Ananda
3103 Posts
Posted - Aug 07 2015 : 12:11:13 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Ananda's Homepage Edit Topic Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Message Delete Topic
Hi all,
I enjoy watching a porn movie every now and then like many others do... But recently it has been so painful to watch that stuff... Most of the women I see I cannot but feel compassion towards... Other than the fact that this or that woman is someone's daughter, sister or mother... Late but better than never I am realizing that most of these women are doing this either out of ignorance or by being forced into it. I love a woman's body like the next guy but this peak show... It feels like a crime just to participate in it from now on and encouraging such an industry. These beautiful woman wouldn't be doing or be forced into what they're doing unless there was a demand for this stuff. And people like myself are the ones who encourage it by watching porn.
I used to think to myself... Since I am not in a relationship right now and I don't want to hurt others by engaging in passing sexual encounters.. Then blowing off steam while watching a porn movie every now and then is an okay step. But now I realize it's causing pain also... It's more karma under the belt. Who wants to hurt himself?!
Hope some take my words into consideration... There are no hookers or prostitutes... Only beautiful beings with a string of bad luck that lead them to that road. Everyone can change and start new and fresh of course.
Much love to all
Ananda
ak33
Canada
229 Posts
Posted - Aug 07 2015 : 09:15:04 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Spot on. I've struggled with porn for many years now, I find it an absolutely sickening concept. That being said, I don't condemn myself for indulging in it once in a while, because that doesn't really help and I have my own defilements to deal with. But yeah, once you realize that these are human beings who just want to be happy, maybe just got unlucky, the whole perspective changes.
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Ananda
3103 Posts
Posted - Aug 07 2015 : 09:40:14 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Ananda's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
No dear, please do not condemn yourself. If it's a big problem for you, just try and mellow it down...
Like any addiction... In case you are watching 2 or 4 times a week... Cut them in half... Slowly but surely bad habits go... I've been cutting through my own bad habits for many years now... Some vanished and others got cut down to less than half even... I wish you all the best on the art of disciplining your own self. Use the gentle approach please.
Much love
Ananda
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ak33
Canada
229 Posts
Posted - Aug 07 2015 : 10:24:51 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Thanks for your kind words
It used to be an everyday thing, but its down to once a week at most. Haha I feel you, cutting the bad habits that run deep takes years and years of fighting. I've also found that the gentle approach works much better, but in the end its still a fight LOL
Edit: I've found that getting actively involved in daily life and spreading love to others lessens the need for these things. Is your experience the same?
Edited by - ak33 on Aug 07 2015 10:26:35 AM
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Ananda
3103 Posts
Posted - Aug 07 2015 : 10:33:30 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Ananda's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Very true It is.. Just taking the chances when they are offered and enjoying the play...
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts
Posted - Aug 07 2015 : 10:40:20 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
In my case, porn/masturbation "happen" when I am alone. In my current life I am almost never really alone, so I don't feel the need for that anymore. But in the past I had bad phases of addiction, and in those years I did not have many people around me. So my experience is in line with yours, ak33. By the way, still waiiting for new podcasts from you and Carson.
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AYPforum
351 Posts
Posted - Aug 07 2015 : 11:46:38 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts
Posted - Aug 07 2015 : 2:28:48 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Porn is a losing proposition. It overly externalizes what is meant to be kept internal.
There is no sense in moderating it. Renunciation is the way to go, if you're a serious yogi. Just my opinion.
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ak33
Canada
229 Posts
Posted - Aug 07 2015 : 3:37:29 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
I've tried your approach over the years and I have not succeeded. Perhaps I lack the mental stamina/my attachments are too strong. Regardless, such a hard-nosed approach has the problem of generating ill will and friction, which become problematic in long run. I think your approach would work in an intensive meditation setting, where I can immediately redirect that energy into meditation 9-10 hours a day. Another way would be to stay extremely busy in daily life, because after all the energy has to go somewhere. I do think its incorrect to say someone is not serious because they choose a gentler way of dealing with attachments, if in the long run my approach turns out to be more successful and causes less anguish. I'd just like to point out that both approaches have a prerequisite of a stable meditation practice.
Edit: I actually do try to refrain from watching porn. If I transgress I just move on and try not to feel guilt or shame. Does that count as renunciation?
Edited by - ak33 on Aug 07 2015 4:04:16 PM
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Ananda
3103 Posts
Posted - Aug 07 2015 : 4:20:12 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Ananda's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Dear Ak, just take it easy. Push gently and deal with whatever comes naturally step by step... Slowly but surely... Everything in moderation. You own nothing but what you have among ur hands right now. Take it as it comes and as u said don't be hard on urself. Renunciation isn't necessary at all. The enlightened ones I know are mostly married and have active sex lives... And trust me when I say that i've met many renunciates.... Some of them are also enlightened of course... There is good here and there.
Much love to all
Edited by - Ananda on Aug 07 2015 4:30:38 PM
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts
Posted - Aug 07 2015 : 5:20:47 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by ak33
I do think its incorrect to say someone is not serious because they choose a gentler way of dealing with attachments, if in the long run my approach turns out to be more successful and causes less anguish.
Are you saying watching porn moderately is more gentle than renouncing porn completely? That's absurd. That's like saying drinking alcohol moderately is more gentle than not drinking at all. It's a non sequitur.
If I was trying to launch an anti-porn campaign, I could see the harshness in that, but renunciation--meaning a complete letting go--is the essence of being gentle. There is no friction or resistance. The resistance and friction comes from the tug of war between lower vibrations and sexual desire when watching porn.
Ejaculation is a powerful, explosive activity, and when the seed is released based on arousal by a distant object, that can create a lot of friction in the akashic field, especially if you have many people trying to reach the same object, which is exactly what porn does: attract multiple users to a single source.
Nature wastes nothing, so the released energy will be absorbed by someone or something as it travels across the akashic field, and at the lower vibrations, the entities are usually not so friendly.
It's not really a matter of morality as much as efficiency. Brahmacharya is the cultivation and preservation of sexual energy for divine purposes. With porn, the energy is not preserved, but rather scattered in an inefficient way. With dogmatic celibacy, the energy may be preserved, but suppressing it in a harsh way still creates problems and denies the cultivation aspect.
Healthy brahmacharya is channeling the sexual energy in efficient, benevolent ways. For example, the more I play guitar and dive into the creative process, the more I directly feel and realize that I am using orgasmic impulses to improve the quality of the music. There are many other ways to channel the energy, and recreational ejaculation is not necessary.
Again, I'm not anti-porn. If that was the case, I wouldn't have had lunch this week with an AA buddy who makes his living off producing porn. He knows I'm not in favor of porn, but I don't preach against it in a prohibitionist way. Same with drugs/alcohol. I can still hang out around the scene, without condemning it. Yoga allows me to be in the world, but not of it.
So, renunciation, as I understand and define it, involves no harsh effort whatsoever. Rather, it is letting go of one pattern in favor of an energetically superior, refined one.
Transformation. Transcendence. Voil?.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts
Posted - Aug 07 2015 : 5:46:00 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
P.S. In the appendix of the samyama book, the sutra renunciation = destruction of the seeds of illusion, yielding liberation.
We can renounce porn and still have an active sex life through tantra.
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ak33
Canada
229 Posts
Posted - Aug 07 2015 : 5:49:44 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
So am I right in assuming your approach is to redirect the energy to a more energetically super process? I am speculating because you didn't actually give a practical method of dealing with urges. Letting go sounds really nice on paper, but I'm sure you know from experience that it is not so simple. As for my argument being contradictory, the edit in my post clarifies that I do in fact try to refrain, rather then setting a limit on how many times to watch porn. If I transgress, I transgress. I move on. But is it more gentle? If you are able to avoid ill will and aversion, then yes. Moderation is in fact better. Again, I have serious doubts from experience on whether cold cut renunciation is as clean as you say.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts
Posted - Aug 07 2015 : 6:27:36 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Good point. Letting go often involves grabbing onto something else. So we need to grab onto stillness in action, which is more refined.
But just to reiterate something, and that is: watching porn is intrinsically harsh. That's the point you seem to be missing. It doesn't matter how much cotton candy sentimentality, nobleness, or lack of "ill will" you superimpose onto the harshness, the activity itself still contains friction by default. Same with alcohol. You can mix a drink to make it sweeter (Rum and Coke), but you're not removing the toxic alcohol. You're just covering it up.
Since engaging in porn is intrinsically harsh, how could letting it go make things harsher? It couldn't. If I'm burning alive in flames, and I run out of the fire, I will by default put myself in a place with less heat, unless I ran into an even more intense fire, in which case that would not be transformation or transcendence, but regression and de-evolution. Renunciation is not regression, but rather forward progress.
One of the more foolish pedantic phrases that gets thrown around is: All things in moderation. That is an absurd statement with faulty logic. If that was a genuine principle to live by, then we could say, "Rape small children in moderation" because "Rape small children" falls under the umbrella of "All things." What is much more reasonable and effective to say is: Some things in moderation, and some things not at all.
Some things are not worth moderating in any capacity whatsoever, and are much better dissolved completely.
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ak33
Canada
229 Posts
Posted - Aug 07 2015 : 6:44:43 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
You make good points. Definitely moderation in some things are extremely harsh intrinsically vs. others. So I suppose you have to compare the aversion you generate from a cold turkey approach vs. indulging in the activity in question. Which is worse internally? I'm trying to find a practical method to dealing with these things. So far your approach of redirecting energies into creativity activities and engagement in daily life (all of these with a simultaneous meditation practice) seem to be the most effective. I must add that one must make a conscious effort to abstain, but be gentle if you transgress.
Sorry for taking your post slightly off topic Ananda.
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Ananda
3103 Posts
Posted - Aug 08 2015 : 12:33:11 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Ananda's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Way off topic. What does rape has to do with all this. Going cold turkey if manageable is great but not everyone is so strong... This is why a gentle approach is needed... Isn't tantra another gentle approach also... Not everyone can just like that abstain from ejaculation after a lifetime... In the case of porn... If you read on the net... Some people are really addicted to this stuff like it's a drug... And are having one hell of a time letting go... Maybe people who watch only once or twice a week can let go because they are not addicted... But some watch hours of porn on end... This is why a gentle approach is recommendable or otherwise you'll end up with someone who is self loathing and really having trouble with himself... As with all drug addicts... They cut down on their doses and medicate and eventually they are capable of letting go... I honor your experience dear Bodhi and respect it but not everyone is capable enough.
On another subject... I shared this topic from a place of compassion... And from a dual approach... If i am to take my stand in the non dual... Then there is no Sin. Really! And it's okay not to hit oneself on the head for watching porn... But i am against all extremes and prefer to use my non dual realization into the beingness i am with all that is. One only hurts or does good to one own Self.
Love&peace,
Ananda
Edited by - Ananda on Aug 08 2015 12:46:44 PM
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts
Posted - Aug 08 2015 : 12:52:10 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
I was merely using an extreme example to illustrate that some behaviors are probably not worth moderating, but rather let go of completely.
Hey, we're all works in progress here! I'm rooting for everyone's gentle release of whatever they want to be free of. To each his/her own.
And I agree that it is senseless to beat ourselves up about our shortcomings and perceived wrongdoings. We just have to learn from our mistakes, which are inevitable and actually blessings, and then move forward.
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Ananda
3103 Posts
Posted - Aug 08 2015 : 1:07:02 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Ananda's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
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ak33
Canada
229 Posts
Posted - Aug 08 2015 : 2:42:22 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
I feel like we've reached a compromise, each person must adapt his own approach according to his mental strength/level of attachment/disposition.
Good luck gentlemen, thank you for the discussion
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joseph
117 Posts
Posted - Aug 13 2015 : 5:41:17 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
What is helpful is to do a short meditation of three minutes or so when you feel the impulse to watch porn or have a drink or a smoke or whatever. Feel what is happening and watch the energy within, the impulse, exactly what is happening, without any condemnation.
Then at the end of the meditation if the urge is still there you can go ahead, but the urge won't be as strong as it was when it first arose. Each time you do this you get stronger and it gets weaker. This is more effective than saying "I need to renounce because it's wrong", because you're getting to the very heart of the problem, the urge itself, seeing it and understanding it's mechanism. And the energy redirection will happen quite naturally.
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ak33
Canada
229 Posts
Posted - Aug 13 2015 : 7:03:03 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
I'm going to try this, thanks. I've done something like this in the past but I don't remember whether it worked. Will update.
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Ananda
3103 Posts
Posted - Sep 24 2015 : 1:31:07 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Ananda's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Sadly, I failed at this. It feels like being a hypocrite at one point and okay at another. I have no self guilt but think it's best if I didn't fail at it... Yet here I am... Hopefully in the future I would succeed... I'll let go for now.
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BillinL.A.
USA
375 Posts
Posted - Sep 24 2015 : 3:06:50 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
I'm in the same boat Ananda in many ways and it just helps immeasurably to have someone like you give voice to the struggle.
Most of my progress comes when I do what you just said and "...let it go for now." Keeping our personalities out of it if we can lets us at least try to dispassionately regard the desires. I squeal to Divine Mother sometimes and sooner or later She placates me in some way. I think we're supposed to do the same to our little-kid-personalities and shut 'em up with fulfilled desires now and then while progressing in our spiritual efforts.
Take care guy!
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Ananda
3103 Posts
Posted - Sep 24 2015 : 11:12:25 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Ananda's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
All good Thks man! U2
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arjunatheyogasamurai
USA
3 Posts
Posted - Mar 03 2016 : 7:51:16 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Thank you all for the fascinating discussion topic. It has provided me food for thought about my own habits and behavior.
quote:
originally posted by Ecdyonurus
In my case, porn/masturbation "happen" when I am alone. In my current life I am almost never really alone, so I don't feel the need for that anymore. But in the past I had bad phases of addiction, and in those years I did not have many people around me. So my experience is in line with yours, ak33. By the way, still waiiting for new podcasts from you and Carson.
Ananda, I am curious if you are coupling the act of watching porn with the act of masturbation. Ecdyonurus' comment associated them and I think that it is often inferred that they are one and the same but I would say that each are distinct. That said, the assumption, perhaps unfairly, is that those involved with porn are being exploited for the benefit of the consumer or the audience who indulges in the viewing of the porn.
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colours
Sweden
108 Posts
Posted - Feb 25 2017 : 09:24:46 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi.
Interesting discussion. I do watch porn now and then, maybe one or two times per week. I find it hard to have any form of orgasm without the outer stimuli of watching porn... But after reading about tantra I had the insight that maybe sex is not about having orgasm at all, and if we are supposed to stay in front of orgasm in tantra, then maybe it is acctually a good thing that I almost can not have orgasm without watching porn, when masturbating.
(Also, I have actually never had real sex with a partner. But I do not miss it either. I am fine this way on my own.)
About morality and porn... It is legally to watch porn based on that the persons involved are doing it out of free will, and are not too young. I understand that it is hard to know if it is done by free will sometimes, but if there is any doubt about the persons age or of the free will: don't watch.
Maybe we are better of with out porn, but maybe in a perfect world...
It is my current thoughts on a rather private matter.
/colours
