
Without a doubt, through this practice the Yogi will acquire all kinds of powers, while at the same time enjoying the ecstasies of the world.
This Yoga can be practiced along with much enjoyment; therefore the Yogi should practice it.
... I [Shiva] have revealed this Yoga because of love for my devotees. It should be guarded well with the greatest care, and not be given to everybody.
It is the most secret of all secrets that ever were or shall be; therefore let the prudent Yogi guard it carefully."
_______________________________
That is a pretty clear description of the tantric sexual processes involved with the
holdback method and even includes a variation on the
blocking method, using the eyes to momentarily reverse the apana vayu, rather than the fingers to block at the perineum.
It does not go into much detail about what happens, other than to say that a yogi who is successful at this will experience amrita and gain many powers. It does also say that mastery of this process will lead to perfection (siddha) and emancipation (moksha).
What is not mentioned here, is that the culmination of this process will only work for someone who has purified their body through the practices of pranayama and meditation. The process involves the production of amrita at the crown, which requires the crown chakra to be activated, purified and stable. And the activation of the crown chakra requires the first 6 chakras to be purified and stable.
At the same time, the whole process requires the yogi or yogini to be submerged in inner silence, to be stable and effective and to lead to liberation. So it is actually just one part of a much bigger process which is yoga.
It is not uncommon for the older texts to take one aspect of yoga and to present it as if it is sufficient on its own. Even today, that can still happen in some schools of yoga.
The text does say that the body will become divine, but does not say anything about physical rejuvenation. My experience is that people do not become younger. But they do become younger at heart and more loving, which is actually the real goal of yoga. It begins in the heart. Then the alchemical process moves all the way up through the body to the crown of the head. Then it ends in the heart.
Christi
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Dogboy
USA
1586 Posts
Posted - Dec 08 2018 : 6:31:25 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
The text does say that the body will become divine, but does not say anything about physical rejuvenation. My experience is that people do not become younger. But they do become younger at heart and more loving, which is actually the real goal of yoga. It begins in the heart. Then the alchemical process moves all the way up through the body to the crown of the head. Then it ends in the heart.
As an old dog, so true! Christi, I no longer expel semen as my prostate has been removed, but my understanding is that even though I don?t physically lose semen, orgasm is still ?the little death? and loss is there, yes?
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Christi
United Kingdom
3543 Posts
Posted - Dec 09 2018 : 05:40:12 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Christi's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Dogboy,
quote:
As an old dog, so true! Christi, I no longer expel semen as my prostate has been removed, but my understanding is that even though I don?t physically lose semen, orgasm is still ?the little death? and loss is there, yes?
That depends. Once you are at the stage where you are able to feel the flows of energy in your body, then you can determine for yourself if you are losing prana or not. If you feel an energetic loss, then yes, you are losing prana. If you don't, then you aren't.
In the higher stages of the path, both yogis and yoginis are able to experience orgasm all of the time 24/7, without any energy loss. So, it really depends on the state of purifcation of your subtle neurobiology.
You may find this topic useful:
Q & A on automatic vajroli and the nectar cycleChristi
Dogboy
USA
1586 Posts
Posted - Dec 09 2018 : 12:45:24 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
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Vimala
France
79 Posts
Posted - Dec 09 2018 : 12:47:55 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Christi,
I believe that ancient Yoga Texts cannot be considered reliable instruction manuals for a number of reasons spanning from the abundant use of poetic images and repetitive refrains (es. "...conquer death and gain all Siddhis", etc...) with no purposes other than make the text more elegant to the obvious absence of a physical Guru. The limits of yoga texts were probably known to the authors themselves who instruct the seekers to find the Master of the art and receive instructions.
Far from giving excessive credit to the claims of those ancient poets, I believe that talentend individuals can conquer the Art in the modern age without a Guru. But for the same reasons that prevent me from blindly accept the dogmatic belief in the necessity of a physical master, I can reasonably consider that engaging the practices described is done at my own peril with no guarantee of them being perfectly safe methods.
It is known that there were many yoga systems and not even Patanjali's treatise was considered to be the bible of Yoga.
There were people getting sick doing pranayama and a lot of magic along the way.
Vajroli from the Shiva Samhita doesn't compare to a detailed AYP lesson: if it doesn't work, complain to Shiva, the author.
That should clarify my point as to why I beolieve that it requires bravery to investigate the yoga methods and how we are fortunate in having living yogis who practice those methods today.
The processes of the nectar cycle and the spiritual functions of the bladder are not described in ancient texts: we can even read tantric instructions that suggest the actual physical consumption of sexual fluids of the male and female combined in the yoni (vagina) after the coitus.
From my point of view, modern experience has more value than ancient scriptural compositions.
For example, a modern yogi could write a commentary of the Shiva Samhita... and that commentary would be more reliable than the actual medieval text.
But in the light of the discoveries of neurobiology, we know today that it's possible to stimulate an area of the brain with electricity and produce the vivid impression of someone touching a specific body part... and much more.
The conclusion is that our brain is very capable of deceiving itself when it comes to the description of internal processes and conditions: the fact that placebo effects must be taken into account when performing experiments stands witness to the power of the brain in self-deception.
Therefore, when I read accounts and descriptions of internal events written by spiritual practitioners (for example, the philocalia), I try to consider the physical manifestations that lead to specific conclusions. For example, a christian monk says that he experienced supramundane love because the Holy Spirit descended from God and enlightened his soul... and a Yogi says that he experienced supramundane love because he did certain energy practices and was blessed by the shakti of his Guru.
In my opinion, the nectar cycle described by Yogani and experienced by many practitioners is a real spiritual transformation, but I can't be sure of the details even if I experience it myself.
I believe that it's possible to experience a detox of the lymphatic system and believe that a discharge of semen into the bladder has taken place: consider for example, how close to the spine the kidneys are.
My attention is shifted from the "how" to the "what", so to speak: that's why it's relevant to me not to have bad side effects and know if something is supposed to pass or not.
This should clarify why I mentioned Robert Morse in a previous post.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
The text does say that the body will become divine, but does not say anything about physical rejuvenation. My experience is that people do not become younger. But they do become younger at heart and more loving, which is actually the real goal of yoga.
I've read many refences to the throat chakra, kechari and amrita as being spiritual components producing longevity... that's why I asked.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
Edited by - Vimala on Dec 09 2018 12:53:19 PM
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Christi
United Kingdom
3543 Posts
Posted - Dec 09 2018 : 2:24:13 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Christi's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Vimala,
I would certainly agree with you that the ancient texts are only of limited value. They are often incomplete in their descriptions and occasionally misleading. But they can be useful at times and a sourse of inspiration.
Much more valuable is a living teacher who has practised the techniques for him or herself, and experienced the fruits of the path.
You may find this lesson useful:
Lesson 57 - The Guru is in Me?Christi
