Fundamental Point of Nonduality

[Kirtanman]

quote:Originally posted by Christi

Hi Alwayson,

 

quote:An image viewed in a mirror, does not affect the mirror. A crystal ball placed on a red cloth is not affected by the color.

The impure mind similarly does not affect the primordial purity of That.

Do not be confused by self-inquiry of Ramana Maharishi or other modern nonduality teachings.

 

quote:
Do you know how many posts on this forum alone are about understanding self-inquiry?

To call Ramana Maharishi confusing is not a radical position

Yes, you are right. Direct self-inquiry teachings such as those offered by Ramana Maharshi can be confusing for many, and even dangerous, spinning people in circles that they may otherwise have avoided. In fact Yogani dedicated a large part of his book on Self-inquiry to just this aspect of the teaching, pointing out the dangers involved and how to avoid them.

Unfortunately, these days there are a rising number of teachers touting pure self-inquiry, without any understanding of these dangers. When a practitioner is ready, self-inquiry can be a useful practice, but only for those who are ripe. It is spiritual practice which makes the fruit ripe and ready to fall from the tree. Self inquiry is the falling from the tree.

Ultimately there is no such thing as impure mind and pure mind, for everything is seen in it's prestine purity. With self-inquiry, at first the distinction is made between what is pure and what is impure, then there is a resting in the original purity of mind to the exclusion of all else. Eventually, even that distinction is seen to be duality, and it falls away too.

Christi

Hi Christi,

Good to see you!



I find the teachings of Ramana Maharshi to be powerful, clear and effective.

I don't think Yogani was criticizing Ramana as much as certain neo-Advaitins, who say there is nothing to do, at all. I actually can't think of the last time I heard anyone say this, which may be a bit of a testament to how effective the "just do nothing" approach actually is.



And, please remember: even the Yoga Sutras and Shiva Sutras talk about high, medium and low readiness levels. Higher readiness-level practitioners can just hear the truth (we are formless awareness, ever-free of the forms occurring within our true nature), and be liberated into the fulfilled conscious that was obscured by identification with mental constructs (vikalpas).

Medium readiness-level practitioners were said to need to start with inquiry, and lower-level practitioners were said to need to start with form practices (pranayama, meditation, etc.).

In our modern societies, because we're so externalized, most of us likely will benefit most from starting with form practices, such as spinal breathing and deep meditation (try to imagine, if you care to {anyone reading}, just how much louder, faster and externalized life is now, compared to, say, the 2nd Century B.C.E, when the Yoga Sutras are said to have been written).

This doesn't mean we're at a "lower readiness level"; just more externalized, due to the dynamics of modern society.

I started there; the result is the same.

However, some can start with just hearing the truth, and some can start with just self-inquiry.

There is nothing wrong, and nothing dangerous, about either approach.

If one isn't ready, they simply won't work, is all.

Rather than "dangerous"; I would say "possibly more work than without supporting practices", would be more accurate.

I do agree with Yogani that cultivating the witness first is a much smoother and more effective approach the doing only self-inquiry, but direct self-inquiry is still a proven method for realizing enlightenment (example: Nisargadatta Maharaj).

Just a bit of an alternate view, based on my experience, for you and anyone reading.

Wholeheartedly,

Kirtanman

[alwayson2]

Or you use meditation and pranayama AFTER you realize nonduality to obtain rainbow body.

[manigma]

quote:Originally posted by alwayson2

Or you use meditation and pranayama AFTER you realize nonduality to obtain rainbow body.

Whats the point of this realization if one still wants to obtain something?

Meditation and Pranayama become natural after realizatation.

Only deluded ones desire to obtain something.

I was told this by Master Rose in my garden.

I guess you have a different meaning for Rainbow body.

As per my knowledge, Rainbow body is the name of a process that happens a few days before (or during) the Mahaparinirvana (final extinction).

In this process all the 7 bodies of the realized one are released and Karma is totally extinguished.  This process when seen by eyes is very beautiful as the emission of 7 bodies is seen in 7 colors and thus the name Rainbow body.

[alwayson2]

thats not rainbow body at all

But to answer your question, the drive to obtain rainbow body comes from compassion to help infinite sentient beings.  

I do know the REAL methods to achieve rainbow body.  I also had a theory that the AYP star could also be used to acheive rainbow body, but that was a pet theory of mine based on some vague similarities to the real practice.

[manigma]

quote:Originally posted by alwayson2
But to answer your question, the drive to obtain rainbow body comes from compassion to help infinite sentient beings.  

I do know the REAL methods to achieve rainbow body.

Compassion is a by-product of realization.

That is why the 7 bodies are released at Mahaparinirvana... the ultimate compassion that goes on working eternally.

I don't think there are any "methods" to achieve it.

The only method is to give up all methods. - Master Rose

Well you can't attain Rainbow Body unless you reach the 7th body... which is the Nirvanic body itself.

[Kirtanman]

quote:Originally posted by alwayson2

Or you use meditation and pranayama AFTER you realize nonduality to obtain rainbow body.

Did someone say something about rainbow body?

How do meditation and pranayama factor in to this discussion?

[alwayson2]

You said that meditation and pranayama are for low level practitioners and for before one realizes nonduality.  

I disagree with both of those statements.

[alwayson2]

quote:Originally posted by manigma

quote:Originally posted by alwayson2
But to answer your question, the drive to obtain rainbow body comes from compassion to help infinite sentient beings.  

I do know the REAL methods to achieve rainbow body.

Compassion is a by-product of realization.

That is why the 7 bodies are released at Mahaparinirvana... the ultimate compassion that goes on working eternally.

I don't think there are any "methods" to achieve it.

The only method is to give up all methods. - Master Rose

Well you can't attain Rainbow Body unless you reach the 7th body... which is the Nirvanic body itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen#Rigpa.2C_Dependent_Origination_and_Rainbow_Body

[Kirtanman]

Hi Alwayson,

quote:Originally posted by alwayson2

You said that meditation and pranayama are for low level practitioners and for before one realizes nonduality.  

I disagree with both of those statements.

Actually, I said:


"And, please remember: even the Yoga Sutras and Shiva Sutras talk about high, medium and low readiness levels. Higher readiness-level practitioners can just hear the truth (we are formless awareness, ever-free of the forms occurring within our true nature), and be liberated into the fulfilled conscious that was obscured by identification with mental constructs (vikalpas).


"Medium readiness-level practitioners were said to need to start with inquiry, and lower-level practitioners were said to need to start with form practices (pranayama, meditation, etc.).

In our modern societies, because we're so externalized, most of us likely will benefit most from starting with form practices, such as spinal breathing and deep meditation (try to imagine, if you care to {anyone reading}, just how much louder, faster and externalized life is now, compared to, say, the 2nd Century B.C.E, when the Yoga Sutras are said to have been written).

This doesn't mean we're at a "lower readiness level"; just more externalized, due to the dynamics of modern society.

I started there; the result is the same."

(Current emphasis added. ~KM)

I feel that the detail in the quote above covers what I meant to convey clearly, but if you don't, Alwayson, I'll be happy to try to clarify further.

In my experience, and in Kashmir Shaivism, and to an extent in AYP also, practices mirror and support one's familiarity and experience with subtle levels of consciousness, or lack thereof, and/or level of realization.

When someone thinks they're the body-mind, form practices are the best place to start; they provide the most support from the most "angles", so to speak.

As inner silence/witness consciousness is unveiled, inquiry becomes the most important practice, with form-practices continuing to provide the support they're designed to provide -- in a similar manner to how a musician or athlete (ideally) doesn't move away from the basics, just because they're ready for more advanced aspects of their area of discipline.

Finally, our true nature as the purity (your term) beyond mind, aka thought-free, non-reflective awareness is realized, and the primary practice (if it can be called that) involves a natural and ever-deepening sustaining of thought-free awareness as our natural state.

There comes a point when we actually are this clarity, and it is infinitely more real (aka real) than the non-reality of feeling that we were only the limited body-mind ever could have been dreamed.

This conditioning of being the clarity/awareness beyond mind doesn't mean thoughts don't happen; it means attachment to thoughts occurs less and less, because, experiencing that we are actually awareness (or, if you prefer, purity or clarity, beyond mind), there is no longer belief in the ego-thought, and it is seen that all such vacillations "go with the body-mind", just as respiration and digestion "go with the body-mind".

Pragmatically, body-mind is still here, of course, as a focus of certain experiences in the waking state - we just no longer confuse its fluctuations with the whole of reality, and we've realized that the wholeness of awareness (aka clarity, aka purity) is what we actually are, now - with consciousness being its "body", just as the physical body is the body for consciousness ---- true subject (purity/awareness), true cognition (consciousness), true object (body-mind/form).


"The body is the perceptible."
~Shiva Sutras

That which changes occurs within this that doesn't change.

This that doesn't change is this that we each and all actually ever are, now.

What I call "enlightenment" is the point where we are the purity/clarity (beyond mind, as you have accurately pointed out, Alwayson), and no longer mistake ourselves for occurrences (the fluctuations collectively thought of as body-mind) that are happening within this purity/clarity that we actually are now (aka wholeness, aka non-duality).

 (and it doesn't really matter where the "line" is drawn, or what it's called; all that matters is: are we living unbound in the {very real} freedom beyond imagination, or does attention still attach to dream imagination?)

In wholeness, there's nothing to get, not even a rainbow body -- and no comprehension that there could be; that's why and how it's wholeness.

Wholeness is what we actually are now.

I still feel rainbow body is a euphemism for the purity/clarity/wholeness.

Even if the fantastic stories (of "only hair and fingernails remaining" and such) are true -- how are they important? Those are occurrences at the level of form -- occurring within the very mind/consciousness that you (Alwayson) have been warning us against identifying with.

I can tell you: no specific experience is needed to know ourselves as the wholeness.

That's because we actually are wholeness; even the deeply-seated idea-sense (the ego) that we're not wholeness ... happens within the wholeness we are, now.

And, by the way, I (or rather, "this body-mind") still do pranayama (spinal breathing) and deep meditation daily -- but they're not practices; practices imply "on the way" to something/somewhere (which is actually the journey without distance of unveiling what we actually are) -- and I know myself as the ultimate (purity/clarity) beyond mind, and experience this; the journey is complete; I'm home - and experience all manifestation, including this body-mind, as happening within the wholeness I am.

Yogani has said that spinal breathing and deep meditation continue for him, too; Adyashanti has said sitting in silence happens for him; Nisargadatta conducted guru puja each morning.

None of these activities imply that there's still seeking, or still something to get; the one who was seeking to get has dissolved as the dream it is; activities happen within and as aspects of the wholeness that is writing and reading these words --- there is no non-wholeness in reality.

I hope this helps clarify.

Wholeheartedly,

Kirtanman

[Kirtanman]

quote:Originally posted by alwayson2

An image viewed in a mirror, does not affect the mirror.  A crystal ball placed on a red cloth is not affected by the color.  

The impure mind similarly does not affect the primordial purity of That.  

Do not be confused by self-inquiry of Ramana Maharishi or other modern nonduality teachings.

I still respectfully disagree with your basic premise in this thread --- that Ramana Maharshi and other non-duality teachings do not emphasize that our true nature is ever free from, and ever unaffected by, the fluctuations in consciousness/mind.

Ramana Maharshi most certainly emphasizes this; so did Nisargadatta Maharaj, so do modern Kashmir Shaiva teachers and groups, so do the other non-affiliated advaita teachers with whom I'm familiar -- and they all state it about as simply and clearly as it can be stated, I'd say.

I don't know why you feel this is the case (that they don't teach or emphasize this, and therefore could "confuse" people).

I do agree with your analogy, and your feeling of importance regarding the emphasis that our true nature is beyond body-mind, and that body-mind (and all form) happen within the wholeness of purity (clarity, awareness; whatever term is applied to it).

That's why liberation in this life actually is liberation in this life; we are ever free from actually being the concept called "just a human being" (or "just a universe", or "just {anything else}") - we're the source, the wholeness, and the inherent freedom thereof -- ever-liberated, and therefore ever-free to create-enjoy this beautiful living ever-freshly happening within.

Wholeheartedly,

Kirtanman



PS- If your objection is all about the word "Awareness" (Ramana tended to use the term Self, primarily, just fyi, rather than "awareness"), I'm guessing you'll find that's kind of a lost cause. In a similar manner to the word "enlightenment" ... it may not be the best term, but it's the main one used by most people, in most systems, and will likely continue to be, I'm guessing.

[Christi]

Hi Kirtanman,

 

quote:Hi Christi,

Good to see you!



I find the teachings of Ramana Maharshi to be powerful, clear and effective.

I don't think Yogani was criticizing Ramana as much as certain neo-Advaitins, who say there is nothing to do, at all. I actually can't think of the last time I heard anyone say this, which may be a bit of a testament to how effective the "just do nothing" approach actually is.

Have you read Yogani's book on Self-inquiry?

[alwayson2]

quote:Originally posted by Kirtanman

I still respectfully disagree with your basic premise in this thread --- that Ramana Maharshi and other non-duality teachings do not emphasize that our true nature is ever free from, and ever unaffected by, the fluctuations in consciousness/mind.

I am just saying they are more confusing than other teachings.

[alwayson2]

quote:Originally posted by Kirtanman

Even if the fantastic stories (of "only hair and fingernails remaining" and such) are true -- how are they important? Those are occurrences at the level of form -- occurring within the very mind/consciousness that you (Alwayson) have been warning us against identifying with.

In my opinion, rainbow body is pretty important.  Realizing nonduality is just step one.  The methods for rainbow body attainment are known very well.  And the methods have nothing to do with mind.  

I had a pet theory that the AYP star could also be used to obtain rainbow body but this is not one of the real methods.

[manigma]

quote:Originally posted by alwayson2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen#Rigpa.2C_Dependent_Origination_and_Rainbow_Body

Having completed the four visions before death, the individual does not die at all, but his or her physical body gradually disappears for an external observer, while being able to exist and abide wherever and whenever as pointed by one's compassion.

Yes, that's what I meant too. This is Mahaparinirvana.

I meditate with Lord Shiva, Lord Buddha and Osho every morning.

I sit in front of Lord Shiva.  Lord Buddha is on left and Osho on right.

And then we all merge and disappear into nothingness.

I have mentioned about the Light in my body earlier:
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=7919

Its still the same. Always.

I am like a pregnant woman conceived with Light. And my joy is uncomparable with any other joy of the world.

[Kirtanman]

quote:Originally posted by Christi

Hi Kirtanman,

 

quote:Hi Christi,

Good to see you!



I find the teachings of Ramana Maharshi to be powerful, clear and effective.

I don't think Yogani was criticizing Ramana as much as certain neo-Advaitins, who say there is nothing to do, at all. I actually can't think of the last time I heard anyone say this, which may be a bit of a testament to how effective the "just do nothing" approach actually is.

Have you read Yogani's book on Self-inquiry?

I have.

Reading your initial post, I had that same question regarding whether or not you have read it.

Have you?