Chaz
USA
129 Posts
Posted - Jan 23 2016 : 10:57:13 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Topic Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Message Delete Topic
Hello friends,
I just wanted to share some observations that I've made over the course of my sadhana. I'm afraid that for a long time the notion that I do not need a master, someone who has attained perfect God-realization, has been failing me. For a while I was quite satisfied with the idea. But now I'm starting to see clearly that the one most important missing element is that I in fact do need the help of a living (or otherwise perceptible) master. I'll explain through my experiences.
So after starting AYP in mid 2011, I've gone down a long road of spiritual direction. There have been many extreme ups and downs. I have seen much progress, and I am glad I was able to achieve that alone with the tools provided by Yogani. However, there is still MUCH work to be done, many self created illusions to be seen through, and I just can't imagine that I alone can cut through this junk all by myself. It hasn't worked so far. If I were to use a metaphor I would say it's like riding a boat across the river. We can say the boat is the mind. Now the boat has many tiny little holes in it. As the boat crosses the river water seeps through the holes, and I am frantically trying to cover the holes with my hands. It simply cannot be done from within the boat- it will inevitably sink. I need someone who's experienced with boats, who knows how to fix the holes and make sure the boat can travel safely across the water. So, my experience is that it is VERY hard to try to get rid of negative tendencies and illusions all on my own.
I have felt much of what is discussed in AYP. I've felt a love so powerful I thought my chest would burst right open and swallow up the whole universe. And yet, mere moments later after an incident, I could slip in a rage. The ecstasy I felt so easily replaced with pain. The tendency to slip back into negative behaviors and ways of thinking is quite strong here. I feel it's as if I've caught myself in a never-ending cycle. Feeling as though I'm getting somewhere, then slipping back to square one. Perhaps this is some sort of imbalance, but quite frankly I feel it will take me a very long time trying to work it out all on my own.
You see, I take full responsibility for my spiritual work. I don't think finding a master will solve my problems then and there, and I don't expect a master to make the work easier for me. But I do expect finding a master will make things much clearer to me. I just think it's a lot easier to see Truth when there is a light to guide you. It's a lot easier to see your delusions when an objective perspective is presented to you. It's very easy to trick myself, my mind is very strong. I can try to be as authentic as I want but still stones may be left unturned. The ego will always try to hide, even behind the notion of being authentic. Whether I'm wrong or not, the fact is so far this has been my experience. Many great teachers have stressed the importance of having the guidance of a Guru. I don't think their advice is unwarranted. Right now I'm unsure of a lot of things in a spiritual sense, and I just want to see living proof that what I'm after in this lifetime is very real and very much something I can achieve.
So friends, please offer me some guidance here. If you have any helpful words against my view, feel free to share. I know there are some here who have discussed their experiences with having a guru, can you provide me with some insight and information? How did you find them? Do you feel it was a necessary step in spiritual growth? If so, when did you realize you needed that kind of guidance? Now I know there are a few who will say "if you pay attention, everyone can be your guru." Yes I very well know God speaks through many voices and encounters, but I am talking about a person who has direct perception of the One, the Absolute Truth, and has the desire to help others find that.
Also if anyone knows of any spiritual teachers that frequently visit or are based in the NYC area, PLEASE send me some info via this discussion or email. I am really craving the physical presence of a master to just sit with them in Satsang. Please share your knowledge on the subject if you know anything.
Thank you!
Edit: subject wording
Edited by - Chaz on Feb 03 2016 2:03:45 PM
Blanche
USA
545 Posts
Posted - Jan 24 2016 : 12:53:03 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Blanche's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hello Chaz,
Your longing for a living master is palpable. I feel the same way sometimes. Maybe you will find your guru. I hope your bhakti will bring you answers.
The metaphor of the boat you use to cross the ocean is a familiar one to me. I have had a similar "vision." This is a kind of koan. Where are you going with the boat? What is the boat? What else is there? What is impermanent and what is permanent?
It seems to me that the boat is the ego. The ego is dissolving - the boat has many holes - and the mind tries to save the ego (the boat). The mind is telling you that nothing is happening, that you should abandon what you are doing. Whatever you do, it would be good to keep up the practice. You are getting somewhere.
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1140 Posts
Posted - Jan 24 2016 : 01:25:16 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Dear Chaz,
Good to hear from you. I logged onto to the forum today, to discuss exactly this.
quote:
Many great teachers have stressed the importance of having the guidance of a Guru. I don't think their advice is unwarranted.
I, too, sometimes despair of making progress and really wish I had one on one access to a physical Guru. It is a feeling of two steps forward, one step backward. Then information about a technique you have been using would pop up and you would realize you may not have been paying enough attention to the instruction given (something a master would have corrected you straight away). But I keep going and all in all, I trust the path.
What causes concern is when a teacher like Sri Mukherjee says that initiation is the foundation of the building you are trying to build, without which you will never make it. What to believe?
I just keep going. Perhaps the only advice I can offer is one of Yogani's - one which I have to remind myself of every now and again, so as not to get caught up in mind games:
'"Do your practices daily like brushing your teeth - then forget everything and go out and live fully. "
Stop trying to be this or that or do this or that. Just do the practices and let everything else take care of itself.
Sey
Edit - P.S. You know what else? I may never reach some grand state of realization or Liberation without a master, but I am happy with the self-improvement I have been able to achieve reflected in my relationships to others. And that makes it all worth it.
Edited by - SeySorciere on Jan 24 2016 01:54:19 AM
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts
Posted - Jan 24 2016 : 03:25:52 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Chaz, I appreciate your post, very profound and honest. Thank you.
If your inner guru is clearly telling you that time has come for you to find a guru, then I would suggest to follow that. But I would avoid going to the first guru you find, and just stay open and wait for the right one to appear on your path.
Did you already come across a guru that attracted you? That would be a clear sign too that you have to make such step.
Wish you all the best.
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Charliedog
1533 Posts
Posted - Jan 24 2016 : 03:50:13 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Charliedog's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote Chaz
quote:
Do you feel it was a necessary step in spiritual growth? If so, when did you realize you needed that kind of guidance?
For me yes, it was not a guru of name and fame, and he didn't liked the word guru. He was my yoga teacher. Also he was very strict in independence and "you are doing this yourself" saying. I recognized in him what I was longing for and that was not on a personal level. First I didn't understand myself in this. I started to talk with him, when I read Patanjali and realized I needed help.
I know he was important to me, looking back, he was my mirror. I talked sometimes with him if I was caught in my mind again. It helped. He pointed me back, gave me tools. Never a solution.
I trusted him and believe that because of my love for him, I received visions that were life and perspective changing, but can I say that for sure?
I don't know, what I do know is that he was there at the right place and the right time.
On the other hand, when he left me, it was so painful, but also that was at the right time.
Don't know if this is helpful,
PS I didn't had AYP back then.
Believing that a guru is necessary is also the mind which is saying there is something to reach somewhere.....stay in the present moment.
Edited by - Charliedog on Jan 24 2016 06:12:06 AM
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Dogboy
USA
1552 Posts
Posted - Jan 24 2016 : 07:23:42 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Chaz, welcome back!
quote:
I have felt much of what is discussed in AYP. I've felt a love so powerful I thought my chest would burst right open and swallow up the whole universe. And yet, mere moments later after an incident, I could slip in a rage. The ecstasy I felt so easily replaced with pain. The tendency to slip back into negative behaviors and ways of thinking is quite strong here. I feel it's as if I've caught myself in a never-ending cycle. Feeling as though I'm getting somewhere, then slipping back to square one. Perhaps this is some sort of imbalance, but quite frankly I feel it will take me a very long time trying to work it out all on my own.
If I remember right from your early posts, you're relatively young right? (mid 20's?) Well you have that going for you; this is an important decision as the right guru may propel you forward and the wrong one can really mangle things worse than you believe they are. Now is the time to pursue this before family and career make this decision a less viable one. Do you really fall back to square one when you stumble? I think not; keeping up with daily practices assures you are moving forward regardless of occasional missteps.
I believe youthfulness is somewhat impatient and desire burns strongly. I'm in my fifties and have only been with AYP for a couple of years, so this Guru In You approach completely satisfies my spiritual thirst. Then again, I don't have an Enlightenment Endgame in my sights, I'm loving the texture differences in each and every sit and that is enough for me. I wish you well in your quest of the heart and let us know how it goes.
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1475 Posts
Posted - Jan 24 2016 : 09:10:42 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hello Chaz
quote:
Originally posted by Chaz
I do expect finding a master will make things much clearer to me.
What is it that you are unclear about?
I shouldn't worry about the holes in that boat either. Blanche has already said it - sooner or later, the boat will have to go.
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sunyata
USA
1388 Posts
Posted - Jan 24 2016 : 09:39:19 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Chaz,
Great advice already from everyone. Thank you for sharing. Your longing for the truth is evident in the post. What are your practices as of right now? I have a feeling that you may be overloading. Sometimes, it's better to lay off energetic practices when one is going through extreme ups and downs and ground oneself.
Something you can try- Next time you are going through a high state. How about you remind yourself that this too shall pass? Don?t push the experience away, be with it. But don?t cling on to it either and same when a low state comes up. At this time you are letting your states of experience, pull you here and there.
Is Samyama part of your practice? You should have some degree of inner silence by now. This is a wonderful practice in letting go. Letting go everything- states of experience, action, thought and so on.
Blanche is right. The mind is coming up with all of these questions. Have you tried self inquiry? This will help you see through the mind.
Spiritual community does help one in the journey. We are a big group here. If your heart?s desire is to meet a Guru then follow it. In today?s day and age, you don?t have to go too far to meet a Guru. It?s at the click of a button. The internet has it all.
If a Guru promises you that he can make you enlightened then run the other way. Yes, some Gurus come with special powers, if they are intoxicated with it, then run the other way as well. An authentic Guru like Yogani will provide the tools and let you know that you have to do the digging.
No one can give us enlightenment. The " I and it's stories" needs to get out of the way. We have to do our own work and dissolve our blockages. We can be open to receive grace. Once we are open, we don?t need to go very far. We can be at the grocery store and a look from a stranger, a tomatoe, an apple, a loved one, an act of kindness, a flower can reveal our true nature.
You have come this far, keep going.
Self Pace, Stay Grounded, Practice and Enjoy Life!
Sunyata
Edited by - sunyata on Jan 24 2016 10:08:27 AM
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dv2014
USA
91 Posts
Posted - Jan 24 2016 : 2:46:07 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
What I am finding lately is that having an 'ishta' in a physical or human form is helpful. Earlier my ishta was an abstract ideal, or a mere desire or passion for self improvement. While that remains strong even now, I have been consciously cultivating a personal relationship with an ishta. Having such an intimate, emotional relationship with a real or imaginary form of Guru or God seems critical, which now enables me to slowly open my heart, surrender, cry for help, demand for more progress or whatever, you name it. But that is still not a one on one personal relation where someone acknowledged me as his/her student and guiding on a personal level. It's all in my mind, and I am happy with that. More than the specific tools and advises, I long for an emotional relationship with a master, where someone loves and cares for you unconditionally. And I suspect such relations are best when imagined, where you are assuring yourself your Guru or ishta is always there for you, and you are his/her favorite disciple So this seems working for me at this point.
Perhaps a question to ponder is - Are you looking for a Guru for personally adjusted tools and practical details of applying them along the path, or more for a loving emotional support?
All the very best to you in your path
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lalow33
USA
929 Posts
Posted - Jan 24 2016 : 3:28:18 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Chaz,
So wonderful to hear from you. Findind a guru is a path that many take; it may be appropriate for you. If you decide to not find a guru, I'd recommend samyama ( like sunyata said) and looking towards an Ishta( like dv2014 said).
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts
Posted - Jan 24 2016 : 3:35:01 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
I'll be your guru, Chaz. I've attained perfect God-realization. Don't mind my muddy past. I'm now clean as a whistle and without impurities. Swear to God.
Just kidding, bro.
Stop trying to be perfect, kid. You already are. All this life is is perfection becoming more perfect (I wrote a blog about that paradox recently in my AYP for Recovery thread).
Spiritual practices just augment and fine-tune the flow of life. The juice of life is found in the arts, crafts, and most importantly, the personal relationships contained within your vicinity of awareness and interaction.
Go out and live life fully. Find a passion and devote yourself to it. Maybe that involves a guru, or maybe you just need to dare to dream that you have something valuable to contribute to the world. I'm betting you do.
Take small steps...nothing too dramatic. Your call.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts
Posted - Jan 24 2016 : 3:38:51 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
P.S. The ego is not the enemy. The ego is the vehicle of enlightenment. Note it!
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1475 Posts
Posted - Jan 24 2016 : 6:04:09 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
P.S. The ego is not the enemy.
Of course not, it helps us function till we find a different way of being. But it is full of holes and we may begin to notice them gradually, that's of course till we realize the whole thing is a work of fiction. I remember Yogani saying somewhere that the ego cuts the branch from under its own feet, so yes, it is a vehicle for enlightenment. This can feel unnerving at times, maybe this is what Chaz is experiencing.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts
Posted - Jan 24 2016 : 10:00:43 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
The ego of "I" is not fiction. The ego is very real. Individuality is just as authentic as the whole which it inhabits. The many are the One, and the One are the many.
Tomorrow, I will be posting a blog in my Recovery thread entitled: "Why I Love the Ego". I encourage all to read!
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lalow33
USA
929 Posts
Posted - Jan 24 2016 : 10:53:15 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Chaz, don't try to fix all the holes in the boat. It'll be a never ending endeavor. You'll just notice and see through one day or maybe you won't. You don't have to fix the mind. This yoga is not self help.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts
Posted - Jan 24 2016 : 11:08:26 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Had to post the "Why I Love the Ego" blog tonight:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....ge=10#135812Long Live The Ego!!! [Thunderous and roaring applause and shouting]
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Anthem
Canada
1608 Posts
Posted - Jan 25 2016 : 9:24:54 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Chaz
Hello friends,
I have felt much of what is discussed in AYP. I've felt a love so powerful I thought my chest would burst right open and swallow up the whole universe. And yet, mere moments later after an incident, I could slip in a rage. The ecstasy I felt so easily replaced with pain. The tendency to slip back into negative behaviors and ways of thinking is quite strong here. I feel it's as if I've caught myself in a never-ending cycle. Feeling as though I'm getting somewhere, then slipping back to square one. Perhaps this is some sort of imbalance, but quite frankly I feel it will take me a very long time trying to work it out all on my own.
Hi Chaz,
I would suggest letting go of any grasping for those divine states you have experienced or envision for your future. As you do, and become content with what the divine has brought to you already in your life for you to learn from, and you will find greater peace and harmony and struggle less with emotional imbalance. Even the "lows" can have learning in them, if you stay present through them, in time what you need to know will be revealed. Although unpleasant, the lows will eventually pass too.
Every human being has the capacity to heal themselves and there can be many teachers along the way. As Dogboy says: "I don't have an Enlightenment Endgame in my sights, I'm loving the texture differences in each and every sit and that is enough for me."
Best of luck!
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DigitalYogi
Canada
34 Posts
Posted - Jan 25 2016 : 10:55:18 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Chaz,
I received mantra Diksha from Guru Siyag several years ago and my spiritual journey has been amazing to say the least.
Here is the initiation video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLrENHC4gHwWhen you are initiated and start mantra japa you may start to experience
spontaneous kriya:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH5WX5CdA9AI hope this helps!
Edited by - DigitalYogi on Jan 25 2016 11:01:52 PM
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts
Posted - Jan 28 2016 : 11:48:13 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hello Chaz
My approach lately is the opposite. There is a strong tendency to "guru-ize" certain wise people, and it is seen here that this habit needs breaking.
When introduced to the latest wise person who was immediately put on the guru pedestal, I shied away ... forcing myself to avoid his teaching and counsel for a month. I was not allowing myself to perceive him as guru. Even though there was a fairly strong attachment and desire to do just that. Simultaneous with his introduction into my life experience, was a noticeable calming of the raging bhakti which previously drove movement on the path. An unaccustomed peace and steadiness, with more inclination to tarry, go slow, and rest..
At this point, my exposure to him is rationed. As the need for exaltation into guru status decreases, there is more comfort in permitting unlimited access to his work. With sustained attention to the matter, this tendency to see certain people as gurus is being dropped. Replacing it is a quiet respect and honoring of the helpful suggestions provided.
In closing, a paragraph will be shared from Scott Kiloby's excellent essay on spiritual bypass, entitled - "When We're Spiritually Lulled and Dulled (and don't even know it)":
I'm not purporting to speak on behalf of humanity. I'm not trying to be some preachy authority. I'm just trying to piss you off a little bit or at least lovingly light a fire within you and keep the fire lit and sit with you until everything you and I have avoided comes to the surface and is set free. In this way we can love each other, but not in that clingy, needy way. No, in a mature way that allows each other to actually be who we really are, however that actually shows up, with total forgiveness and compassion for everything as it happens.
love
parvati
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jonesboy
USA
581 Posts
Posted - Jan 28 2016 : 1:44:51 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit jonesboy's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
I think the problem is people are not familiar with what a guru is.
Maybe this will help from the Kashmir Shiavism, Shiva Sutras.
The sutras are sort of naturally broken into three sections and paths relative to one's "potential". This is the "highest" one .
3.1. #257;tm#257; cittam
Individual being is the mind entangled in the wheel of repeated birth and death.
3.2. j?#257;na#7745; bandha#7717;
(For this limited individual), all knowledge is bondage.
3.3. kal#257;d#299;n#257;#7745; tattv#257;n#257;maviveko m#257;y#257;
Being unable to possess the undifferentiated knowledge of the thirty-one elements, you live in those elements, from kal#257; to p#7771;ithv#299; (earth), which are the expansion of the energy of illusion (m#257;y#257; #347;akti).
3.4. #347;ar#299;re sa#7745;h#257;ra#7717; kal#257;n#257;m
You must make all the circles (kal#257;s) in your body enter one into the other from gross to subtle.
3.5. n#257;#7693;#299;sa#7745;h#257;ra-bh#363;tajaya-bh#363;takaivalya-#8232; bh#363;tap#7771;ithaktv#257;ni
The merging of the movements of breathing, controlling the gross elements, diverting attention from all objective senses and directing it towards the center of the movement of the breath, and removing your consciousness from the grip of the elementary field, ?
3.6. moh#257;vara#7751;#257;tsiddhih
? these powers are brought into existence when a yogi?s consciousness is covered by the energy of illusion (m#257;y#257;).
3.7. mohajay#257;d anant#257;bhog#257;t sahajavidy#257;jaya#7717;
After conquering the field of illusion (m#257;y#257;) by destroying its many impressions, one attains the victory of the pure knowledge of consciousness.
3.8. j#257;gratdvit#299;yakarah
The waking state is another formation of his real nature of consciousness.
3.9. nartaka #257;tm#257;
The dancer in this field of universal dance is his self of universal consciousness.
3.10. ra#7749;go?ntar#257;tm#257;
The player is the internal soul.
3.11. prek#7779;ak#257;#7751;#299;ndriy#257;#7751;i
His own organs are spectators.
3.12. dh#299;va#347;#257;tsattvasiddhi#7717;
By means of a supreme intellect filled with awareness of the self, this yog#299; experiences that he is actually acting.
3.13. siddha#7717; svatantrabh#257;va#7717;
The state of absolute independence is already achieved.
3.14. yath#257; tatra tath#257;nyatra
This (absolute independence) is the same in the external world as it was in sam#257;dhi.
3.15. b#299;j#257;vadh#257;nam
Maintain breakless awareness on that supreme energy which is the seed of the universe.
3.16. #257;sanastha#7717; sukha#7745; hrade nimajjati
Seated in that real posture, he effortlessly dives in the ocean of nectar.
3.17. svam#257;tr#257;nirm#257;#7751;am#257;p#257;dayati
Experiencing that this objective world is the product of his subjective consciousness, he can create anything he desires.
3.18. vidy#257; ?vin#257;#347;e janmavin#257;#347;a#7717;
When his knowledge of the Self is permanently established, then birth (and death) are gone forever.
3.19. kavarg#257;di#7779;u m#257;he#347;vary#257;dy#257;#7717; pa#347;um#257;tara#7717;
In the world of letters, words and sentences, the eight energies of the Lord, who are the mothers of beasts (take control and hold him).
3.20. tri#7779;u caturtha#7745; tailavad#257;secyam
The fourth state (turya) must be expanded like oil so that it pervades the other three: waking, dreaming and deep sleep.
3.21. magna#7717; svacittena pravi#347;et
The yog#299; who is merged in his self must enter completely with his mind filled with great awareness.
3.22. pr#257;#7751;asam#257;c#257;re samadar#347;anam
When his breath begins to slowly move out toward the external state, then he also experiences the pervasion of God consciousness there.
3.23. madhye ?varaprasava#7717;
He does not experience the state of God consciousness in the center of these three states.
3.24. m#257;tr#257;svapratyayasa#7745;dh#257;ne na#7779;#7789;asya punarutth#257;nam
When a yog#299;, in coming out from sam#257;dhi, also attempts to maintain awareness of God consciousness in the objective world, then, even though his real nature of self is destroyed by the inferior generation of self-consciousness, he again rises in that supreme nature of the self.
3.25. #347;ivatulyo j#257;yate
He becomes just like #346;iva.
3.26. #347;ar#299;rav#7771;ittirvratam
His virtuous behavior is the maintenance of his body.
3.27. kath#257; japa#7717;
Ordinary talk of life is the recitation of mantra.
3.28. d#257;nam#257;tmaj?#257;nam
His only purpose for remaining in his body is to impart knowledge to others.
3.29. yo?vipastho j?#257;hetu#347;ca
The one who rules the wheel of energies becomes the cause of inserting knowledge in others.
3.30. #347;va#347;aktipracayo?sya vi#347;vam
For him, this universe is the embodiment of his collective energies.
3.31. sthitilayau
This universe is the expansion of his energy in objective impressions and in the dissolution of those impressions.
3.32. tatprav#7771;itt#257;vapyanir#257;sa#7717; sa#7745;vett#7771;ibh#257;v#257;t
Although he is determined in creating, protecting and destroying the universe, even then he is not separated from the real state of his subjectivity.
3.33. sukhadu#7717;khayorbahirmananam
He experiences his joy and his sadness just like an object, with ?this-consciousness? separate from his being.
3.34. tadvimuktastu keval#299;
Separated from pleasure and pain, he is established in real seclusion.
3.35. mohapratisa#7745;hatastu karm#257;tm#257;
The yog#299; whose God consciousness is destroyed by this state of illusion is dependent on his action.
3.36. bhedatirask#257;re sarg#257;ntarakarmatvam
He drives away the field of differentiated perceptions and enters into a new world of God consciousness.
3.37. kara#7751;a #347;akti#7717; svato?nubhav#257;t
The power of creation is the experience of every individual.
3.38. tripad#257;dyanupr#257;#7751;anam
Emerging from turya, insert the absolute bliss of that state into the waking, dreaming and deep sleep states and they will become one with that state of turya.
3.39. citta sthitivacchar#299;ra kara#7751;ab#257;hye#7779;u
This awareness of God consciousness should not only be infused in that state where one?s mind is established in one-pointedness but it should also be infused in the establishment of his body, in his organic actions and in the external objective world.
3.40. abhil#257;#7779;#257;dbahirgati#7717; sa#7745;v#257;hyasya
Due to the insatiable and insistent desire to fill the gap (in his nature), his flow and movement are toward the objective world, not subjective consciousness, and so he is carried from one birth to another.
3.41. tad#257;r#363;#7693;hapramitestatk#7779;ay#257;jj#299;va sa#7745;k#7779;aya#7717;
All desire vanishes in that fortunate person whose consciousness is established in his own real nature. For him the state of being a limited individual has ended.
3.42. bh#363;taka?cuk#299; tad#257; vimukto bh#363;ya#7717; patisama#7717; para#7717;
For him, the five elements are only coverings. At that very moment, he is absolutely liberated, supreme and just like #346;iva.
The text raises many interesting thoughts and ramifications. Implying in 3.29 that one can "insert knowledge" in others. And things like the universe is his energies in 3.31. Also, he becomes just like God/Siva in 3.25.
With regard to inserting knowledge:
Abhinavagupta in The Triadic Heart of Sutra states...
"The initiated one knows this supreme knowledge characterized by the Heart and which is given by the divinities of Bhairava who are within the Heart and who bring escape from the vibration of manifestation which leads to an obscuring of the Self, and are rather directed towards the supreme vibration which consists of the opening of the Self. These same divinities destroy the chief bond which is the state of contraction."
So your clearing away of obstructions would seem to directly go with destroying the bonds which cause the "state of contraction".
So it is more of a clearing away the obstructions rather than an inserting of anything new. Which leads one to understand a guru is much more than someone who just talks to you and if one can find one like that with a quick internet search.. please show me how.
Edited by - jonesboy on Jan 28 2016 1:51:23 PM
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Chaz
USA
129 Posts
Posted - Feb 01 2016 : 04:02:24 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Thank you all for your responses, always glad to share with you guys and receive feedback. There is much wisdom and compassion to be found here.
quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
The metaphor of the boat you use to cross the ocean is a familiar one to me. I have had a similar "vision." This is a kind of koan. Where are you going with the boat? What is the boat? What else is there? What is impermanent and what is permanent?
Hi Blanche,
Love your idea of the boat metaphor as a koan, and your take on it is also very relatable to my experience. It really just came up as the best way to describe how I felt as I was writing my last post. As I went through your questions and went a little deeper into the metaphor, my mind came up with a lot of detailed imagery to further relate to my experience metaphorically. But it was the very last question that hit home... Almost all of it is impermanent, the scenes pass, and the only thing permanent is the witness of these passing scenes. That was a nice way to point me back to the reality of it all. Thank you for that!
quote:
Originally posted by SeySorciere
I, too, sometimes despair of making progress and really wish I had one on one access to a physical Guru. It is a feeling of two steps forward, one step backward. But I keep going and all in all, I trust the path. Perhaps the only advice I can offer is one of Yogani's - one which I have to remind myself of every now and again, so as not to get caught up in mind games:
'"Do your practices daily like brushing your teeth - then forget everything and go out and live fully. "
Stop trying to be this or that or do this or that. Just do the practices and let everything else take care of itself.
Sey
Edit - P.S. You know what else? I may never reach some grand state of realization or Liberation without a master, but I am happy with the self-improvement I have been able to achieve reflected in my relationships to others. And that makes it all worth it.
Hi Sey,
Love the synchronicity, and it's very good to hear from you as well. I am glad we understand each other on the matter. But I feel you are right in that we should continue to do the best we can with our practices and live our lives fully. Not finding the perfect guru won't stop me from doing that, or stop me from being grateful for what practices have done for me already, and it certainly won't stop me from persevering forward with my desire for That. I know progress is always being made, as that is the evolutionary motion of life. For me it really is less about finding someone to help me progress, and more about finding someone who can help me see past the barriers on my path of progression so I don't stay stuck for very long. There is a sense of urgency in this for me. Not to rush along the path, but to be in a better state to help and serve others around me with more clarity and love.
quote:
Originally posted by Ecdyonurus
Hi Chaz, I appreciate your post, very profound and honest. Thank you.
If your inner guru is clearly telling you that time has come for you to find a guru, then I would suggest to follow that. But I would avoid going to the first guru you find, and just stay open and wait for the right one to appear on your path.
Did you already come across a guru that attracted you? That would be a clear sign too that you have to make such step.
Wish you all the best.
Hi Ecdyonurus,
Thank you. No, I can't say I have come across one that claims to be a guru that I specifically felt compelled to seek out. I have read about a few, but I would certainly have to meet them in person first to know how I feel and I'm always skeptical of the ones with the big names and fame. Usually they often make the strongest claims, especially on how things should or shouldn't be done and that doesn't always sit well with me. I definitely agree with you on not chasing the first one I find. But I am open to the idea that maybe someone I've met in this life is at that point where they can give me the help I'm seeking, but not as a traditional guru with a following which is absolutely fine.
quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
I recognized in him what I was longing for and that was not on a personal level ... looking back, he was my mirror. I talked sometimes with him if I was caught in my mind again. It helped. He pointed me back, gave me tools. Never a solution.
Thank you so much for sharing Charliedog. Your experience with your guru sounds beautiful and resonates deeply with me. It is exactly what I am trying to describe I am looking for in a connection with a guru.
Also, yes perhaps there is some aspect of my mind that is telling me a guru is necessary to reach whatever end it believes in, but on a deeper level it is more of an intuitive feeling of needing a little spiritual help. A light bright enough to help me see my own obstructions (to my light) a little more clearly. I hope that makes sense.
quote:
Originally posted by Dogboy
Hi Chaz, welcome back!
If I remember right from your early posts, you're relatively young right? (mid 20's?) Well you have that going for you; this is an important decision as the right guru may propel you forward and the wrong one can really mangle things worse than you believe they are. Do you really fall back to square one when you stumble? I think not; keeping up with daily practices assures you are moving forward regardless of occasional missteps.
I believe youthfulness is somewhat impatient and desire burns strongly. I'm in my fifties and have only been with AYP for a couple of years, so this Guru In You approach completely satisfies my spiritual thirst. Then again, I don't have an Enlightenment Endgame in my sights, I'm loving the texture differences in each and every sit and that is enough for me. I wish you well in your quest of the heart and let us know how it goes.
Hi Dogboy,
Thank you. Yes, young in my early 20's. I'll be turning 22 at the end of May.
What I was trying to get at with the falling back to square one comment, is that even after feeling as though I had seen past thoughts and behaviors that cause a lot of suffering, I could still easily get caught up with them having (seemingly) the same intensity as before. Sure, sometimes I get less intensely caught up, but other times I could even be more intensely caught up in them. So in that sense it very much feels like back to square one. I know there is no definite measure of where we are exactly on the path, so I didn't mean back to square one in the sense of progression, but yes back to square one in dealing with the blockages and seeing that you haven't really overcome it afterall.
And yea same, no endgame in sight over here either. But I won't pretend like I don't have an aim that drives me along the path. For me that aim is a state of being, an original state of being that has become obscured. Stripping away all that is false and coming to know That more fully, and become ever more intimate with it, that's why I started on this path. Sure it may not be the end of it, in fact I believe that's when a new life will begin, and the path will take a different turn with an even greater purpose. That's how I see it at least.
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
Hello Chaz
quote:
Originally posted by Chaz
I do expect finding a master will make things much clearer to me.
What is it that you are unclear about?
Hi BlueRaincoat,
What I meant by that is the clarity to see the light, the Truth, beyond my own obstructions. Hope that makes sense.
quote:
Originally posted by sunyata
What are your practices as of right now? I have a feeling that you may be overloading.
Something you can try- Next time you are going through a high state. How about you remind yourself that this too shall pass? Don?t push the experience away, be with it. But don?t cling on to it either and same when a low state comes up. At this time you are letting your states of experience, pull you here and there.
Is Samyama part of your practice? You should have some degree of inner silence by now. This is a wonderful practice in letting go. Letting go everything- states of experience, action, thought and so on.
Have you tried self inquiry? This will help you see through the mind
No one can give us enlightenment. We have to do our own work and dissolve our blockages.
Self Pace, Stay Grounded, Practice and Enjoy Life!
Sunyata
Hi Sunyata,
I don't know if I'm overloading or not, but I can tell you I have backed off practices several times with little improvement. In fact, I feel better off meditating than not. For several months I fell off my routine, now I'm slowly rebuilding my practice. So far I am just doing mantra meditation 10 mins twice a day. Feeling better with that than I was the months I was not practicing.
The ecstatic states are not what I'm after. The spiritual highs are nice and all but not having them all the time is not the issue. It's really just that I've experienced an expanded state of being that felt more like "home" than my normal ego-dominated state. The issue comes from the desire to establish myself more in my "home", but often getting kicked out by myself. Lol hope that makes some sense.
Samyama is a part of my practice mostly informally, but was also formally part of my sitting practice. Now I'm taking my time with it but I will be adding it back into my routine soon. And yes I have tried several forms of self-inquiry. It is very tricky with me, and it hasn't worked as well as I'd hoped. I have a strong mind I guess you could say.
Also, no desire for any enlightenment handouts from a guru. Just looking for some help in seeing my way through.
quote:
Originally posted by dv2014
Perhaps a question to ponder is - Are you looking for a Guru for personally adjusted tools and practical details of applying them along the path, or more for a loving emotional support?
All the very best to you in your path
Hi dv,
I resonate with much of what you said on cultivating a relationship with an Ishta, that has been a powerful force in my sadhana. Not necessarily looking for a guru for technical stuff, much of that I have already found on my own. Loving emotional support, yes I can say I am looking for that. Also the support of their Awareness/Light/Clarity where I am lacking in those aspects.
@Lalow - Good to hear from you as well. Samyama and Ishta are both very powerful practices in my experience. Thank you. And I agree the mind doesn't need to be fixed, but it does need to be transcended. That is where I find myself stuck in the sinking boat, caught up in mind delusions (the holes).
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
I'll be your guru, Chaz. I've attained perfect God-realization. Don't mind my muddy past. I'm now clean as a whistle and without impurities. Swear to God.
Just kidding, bro.
Stop trying to be perfect, kid. You already are. All this life is is perfection becoming more perfect (I wrote a blog about that paradox recently in my AYP for Recovery thread).
Lol great, I finally found a guru! I expect you'll get me to enlightenment in no time.
Seriously though, it isn't really about being perfect. What I want to make clear is I'm not trying to fight a battle against my ego to make myself into this perfect person. I love the individuality and uniqueness my ego gives me, including all its challenges. Who else is gonna go out in the world and be this same Chaz? So I don't think there's anything wrong with the ego. But as you know, the ego is just a way to express our boundless Self in a 3D world. But it is not what we are. Now you can imagine the frustration of knowing that intellectually, and at times having felt that reality, but still getting caught up in believing the delusions of the ego. When you realize there is more to life than the cage you've been in, and you've seen outside it, but you still for some reason won't get out... It starts to feel like maybe you need a little help. I don't know if that's the best way I can describe it but I hope it makes sense to you.
@Anthem- Thank you for sharing. Your post resonates with me and brought some needed insight on the lows I'm quick to get upset about. I feel you are right in that the Divine has brought many tools and teachers in my life already to learn from.
@DigitalYogi - Hi DY, glad to know you're experiencing much growth with your guru. Wishing you the best on your path.
quote:
Originally posted by parvati9
I'm not purporting to speak on behalf of humanity. I'm not trying to be some preachy authority. I'm just trying to piss you off a little bit or at least lovingly light a fire within you and keep the fire lit and sit with you until everything you and I have avoided comes to the surface and is set free. In this way we can love each other, but not in that clingy, needy way. No, in a mature way that allows each other to actually be who we really are, however that actually shows up, with total forgiveness and compassion for everything as it happens.
love
parvati
Hi Parvati,
I definitely see where you're coming from with your approach. I think the quote sums it all up perfectly for me, and is beautifully said. Thanks for sharing.
I understand some are under the impression that I'm saying I feel it is necessary to have a guru in the traditional dogmatic sense. That is not the case. Perhaps the term guru or master brings up a lot of preconceived notions and may have been incorrect for the purposes of describing what I feel is necessary yet lacking on my path, I just felt it was most familiar for everyone. So my apologies for the confusion. I'll try to better explain my experience and what it is I'm looking for in a "Guru."
I was VERY satisfied with the guru is in you approach of AYP in the beginning. I've always been a rebel at heart, I don't like people telling me what to do or how to do it. I'm the type of guy to go my own way and screw what the authority has to say. Now as time went on and practices really started kicking things up, I noticed there was a catch 22 happening. Yes, on one end there was much improvement when it came to being aware of more positive aspects of being. I noticed more stillness, a sense of universal love, ecstatic energy, and so on. BUT I also noticed little improvement when it came to the obstructions themselves. The neurotic thinking, problematic tendencies, emotional issues, etc that all originate from misidentification did not lessen. Maybe at times they did, but it was never permanent. At times they even were intensified.
So I found myself in a very complicated and frustrating position. Here I was getting a good taste of the reality that Yogani and many other spiritual teachers speak about, and yet I was still very much caught up in ignorance of that reality at the same time. No matter how intensely I could feel all the love and bliss, I could just as intensely feel all the opposite. It starts to feel like you're living this double life, like your being is divided. Here and there you could strongly feel awake in Truth, and next moment be completely blinded by the lies of the ego.
Filling my consciousness with that Truth-Awareness-Bliss and making it a permanent experience in my daily life, that to me is a big part of what this is all about. I've been going in circles for quite a while now. These expanded states of being were not enough to break through the obstructions that kept them from becoming permanent. They just became a high followed by a low. So I began to get fed up with it all. Despite my best efforts to see through the obstructions, it always seemed I could get caught up in them again very easily and almost automatically. Despite having peaceful meditations and moments thereafter, I could still say and do hurtful things in an instant reaction. All the love and unity I've been fortunate to feel has not brought me above being petty and defensive. It just got to a point where I felt I was causing more trouble than I was trying to fix. I want to share a higher form of love with the people around me, but it seems my inner demons prevent me from doing that, and instead I would battle other people's demons with my own. It's a damaging cycle of wanting something better for myself and the people around me, yet still stooping to low levels and adding more fuel to the suffering we felt.
There is a strong tendency to get caught in ignorance and ego delusion, and sometimes I just can't help it. This is when I began to feel like something extra was needed. I realized I wanted to find someone who has seen past all the things I'm still caught up in. I wanted a connection to someone whose consciousness is firmly rooted in the Truth I was seeking, and never loses sight of that like I so often do. I don't wish to achieve any grand state of spiritual highness through finding a guru. I just long to be identified with the Divine for the rest of my time here on this Earth and beyond. A life where I am absolutely absorbed in Divine Awareness in every moment, seeing it in all experiences, all people, and all things, is the only life worth living to me. So this longing is for someone whose already at that point, beyond the obstructions and truly living with that Awareness. I felt deep down that in finding a person, or even people, whom did not have Truth obscured by their obstructions, maybe they could share Truth with me and help me see past my own obstructions enough to have Truth become more dominant in my life experience.
So that is why I found myself at this point. I hope I cleared some confusion up from my last post as to what I'm seeking in a guru spiritual helper. Thank you all again for your responses. I gained a lot of insight from all of you.
Much Love,
Chaz
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sunyata
USA
1388 Posts
Posted - Feb 01 2016 : 08:10:19 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
The issue comes from the desire to establish myself more in my "home", but often getting kicked out by myself. Lol hope that makes some sense.
Hi Chaz,
The only way to be "home" is to say "yes" to the feeling of getting kicked out. Yes to every feeling and sensation. Being with the highs will help with being with the lows. The feeling of kicked out just wants to be seen.
Sunyata
Edited by - sunyata on Feb 01 2016 08:34:41 AM
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Charliedog
1533 Posts
Posted - Feb 01 2016 : 08:47:54 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Charliedog's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
A light bright enough to help me see my own obstructions (to my light) a little more clearly. I hope that makes sense.
Wishing you a mirror, wherein you can see again and again that you already are home, the cage is wide open
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Dogboy
USA
1552 Posts
Posted - Feb 01 2016 : 11:47:14 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
There is a strong tendency to get caught in ignorance and ego delusion, and sometimes I just can't help it. This is when I began to feel like something extra was needed. I realized I wanted to find someone who has seen past all the things I'm still caught up in. I wanted a connection to someone whose consciousness is firmly rooted in the Truth I was seeking, and never loses sight of that like I so often do. I don't wish to achieve any grand state of spiritual highness through finding a guru. I just long to be identified with the Divine for the rest of my time here on this Earth and beyond. A life where I am absolutely absorbed in Divine Awareness in every moment, seeing it in all experiences, all people, and all things, is the only life worth living to me. So this longing is for someone whose already at that point, beyond the obstructions and truly living with that Awareness. I felt deep down that in finding a person, or even people, whom did not have Truth obscured by their obstructions, maybe they could share Truth with me and help me see past my own obstructions enough to have Truth become more dominant in my life experience.
Chaz, I have pseudo-envy () of your devotion at such a young age, for you have strong Self awareness, an open heart, and decades upon decades to have this quest play out. Your generation will have life expectancies into the 90s I imagine; with a yoga-centric lifestyle, probably decades beyond that. Your desire for an advisor is now seeded in your center and will sprout and bloom; your helper will make themselves known, I am confident of that. Find yourself an asana studio that resonates with you; mingling with other yogis may help in unexpected ways. edit: wording
Edited by - Dogboy on Feb 01 2016 11:50:21 AM
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts
Posted - Feb 01 2016 : 6:38:12 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Chaz
Please forgive this for being inarticulate; these aren't easy ideas to frame with suitable words. You've managed to be very convincing and sincere. And you are, imo, at the most incredible place on the path, where the conundrum is thoroughly contemplated. No, it doesn't feel wonderful because you are so caught up in it. Just a little further and you might feel like resting, as you gaze back on the mental wilderness you've left behind. This bit may be horifically excruciating from the spiritual standpoint, but also where you will most likely experience the greatest breakthroughs. Sometimes a little spiritual dynamite is required, that's the bhakti revving up.
You say you long to be identified with the Divine. Okay, but how are you defining the Divine? Herein perhaps lies the problem, and why it may be necessary to seek the guidance of a spiritual helper to sort. It is wise to not take seriously mental cues or past conclusions regarding the Divine. We tend to associate past experiences of ecstasy, rapture, truth, clarity or bliss with the Divine. Unlike these words, our true nature, which is Divine, doesn't readily translate into anything the mind can hold onto. No words, no concepts will suffice. We can only be, and through being without pretense or obstruction, in that we know what we are.
love
parvati
edit/revision & content reduction
Edited by - parvati9 on Feb 01 2016 11:13:46 PM
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Holy
796 Posts
Posted - Feb 01 2016 : 9:24:25 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Holy's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Chaz,
it is always good to witness the presence of a living realized human. This alone may change everything, as it has for me. It is sweet to hear from others, but it is something else, if you partake of the enlightenement of someone who is already established in it.
You have already good clarity, the only aspect missing is its continuity, about which you are very much aware of. This aspect can be easily handled by practices, good words from others etc. Seeing a living realized example in flesh and by that seeing what is possible for you is something else. It will not only confirm what is already clear, but especially give you an intense taste of its greater potential in being, experiencing and expressing. Having a taste like this will leave an imprint, that remains as a seed, making it a living graspable reality, something that no words from others can do. Whatever has been witnessed here in other realized masters have become a practical reality that started to express itself like a gift of the graced ones.
The indian tradition of getting the darshan of the guru is not a concept, nor raising anyone to a pedestal, but a physical transaction of the life energies and sensual perceptions, planting a seed in your body-mind to get access to the beauties of the realized. It is not by chance, that many yogic and vedic scriptures regard the guru as the primary cause for enlightenment and everything else as support.
It is my own observation, that most realizeds display qualities of their own gurus and not of other gurus. To get the grace of a guru, you cannot go visit them with crossed arms and a facial look like "lets see, what you are any good of". It is very much important to be pure, honest, free of thoughts, open and in full tune with the realized including doing what he/she is saying. Then things can happen to you no practice or words from others can cause.
I am very thankful for all those different gurus and masters, and for shure some of them are the main cause for all the paradise that is happening here since years. At the same time due to having had continues sharings of the enlightened's overflows, that all is possible here too.
Once getting the darshan, the experienced impression becomes your link to more direct and intense contact beyond time/space. Over youtube you can also start having a taste, also by practicing the tecniques given by that someone. This is the cheap way of coming into contact with the guru. Still the physical contact is something else completely.
Peace friend and happy practice!
